Ben Johnson is a Disaster

[Bad Gopher]

Fair enough but you are in a distinct minority. You may be right about the up and coming talent. But they have to be given some direction and identity, which is clearly lacking right now. As I said before, optimism based on a future two years out is not worth what it once was.

I keep thinking we should give Johnson the same pass we gave Haskins the first couple years, which included--if I remember this right--the longest losing streak in program history. Transfer rules or no, it's not easy to assemble a functional team, especially from the bare shelf BJ started with last year. That said, Clem coached them to the Sweet Sixteen in his third year. If you know what you're doing as a coach, that kind of turnaround isn't just possible; it's practically expected. You don't hire Ben Johnson or anyone if you don't believe there's going to be some glory in the medium term. You don't hire a first-time head coach if you don't think they're a coaching prodigy with uncommon abilities just waiting for an opportunity. At some point, you have to show some results, and as I've said in other threads, it's totally fair to compare him to other second-year head coaches.

 

[cjbfbp]

If it takes four years to get back to the level of a bad Richard Pitino team, you have made the wrong hire.

In fairness, they're at the level of the worst Pitino teams right now. I don't think this team is any worse than Pitino's worst team (2015-16). I was hoping that I wouldn't see anything like that again but here we are. At least Pitino's worst team did have one great shooter (Joey King) and one great rebounder (freshman Murphy).

But, if it takes 4 years to get to the level of an average Pitino team, that certainly will not be worth the wait.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

This. People calling for CBJs head this early don't deserve an opinion. What I'm seeing is a team void of experience. We're missing a leader on the team and that's because we have a bunch of freshman. Neither Garcia nor Battle are stepping up to fill the spot. I think Cooper will progressively play himself into that role. Hopefully he sticks around next year. But there are a lot of nice pieces on this team. And even more talent coming in. Going to need better guard play though.

I understand that they are young…but our offensive / defensive schemes suck, our effort is garbage, we can’t make free throws…there are so many basic things that you can’t just revert to saying it’s all youth and we lack a leader. He can’t coach. Plus, his roster construction (as he is also the GM of the program) is horrendous. If this was pro sports and he was the GM of the team and someone else was the coach and he provided the coach with this roster that contained no guards with speed (which is a must and someone who played college basketball knows that…as he did), he would be fired as the GM)..

Which comes to…maybe he can recruit, but he clearly doesn’t think of roster construction (as we still don’t have a true PG with speed coming next year) or roster construction …massive logjam of Forwards and Centers… but he can’t coach offensive and defensive schemes effectively to produce winning basketball.

 

[Bad Gopher]

In fairness, they're at the level of the worst Pitino teams right now. I don't think this team is any worse than Pitino's worst team (2015-16). I was hoping that I wouldn't see anything like that again but here we are. At least Pitino's worst team did have one great shooter (Joey King) and one great rebounder (freshman Murphy).

But, if it takes 4 years to get to the level of an average Pitino team, that certainly will not be worth the wait.

At least Pitino's worst team--arguably the worst team in program history--pulled a glorious upset of a top-5 team out of their asses when they beat Maryland. If this team accomplishes anything remotely that awesome, we might be able to say that this doesn't eclipse that squad as the worst ever. At this point, though, barring an impressive turnaround, this is the worst thing I've ever seen here.

 

[bga1]

Musselman was the totally beyond obvious choice.

100% right. It would have taken 4 million plus a year- but he would have loved to do it. He never got a phone call. 4 million a year sounds obscene- in fact it is obscene....but so is a half empty arena every game. 6000 sets x $40 ticket x 20 games = $4.8 million per year difference between where we are and the optimal result. Then add the other financial benefits that go with winning....

We have such a losers mentality here that we think we could never get or deserve a coach like that. He could have come here and brought back memories of what his dad got going here. They would have sold 12,000 season tickets in a week.

