Band Question

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When you watch our games on tv, our band sounds awful. They sound great in person. Even the small sections they have marching thru the lots before the game sound great. But on tv it sounds like a crummy alumni band, not a bold bright 200 person band. So I assume this has something to do with where the microphones are that feed the tv. Is this something that can be addressed? Does anyone else notice this? I feel that other schools' bands sound so much better on tv, such as osu, mich, and wisky even. It's like you can only hear our trumpets or something.
 

I think they sound weak in the stadium too. Just my opinion. At halftime you can hardly hear them. The only time I can really hear them is during the game when I am standing right next to them in the student section.
 

In fairness, it happened to Iowa yesterday also. Cannot remember which network. I have been complaining about this for a year or two. I blamed it on Joel Maturi, but he is gone now so I have to find a new whipping post. Back in the day when ABC used to broadcast games, they never had a problem generating a good audio feed of the marching band. This was when they actually televised the marching bands during half time. Shows you how old I am. So this is 1960s technology which has since been lost / destroyed by ESPN and the Big Ten Network. Amazingly enough, they don't have this problem with "The Victors", "Fight On USC", "Across the Field", or the "Notre Dame Fight Song." I wonder why? I attribute this to the same "false technology" argument for clipping the top and bottom of the ESPN / BTN football feed if you don't pay for HDTV. They could fix this in an instant, but it is a marketing / revenue strategy.
 

I think the production from the Big 10 Network is short on engineering staff and microphone jockeys. My case in point, you watch any golf tournement and they have microphones on each tee and have a guy with a torpedo mike in the fairway pointing at the player to get the whip of the club and the click of the ball. The technology is available, maybe the electrical engineers at the U could have it as a project.
 

husker70 said:
I think the production from the Big 10 Network is short on engineering staff and microphone jockeys. My case in point, you watch any golf tournement and they have microphones on each tee and have a guy with a torpedo mike in the fairway pointing at the player to get the whip of the club and the click of the ball. The technology is available, maybe the electrical engineers at the U could have it as a project.
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Yes, I guess this is my point. The u should be proactive and put in their own mikes, in the optimal spot, and let the networks use their feed.
 


I thought the band sound was excellent on TV yesterday. Much improved compared to last year.
 

afurry91 said:
I think they sound weak in the stadium too. Just my opinion. At halftime you can hardly hear them. The only time I can really hear them is during the game when I am standing right next to them in the student section.
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The big ten network does not do a very good job mic'ing the band. There are only two microphones set up at the back of the band pit, which only give you sound of base drums and maybe a stray horn or two on TV. All the sound is projecting out to the field and sidelines. Other big ten bands have the advantage of either being elevated in the stands or not surrounded by concrete walls. Therefore, espn and BTN has easier access to set up mic's.

As for halftime, sound waves will cut the strongest in the direction in which an instrument is facing. This is why the band tries to rotate during halftime shows and play to all sides of the stadium. If you are on the home side in the upper deck, you probably get the fullest sound. The student section will not. Further, if you wish to enjoy the full volume of any marching band (drum corps included), you cannot talk during the halftime show. Trying to play over 47-50k people who are talking during halftime is not possible.
 

TLHGO4 said:
I thought the band sound was excellent on TV yesterday. Much improved compared to last year.
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I agree, the pregame sounded great. In the past I've noticed that the mics seem to pick up one section or (worse) one player rather than the homogeneous sound of the band as a whole. Something about the technique or type of microphones being used is the problem, not the band itself (unless they are in charge of mic'ing the band)
 

Gopherdrummer said:
The big ten network does not do a very good job mic'ing the band. There are only two microphones set up at the back of the band pit, which only give you sound of base drums and maybe a stray horn or two on TV. All the sound is projecting out to the field and sidelines. Other big ten bands have the advantage of either being elevated in the stands or not surrounded by concrete walls. Therefore, espn and BTN has easier access to set up mic's.

As for halftime, sound waves will cut the strongest in the direction in which an instrument is facing. This is why the band tries to rotate during halftime shows and play to all sides of the stadium. If you are on the home side in the upper deck, you probably get the fullest sound. The student section will not. Further, if you wish to enjoy the full volume of any marching band (drum corps included), you cannot talk during the halftime show. Trying to play over 47-50k people who are talking during halftime is not possible.
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Can they not put some mics on the goal posts?
 



The band pit is the most horribly designed feature in the entire stadium.

Put an an orchestra in a sunken pit surrounded by concrete walls and I don't care how big they are as a group
it will swallow the sound. I'm thinking some genious thought it would be a good idea to seperate the band from the stands without doing any audio testing. You know seperate the "paying" customers from the freebie band section. Concrete is good for absorbing sound when it is sloped downward instead of at a steep upward angle.
Down low and surrounded by concrete, want to guess where all of the sound projects to, straight down to the ground or it get's absorbed right into the pit. They need to rip that concrete out or pull the band out of it and put students in that section and the band in the stands in the corner. The only way the sound will project out over the field is if they get out of that ridiculous pit. That or they need to take some sound panels, some Vinyl boards over the concrete.
The band does sounds best when they are on the field you can really hear them quite well in the upper decks as that is where the sound carries best to. Funny thing is you can hear them best of all in the concourse if you stand at the top of the first deck on the home side, it's like having the best seats at a concert. You can hear them better than sitting in the stands even with all of the talking and commotion going on. I still hear them much better in TCF, than I ever did in the Metrodome. The band pit is a woefull design.
 

gopherdudepart2 said:
Put an an orchestra in a sunken pit surrounded by concrete walls and I don't care how big they are as a group
it will swallow the sound. I'm thinking some genious thought it would be a good idea to seperate the band from the stands without doing any audio testing. You know seperate the "paying" customers from the freebie band section. Concrete is good for absorbing sound when it is sloped downward instead of at a steep upward angle.
Down low and surrounded by concrete, want to guess where all of the sound projects to, straight down to the ground or it get's absorbed right into the pit. They need to rip that concrete out or pull the band out of it and put students in that section and the band in the stands in the corner. The only way the sound will project out over the field is if they get out of that ridiculous pit. That or they need to take some sound panels, some Vinyl boards over the concrete.
The band does sounds best when they are on the field you can really hear them quite well in the upper decks as that is where the sound carries best to. Funny thing is you can hear them best of all in the concourse if you stand at the top of the first deck on the home side, it's like having the best seats at a concert. You can hear them better than sitting in the stands even with all of the talking and commotion going on. I still hear them much better in TCF, than I ever did in the Metrodome. The band pit is a woefull design.
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The intention of the band pit by the architects was to allow the band to be "part" of the student section without obstructing the view of students standing behind them with tubas. Many rows behind the band in the student section at the Dome were empty because you couldn't see over the tubas. Additionally, the pit allows the band to access the field more efficiently

That said, there are plenty of cons to the pit. First, it is too small. Hence why a section of the band stands in the "skybox" off to the side of the pit that once held students during the first season at TCF. HOK didn't factor in that a flute player takes up less space than a tuba player or a tenor drummer. Sure, the students can see over the tubas. But, the tubas don't have room to actually set their horns down (a luxury they had in the Dome). Second, the sound gets projected straight ahead. The only advantage to this is the Football team has confirmed many times that when the band is playing as loud as possible during third or fourth downs on defense, no one can hear anything on the field.

TCF was engineered to sound as loud as possible on the field. You know, that whole home field advantage thing.
 

Pre-game was really good last Saturday. I supposed they didn't want to waste seats for paying customers by having obstructions.
The sound, it would be loud for everybody if the pit was not sunken with the concrete surrounding, that sucks literally the sound away
from the stands.
I figured it projects to the field from the pit. Just like the sound projects to the concourse level at halftime when the band faces the home side. The music is really loud at the top of the stands.
That pit, it is too small for a group with over 300 members. Band is plenty loud outside of the stadium or even on the field during the pre-game. It is only when they are in the pit that the sound plays to the field and the open end of the stadium.
I kid you not go stand at the top of the stands or just above the seats in the concourse level at halftime, it is like being at a concert
with reallly good seats, you can hear everything.
 