 

[MennoSota]

I know a ton about college basketball. Lots of freshman get better but not the amount of better that we will need. I saw a hell of a lot more out of the Michigan freshman last night than I did ours.

The thought that everything becomes good when they aren't freshman is a risky game, sir!

Also, you put up a few offensive numbers, but these guys can't defend a potted plant right now. I'd worry more about that.

I was at the game last night. It was ugly and Michigan shot lights out. Their freshman point guard made Cooper look slow. But, the main factor is Dickenson who is a very very good basketball player.
There wasn't much positive to take away from last night. Garcia looks lost and settles for 3s. Battle is not good when he has to dribble the ball. He needs a guard who can move the ball and get the defense off balance so he can catch and shoot. Cooper needs to be more selfish, but he is clearly the best player on the court right now. He had some great passes and is a good shooter. He is not terribly quick, however. Both Ola Joseph and Payne are fearless competitors and are fun to watch. They both make dumb rookie mistakes, but they are fearless. Henley is lost, still playing AAU ball in his mind. His 360 spin move for no apparent purpose was laughable in the 2nd half. Yes, I laughed. Carrington just can't buy a bucket.
We will get mauled by Mississippi State but then we have some time before Wisconsin to regroup. This team needs to focus on improvement to play in their tournament, which is the B1G tourney.

 

[golfing18now]

In fairness, they're at the level of the worst Pitino teams right now. I don't think this team is any worse than Pitino's worst team (2015-16). I was hoping that I wouldn't see anything like that again but here we are. At least Pitino's worst team did have one great shooter (Joey King) and one great rebounder (freshman Murphy).

But, if it takes 4 years to get to the level of an average Pitino team, that certainly will not be worth the wait.

Good point here.

For me an appearance on Weakling Wednesday is the definition of a bad year in the Big Ten. We certainly had a number of those under the Pitino era. The most obvious was the year three team we keep referencing. This team is on par with that team. A couple of the other Pitino years had promise and then slid dramatically in late January/February. I don't think we have to worry about not appearing on Weakling Wednesday this year. Another year like that next year and I'd have a hard time seeing a positive trajectory for this regime.

 

[Johnnyboy18]

100% right. It would have taken 4 million plus a year- but he would have loved to do it. He never got a phone call. 4 million a year sounds obscene- in fact it is obscene....but so is a half empty arena every game. 6000 sets x $40 ticket x 20 games = $4.8 million per year difference between where we are and the optimal result. Then add the other financial benefits that go with winning....

We have such a losers mentality here that we think we could never get or deserve a coach like that. He could have come here and brought back memories of what his dad got going here. They would have sold 12,000 season tickets in a week.

Musselman was not coming here. The more you say it doesn't make it true.

 

[bc2211]

I keep thinking we should give Johnson the same pass we have Haskins the first couple years, which included--if I remember this right--the longest losing streak in program history. Transfer rules or no, it's not easy to assemble a functional team, especially from the bare shelf BJ started with last year. That said, Clem coached them to the Sweet Sixteen in his third year. If you know what you're doing as a coach, that kind of turnaround isn't just possible; it's practically expected. You don't hire Ben Johnson or anyone if you don't believe there's going to be some glory in the medium term. You don't hire a first-time head coach if you don't think they're a coaching prodigy with uncommon abilities just waiting for an opportunity. At some point, you have to show some results, and as I've said in other threads, it's totally fair to compare him to other second-year head coaches.

That’s an interesting way to look at it. You could argue the money wasn’t there to aim higher, though?

Ultimately, the deck is stacked against BJ, and even after he is successful at bringing in guys that can compete in the big ten (btw, I believe he’s doing an unexpectedly good job in this regard), he still has to outcoach:

- multiple guys likely to be hall of fame coaches
- coaches with direct lines to the nba, as players and executives
- guys who have been coaching in the same place and system for BJ’s entire adult life
- recent hires who have won more as assistants or head coaches elsewhere
- a big ten with coaches whose current contracts are valued 30%-465% higher than his own.

 

[bga1]

Thanks for your specific markers. That’s credible to me. You’re more patient than I am but if they hit them it bodes well for actually keeping the quality players in the program.

If we go, God forbid, 3-17 in the Big Ten- how on earth does he convince players to return AND get a high end transfer guard in here to lead this team.

The strategy we are taking now worked well for Clem in the late 1980s and Clem had a couple teams that looked this bad or worse when he started. But this is the age of free agency......... With the guys Ben is recruiting, I feel like he could get this done if they all stay the course. That's the hardest part now.

 

[RockChalk]

This isn’t a youth issue, this is a coaching and roster construction issue. It’s not going to get much better next season.

When you hire someone who doesn’t have any credentials to be a B1G coach, this is what you get. This is the worst Gopher basketball team I’ve seen in my lifetime.

YUP, look at who he mentored under. NO ONE!!!

In comparison to the past, on a scale from 1-10. Recruiting maybe an 8. Coaching maybe a 2

 

[bga1]

Musselman was not coming here. The more you say it doesn't make it true.

Says you. They never tried. That I know to be true. He would have been interested, that I also know to be true. Don't ask me how I know.

 

[RockChalk]

On a good note, Christmas Vacation is on and Julia Louise Dreyfus got smacked by the Rotweiler.

Four Christmases is the best!!! Vince Vaughn is great in this movie.

 

[formerlybis]

If you look on t-rank this morning, the first 13 B1G teams are all in the top 87 (and Michy is 11th on that list which means weakling Wednesday). Then there’s 104 teams between Nebraska and the 14th team.

I think most people are saying they agree that getting the young talent some experience is important. But, I keep thinking about Rutgers when Pikiell took over- they didn’t win much, but their defensive numbers were good and improving. No one sees what the Gophers are trying to be good at. Even last year, which everyone seems to perceive as “grittier”, the numbers sucked.

I would view progress as getting either offensive or defensive efficiency into the double digits of rank. They’re currently 225 and 165.

 

[Bad Gopher]

That’s an interesting way to look at it. You could argue the money wasn’t there to aim higher, though?

Ultimately, the deck is stacked against BJ, and even after he is successful at bringing in guys that can compete in the big ten (btw, I believe he’s doing an unexpectedly good job in this regard), he still has to outcoach:

- multiple guys likely to be hall of fame coaches
- coaches with direct lines to the nba, as players and executives
- guys who have been coaching in the same place and system for BJ’s entire adult life
- recent hires who have won more as assistants or head coaches elsewhere
- a big ten with coaches whose current contracts are valued 30%-465% higher than his own.

These are all explanations of why Johnson and Minnesota can't be expected to compete in this league. Why are we even in this league? With this approach and attitude, if the Big Ten doesn't kick us out, we should find another conference more our speed.

Smith or Medved would have signed up for less than what Ben is making. We could have paid Matt Lewis in chickens if you wanted to hire an up-and-comer. At least he has head-coaching experience.

 

[RockChalk]

I'm still struggling to connect last year to this year and believe that the same staff coached both teams. Last year's team was far more sound, ran offense that got guys good looks and easy baskets, and defended well for their physicality, including and especially from the perimeter. This year's team looks like a hapless new staff took over. What gives? This is a big a mystery as I've seen, and I've watched sports for a lot of years.

More than a few people I've talked to say something like, this team looks off...although nobody can put their finger on what's wrong. I realize this post probably begins in one of those other "what's wrong with this team" threads, but I find it difficult to judge Johnson with so many questions about just which of these two seasons we should judge him by.

GREAT post!!!

 

[Bad Gopher]

Says you. They never tried. That I know to be true. He would have been interested, that I also know to be true. Don't ask me how I know.

I think what you're hearing is that some people on this board would have at least made the call while others would have been afraid to pick up the phone if they were Coyle. Maybe it's a type of personality. I personally think it's the telecommunications age, and you don't even pay extra for long distance anymore. Why not just try.