I suggest that the U "flip" the band with the fans on the open end.... 300 seats for 300 or whatever the actual number needs to be.... The band playing towards the closed end will help sound everywhere...
 



gopherdudepart2 said:
It would be loud for everybody if the pit was not sunken. I figured it projects to the field from the pit. Just like the sound projects to the concourse level at halftime when the band faces the home side. The music is really loud at the top of the stands.
That pit, it is too small for a group with over 300 members. Band is plenty loud outside of the stadium or even on the field during the pre-game. It is only when they are in the pit that the sound plays to the field and the open end of the stadium.
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I agree. The pit is a good idea, yet poorly executed. Having no concrete walls, and placing the band in the away side corner would have had a better effect. Purdue and Wisconsin place there bands on the field level, but in bleachers. You can hear them marginally better during the game (the whole giant crowd cheering while a 300 piece band is playing).

Too late for that kind of change now given season ticket sales.
 

Maverick said:
I suggest that the U "flip" the band with the fans on the open end.... 300 seats for 300 or whatever the actual number needs to be.... The band playing towards the closed end will help sound everywhere...
Click to expand...

Give them a few accordions and they'll fit right in with the beer garden.
:drink:
 

Sorry Iceland12, I guess we found something to whine about.

As someone mentioned above, lining the the concrete with sound panels seems like an inexpensive solution.

I was in the band during the The Dome years. The mics above the band always varied with location and heighth. Probably had to do with swapping for Vikings and Twins, so not sure if that's a problem at TCF, but inconsistency may contribute to sound quality reception for the tv feed. I remember one game at the Dome, they placed the mics really low, couple feed above our heads. The tv feed was picking up profanity from the band -- we got a stern reprimand after halftime.
 

One thing I LOVE about the band "shell" is having them right on the field. Most stadiums have a wall behind the goalpost. It looks really awesome seeing the band behind the players with a field-view replay. For those watching at home, does it look equally awesome on tv?
 


Gopherdrummer said:
The intention of the band pit by the architects was to allow the band to be "part" of the student section without obstructing the view of students standing behind them with tubas. Many rows behind the band in the student section at the Dome were empty because you couldn't see over the tubas. Additionally, the pit allows the band to access the field more efficiently

That said, there are plenty of cons to the pit. First, it is too small. Hence why a section of the band stands in the "skybox" off to the side of the pit that once held students during the first season at TCF. HOK didn't factor in that a flute player takes up less space than a tuba player or a tenor drummer. Sure, the students can see over the tubas. But, the tubas don't have room to actually set their horns down (a luxury they had in the Dome). Second, the sound gets projected straight ahead. The only advantage to this is the Football team has confirmed many times that when the band is playing as loud as possible during third or fourth downs on defense, no one can hear anything on the field.

TCF was engineered to sound as loud as possible on the field. You know, that whole home field advantage thing.
Click to expand...
Is the band's purpose at football games simply to provide noise to the opposition or to entertain the crowd? Maybe the design of the shell does a good job of directing noise at the field, but I would argue that should be a secondary goal to making sure your fans can hear what you play.
 

Sitting in the last row of the student section I couldn't hear them at all when they were behind the goalpost. WHen they were on the field they sounded great though.
 

I asked someone I know who moved from Open end to the section in the corner by band

about the difference in sound. They moved there 4 seats from over by 145 to 135 with the exact purpose
of being able to hear the band better at least that is what his father in-law wanted. You know what he said at halftime
of the first game when I asked him if you can hear the band any better over there then in 145. He said when there on
the field you can hear them really well and they are really loud. When there in the band pit behind the goal post you
hear them about as well as you did in 145 it is about the same sound level. What does that say about the band pit when
there on exact opposite ends of the stadium. The concrete walls that surround the band clearly suck away all of the sound for the rest of the stadium. It would take money to put acoustic sound panels in the pit, not a lot but you can bet nobody want's to pay for that, not the school of music, not the athletic department, nobody. I doubt the band director cares about the perception of sound or the rest of the stadium not hearing the band real well because he is near the pit and probably has his hearing blown out by the noise. Instrumentation is not the problem our band is plenty loud, they are in a bad spot in the stadium.