 

[Bad Gopher]

GREAT post!!!

I'd like to thank the academy...

 

[Dupreefor3]

This isn’t a youth issue, this is a coaching and roster construction issue. It’s not going to get much better next season.

When you hire someone who doesn’t have any credentials to be a B1G coach, this is what you get. This is the worst Gopher basketball team I’ve seen in my lifetime.

There's definitely roster construction issue, and the coaches deserve heat for that. This is a guards game and our guard play is poor and the supposed strength of our team (Battle and Garcia) are not delivering, nor do they seem to fit together. Freshman are cming along nicely but from the results stand point that's not going to matter if we don't get it from Cooper, Garcia and Battle. Cooper shoots it alot better than I anticipated, I don't really have a problem with how he facilitates the offense, his strengths are negated if guys aren't making shots, but him and Garcia ain't it on defense. Next year they're going to need someone next to Cooper who can guard quick one's and have the speed to beat their man off the dribble. Garcia and Battle just don't fit together, Battle wasn't engaged or doing anything to get open last night, Garcia too slow to guard anything that isn't afive and he's too soft to play the five. On paper I don't blame Ben for taking him a lot of talent, him and Cooper on paper have good credentials as transfers, but it's clearly not working and I don't see that aspect getting any better. Alot of people got that wrong but the staff gets paid to get it right more than they get it wrong and between that and letting the Freshman take their lumps, it's been a bad recipe for success. I think the High School recruiting has been good in the 2022 and 2023 classes. Payne has been everything the Ryan James hype train made him out to be. JOJ been a pleasent surprise. Carrington reminds me alot of Austin Hollins as a Freshman, similar build, plays a similar style. I believe he will get better. Henley doing the one step forweard two steps back thing right now. He flashes at times and you see what he can become , but he's not ready to play this year, so there's going to be painful moments like the last two games with him. Treyton, he's playing his way into either transferring out or being happy as the 12th/13th man on the bench, he will not play if Fox is healthy and when Evans here. Overall, it's too early to throw in the towel, this isn't the worst gopher team in any of our lifetimes, not even close, Ben played on a worse won in 03-04, 05-06, 06-07, 15-16. Post Madison 85-86, 86-87 and 87-88 were god awful years. post Reggie Lynch 2017-18 was bad and we had two all timers for this program still healthy for that one. I'm not going to defend last nights effort, especially defensive end, it may have answered some truths about veteran players that are going to be tough pills swallow.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

You guys don't know anything about college basketball. Or you're closeted Badger fans. If you listen to what I say, you might learn something.

The ONLY thing that matters this year is getting our freshmen experience. Then next year we add 2 more good recruits. Then the year after is when we should look to win big.

Don't watch the games and get all emotional.

Last night was another good result. Ola-Joseph once again did well...11 points on 4/7 shooting and 5 rebounds. And Payne had 15 points on 6/6 shooting in 21 minutes. These are very good results at this early point. (Carrington did well last game...so it was nice to see Payne do well this game.)

Yeah, it was awesome.

 

[cjbfbp]

At least Pitino's worst team--arguably the worst team in program history--pulled a glorious upset of a top-5 team out of their asses when they beat Maryland. If this team accomplishes anything remotely that awesome, we might be able to say that this doesn't eclipse that squad as the worst ever. At this point, though, barring an impressive turnaround, this is the worst thing I've ever seen here.

Yes, but that upset didn't come until the 26th game of the season; they were winless in the Big Ten prior to that game. They won their next game too (against the worst Rutgers' team of their Big Ten tenure) but after that the wheels fell off (suspensions and injuries). The loss margins of their first five Big Ten games that season were as follows:

1) OSU (-15)
2) MSU (-8)
3) PSU (-9)
4) Northwestern (-25)
5) Nebraska (-25)

I think they'll probably put it together for a couple of wins in this conference season. Unfortunately, there isn't a team as bad as that Rutgers team in the conference this year.