I sat in 235 row 4 once last year for the Nebraska game, away from my season tickets in 144 and you could not hear the band in the second deck as well as you could in 144. How weird is that as 235 is much closer in distance yet the sound carry's better to the open end of the stadium. The poster that mentions Michigan and Ohio State, I have been to both the Big house and the Shoe, the band at Michigan is on the sidelines in the stands and there steep stadium pushes the sound up and over the fans, that is why you can hear them so well. Ohio State is a different deal there group sits in the corner near the endzone really low near the home side, but there band is composed mostly of brass instrumentation. The steep slop of there stadium and the fact that they have a nearly all brass band contributes to why you hear them so well.

The band pit and the concrete wall that surrounds them really does contribute to "Metrodome like" sound for our stadium. This is what makes a 300 piece band sound the same as when it was in the echo chamber of the Metrodome. Put the band in the stands in the corner and the students in the pit and you really would hear the difference in game day sound. For one the rouser would ring out like hail to the Victors does if it were in the stand in the corner of the stadium say taking up section 135. This will never happen though so I don't know why I mentioned it. If they did a little sound testing they would clearly see that the "PIT" surrounded by concrete is a problem, everyone's experience on gameday would be a little better even the students if they improved the PIT. People that complain about enterainment or what the band sounds like on TV would not have that complaint or perception if the pit were addressed.
 

Where did this "add sound panels" that a few of you have mentioned come from? Have you heard that as a possible plan or are guessing? I ask because it seems to make no sense. If you aren't hearing because a concrete wall is blocking the sound, adding something to the surface does nothing, it still gets blocked. "Sound panels" further dampen sound (imagine an empty room compared to one with carpet, pictures, furniture) not amplify or redirect it around walls.
 

gopherdudepart2 said:
about the difference in sound. They moved there 4 seats from over by 145 to 135 with the exact purpose
of being able to hear the band better at least that is what his father in-law wanted. You know what he said at halftime
of the first game when I asked him if you can hear the band any better over there then in 145. He said when there on
the field you can hear them really well and they are really loud. When there in the band pit behind the goal post you
hear them about as well as you did in 145 it is about the same sound level. What does that say about the band pit when
there on exact opposite ends of the stadium. The concrete walls that surround the band clearly suck away all of the sound for the rest of the stadium. It would take money to put acoustic sound panels in the pit, not a lot but you can bet nobody want's to pay for that, not the school of music, not the athletic department, nobody. I doubt the band director cares about the perception of sound or the rest of the stadium not hearing the band real well because he is near the pit and probably has his hearing blown out by the noise. Instrumentation is not the problem our band is plenty loud, they are in a bad spot in the stadium.

I sat in 235 row 4 once last year for the Nebraska game, away from my season tickets in 144 and you could not hear the band in the second deck as well as you could in 144. How weird is that as 235 is much closer in distance yet the sound carry's better to the open end of the stadium. The poster that mentions Michigan and Ohio State, I have been to both the Big house and the Shoe, the band at Michigan is on the sidelines in the stands and there steep stadium pushes the sound up and over the fans, that is why you can hear them so well. Ohio State is a different deal there group sits in the corner near the endzone really low near the home side, but there band is composed mostly of brass instrumentation. The steep slop of there stadium and the fact that they have a nearly all brass band contributes to why you hear them so well.

The band pit and the concrete wall that surrounds them really does contribute to "Metrodome like" sound for our stadium. This is what makes a 300 piece band sound the same as when it was in the echo chamber of the Metrodome. Put the band in the stands in the corner and the students in the pit and you really would hear the difference in game day sound. For one the rouser would ring out like hail to the Victors does if it were in the stand in the corner of the stadium say taking up section 135. This will never happen though so I don't know why I mentioned it. If they did a little sound testing they would clearly see that the "PIT" surrounded by concrete is a problem, everyone's experience on gameday would be a little better even the students if they improved the PIT. People that complain about enterainment or what the band sounds like on TV would not have that complaint or perception if the pit were addressed.
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The band Director, as well as his support staff actually really do care a great deal about the band being heard throughout the stadium. They have tried many different methods to solve sound issues related to the band pit given the constraints the band face (those constraints being that the school, for now, will not alter the structure of the stadium). Hence part of the band being moved into the "skybox" during games.