 

[tikited]

Exactly. Some of these posters have zero patience. They'd rather trade in all the promise of our freshman class for a few more upper classmen transfers and finish 12th or 13th in the conference rather than build from the ground up with a roster of players that were recruited by some of the more successful programs in the nation.

I don't see anyone saying Ben needs to get rid of the young kids.
You need both youth and experience. Ben absolutely needs o bring in a few more experienced guys next year or it will be a repeat of this year.

 

[gopherhoopsguy]

A disaster as most of us predicted! Give a job not earned is the problem. There was absolutely nothing on his resume that said he was a big time college coach. Here we sit with probably the 2 worst college coaches at any university

 

[tikited]

Musselman was not coming here. The more you say it doesn't make it true.

I think his point was that they didn't even try to get him.

 

[kg21]

These are all explanations of why Johnson and Minnesota can't be expected to compete in this league. Why are we even in this league? With this approach and attitude, if the Big Ten doesn't kick us out, we should find another conference more our speed.

Smith or Medved would have signed up for less than what Ben is making. We could have paid Matt Lewis in chickens if you wanted to hire an up-and-comer. At least he has head-coaching experience.

Well, to sum things up right now. I posted this in another thread.

I am so grateful to not have to play St. Thomas. We would get beat.

 

[howeda7]

I think what you're hearing is that some people on this board would have at least made the call while others would have been afraid to pick up the phone if they were Coyle. Maybe it's a type of personality. I personally think it's the telecommunications age, and you don't even pay extra for long distance anymore. Why not just try.

Coyle not at least making a phone call to Musselman is unacceptable if true.

 

[topos]

Ben has a vision, and we owe him one more season (2023/2024) to prove the ship is headed in the right direction. Beyond that, I don't think anything should be guaranteed.

I think Ben's biggest flaw on this year's team is the upperclassman transfers. Upon landing the HC job, Ben preached:

• Toughness
• Grittiness

I think it's widespread for freshmen (even talented ones) not to understand the intensity it takes to be consistently successful in a D1 program. You see this frequently with teams like Memphis and Kentucky. Everyone on the roster is a future NBA player, but they can't seem to put the pieces together and often miss the tourney.

For Ben, it was crucial to bring in a few upperclassmen that embodied his vision. Samuels, Garcia, and Cooper are not that. And quite frankly, Battle isn't that either. These guys should be setting the tone (especially defensively) and setting an example for the younger players.

As fans, we should be raving about their hustle and effort, not praying that Ben subs in JOJ to see some resemblance of a player caring.

Ben is a "player's coach," but to get this team back on the rails next year, he will have to have some difficult conversations with his upperclassmen, which will likely upset them.

I know there were talks about Cooper and Garcia only playing this year and forgoing their future eligibility. Honestly, that would probably be best for all involved unless they are genuinely bought into more minor reserve roles as the talent improves (via freshman AND portal).

I feel like next year; the transfer portal is basically a do-over for this year's blunders. The pressure is on to get it right with a budding young and inexperienced core.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Let the Big Ten in season loss countdown to 33 begin. 31 til Ben’s NW team is no longer the record holder.

 

[tikited]

I know there were talks about Cooper and Garcia only playing this year and forgoing their future eligibility. Honestly, that would probably be best for all involved unless they are genuinely bought into more minor reserve roles as the talent improves (via freshman AND portal).

I feel like next year; the transfer portal is basically a do-over for this year's blunders. The pressure is on to get it right with a budding young and inexperienced core.

I think they really need Copper to stay. Garcia should go though. Payne needs to start next year and Garcia is in the way.

 

[golfing18now]

Let the Big Ten in season loss countdown to 33 begin. 31 til Ben’s NW team is no longer the record holder.

Is this a consecutive conference games loss streak? If so, you are missing the five losses that ended last year (four if you don't count the conference tournament).