Dr. Diem is an advocate for trying to let the band be heard at all times during the game. He realizes how much work band members put in every week to put on every pre-game and halftime show. To say that he probably doesn't care about the perception of the sound throughout the stadium is completely untrue. He will in fact has walked around the stadium during the game to see if their attempts at a solution have had any impact on the sound issues.

Fun fact, I have been to a game at Spartan Stadium and sat in the upper deck with their band stuck in the corner. Their horns were facing towards the opposite sideline. No one in our area could hear anything that they played. Ever. This isn't a new phenomenon, it happens more often than you think.
 

FreakyDeke said:
Where did this "add sound panels" that a few of you have mentioned come from? Have you heard that as a possible plan or are guessing? I ask because it seems to make no sense. If you aren't hearing because a concrete wall is blocking the sound, adding something to the surface does nothing, it still gets blocked. "Sound panels" further dampen sound (imagine an empty room compared to one with carpet, pictures, furniture) not amplify or redirect it around walls.
Click to expand...

I also was wondering why people were suggesting acoustic sound panels. They're meant to absorb sound.

The sections directly across from the band will hear the sound the best.(as long as the band members are facing forward. Look at the direction of the horns, that is where the sound is being directed.

Stand one foot in front of your buddy blowing on his trumpet, then stand one foot to the side-you'll get the idea.

As far as the lowered pit........it was easy to figure that was going to muffle the sound.
 

FreakyDeke said:
Where did this "add sound panels" that a few of you have mentioned come from? Have you heard that as a possible plan or are guessing? I ask because it seems to make no sense. If you aren't hearing because a concrete wall is blocking the sound, adding something to the surface does nothing, it still gets blocked. "Sound panels" further dampen sound (imagine an empty room compared to one with carpet, pictures, furniture) not amplify or redirect it around walls.
Click to expand...
When someone brought it up earlier, I envisioned sound panels like they have behind an orchestra to bounce the sound back out into the audience. The sound would bounce, rather than absorb, thus amplifying rather than deadening. I'm no sound engineer, but I'm guessing that's what they meant.
 

I'm in 243 and I think the band sounds fine. I think the pros of the pit outweigh the cons. more brass and less woodwinds might helps. The bands purposes is to get people pumped up not try out the latest flute solo.
 

station19 said:
I also was wondering why people were suggesting acoustic sound panels. They're meant to absorb sound.

The sections directly across from the band will hear the sound the best.(as long as the band members are facing forward. Look at the direction of the horns, that is where the sound is being directed.

Stand one foot in front of your buddy blowing on his trumpet, then stand one foot to the side-you'll get the idea.

As far as the lowered pit........it was easy to figure that was going to muffle the sound.
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Have you never been to Orchestra Hall, or even a high school band concert? This is what they were talking about.

IMG_1511.jpg


This is inside Ted Mann. Not sure the effect this would have in a big stadium, maybe if they put something on the ground in front of the band to bounce the sound up into the crowd.

5upFmYkVrDBbwj2T0datqQNm4YFkV09rSJKu-al-gmw_300x300.jpg
 

gophmeister said:
I'm in 243 and I think the band sounds fine. I think the pros of the pit outweigh the cons. more brass and less woodwinds might helps. The bands purposes is to get people pumped up not try out the latest flute solo.
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I'm in 243!
 

gophmeister said:
I'm in 243 and I think the band sounds fine. I think the pros of the pit outweigh the cons. more brass and less woodwinds might helps. The bands purposes is to get people pumped up not try out the latest flute solo.
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The presence of flutes does not mean there are fewer trumpets. If you take away the flutes and clarinets and such their spots won't be magically filled by brass because the band doesn't have instrument quotas or limits that are filled, all are welcome.
 


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