Backing the (Wolf) Pack: Profile Of A Possible Savior: Tubby Smith

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Thanks Bleed - that's an extremely interesting article- especially regarding the ball line defense.

The problem from an amateur fan's point of view is that this defense routinely gives up the shot that has become a staple of modern college basketball- the 3 point shot. When you are giving up the 3's the opponent appears to be never out of reach of getting back into the game. As the article states, the defense can be suffocating if run to perfection. However- it also states that the very best kids - like a Chucky Hayes- take a full year to learn it and work it properly.

This is huge. That means that it is difficult if not impossible to have an impact freshman in our program. We know that Tubby does not play you unless A) you play his defense well or B) he has no choice what so ever. According to this article, it's nearly impossible to be proficient at it in your first year. It's not instinctive like regular man to man defense.

Could this be where Tubby has lost players like Bostick and Joseph? I understand that Joseph probably had other issues and love that Tubby doesn't take that garbage, but it does make you wonder if the frustration with the system leads to discipline issues. In this day where your better players are going to have shorter college careers is it wise ot run a system that has such a long learning curve? It's tought to argue with all those 20 win seasons, Tubby is obviously a good coach. The article makes an interesting assessment saying that Tubby has a "high floor and a low ceiling".
 

bga1 said:
Thanks Bleed - that's an extremely interesting article- especially regarding the ball line defense.

The problem from an amateur fan's point of view is that this defense routinely gives up the shot that has become a staple of modern college basketball- the 3 point shot. When you are giving up the 3's the opponent appears to be never out of reach of getting back into the game. As the article states, the defense can be suffocating if run to perfection. However- it also states that the very best kids - like a Chucky Hayes- take a full year to learn it and work it properly.

This is huge. That means that it is difficult if not impossible to have an impact freshman in our program. We know that Tubby does not play you unless A) you play his defense well or B) he has no choice what so ever. According to this article, it's nearly impossible to be proficient at it in your first year. It's not instinctive like regular man to man defense.

Could this be where Tubby has lost players like Bostick and Joseph? I understand that Joseph probably had other issues and love that Tubby doesn't take that garbage, but it does make you wonder if the frustration with the system leads to discipline issues. In this day where your better players are going to have shorter college careers is it wise ot run a system that has such a long learning curve? It's tought to argue with all those 20 win seasons, Tubby is obviously a good coach. The article makes an interesting assessment saying that Tubby has a "high floor and a low ceiling".
Click to expand...

Very interesting points about the complicated system, I never actually thought of it that way.

While college football is not my speciality, how much of a learning curve difference is there between, for example, a pro style offense for a QB vs. Tubby's ball-line deffense?

However, my only point in response to what you said, at least here at MN Tubby is getting a lot of 4 year guys. That means they spend a year learning as freshman then have 3 years left to contribute and he has no need to play freshman (unless, you know, people transfer) unless they are really ready. The freshman this year have been forced to grow up rather quickly.

I feel like Andre Hollins, with how smart he is too, will have no problem finding minutes as a freshman though.
 

scher215 said:
Very interesting points about the complicated system, I never actually thought of it that way.

While college football is not my speciality, how much of a learning curve difference is there between, for example, a pro style offense for a QB vs. Tubby's ball-line deffense?

However, my only point in response to what you said, at least here at MN Tubby is getting a lot of 4 year guys. That means they spend a year learning as freshman then have 3 years left to contribute and he has no need to play freshman (unless, you know, people transfer) unless they are really ready. The freshman this year have been forced to grow up rather quickly.

I feel like Andre Hollins, with how smart he is too, will have no problem finding minutes as a freshman though.
Click to expand...

Hollins will fall under "category B" - Tubby will have no choice but to play him- and that may work out quite well. This is the same situation as he faced when Nolen was handed the ball as a freshman- except Hollins will have a much better supporting cast.
 

"J.D. Barnett, who taught Smith about the ball-line defense when he played for Barnett at High Point (N.C.), can explain the philosophy in layman's terms."

Tubby graduated from High Point in 1973.

The NCAA adopted the 3 pt shot in 1986.

Has the advent of the 3pt shot made the ball-line defense 'outdated'?
 



OMG, I've heard it all. Ball line defense leads to disciplinary issues?? Ball line has nothing to do with players smoking weed or flunking classes. C'mon people.

Ball line is a defense that needs long, athletic players to be excecuted 100%. If it is, it's a thing of beauty. Just watch any of UK's games in 2003. Think about it...UK went UNDEFEATED the entire conference season...all the way to SEC Tournament. Do you know how hard that is? It's because they played suffocating defense. They would take their teams manhood away in the first 5 minutes of the game. It was that good. Tubby had the perfect players for it though.

Also, there have been plenty of freshmen that have excelled under Tubby, like Gerald Fitch for example. I think the players that LIKE to play defense will excel. Devoe Joseph was a lousy defender and he had no interest obviously in learning it and playing it. He was all about getting his shots, so that just wouldn't work under Tubby. It's as simple as that.
 

I thought it was interesting. But I do think that NC State fans think a little too highly of their job.

It is certainly not as good as Duke, Carolina or even Maryland. It is in the middle along with Georgia Tech, Virginia, BC and, maybe, Wake.

I also thought the description of Tubby as a "high-floor, low-ceiling" coach was interesting.
 

station19 said:
"J.D. Barnett, who taught Smith about the ball-line defense when he played for Barnett at High Point (N.C.), can explain the philosophy in layman's terms."

Tubby graduated from High Point in 1973.

The NCAA adopted the 3 pt shot in 1986.

Has the advent of the 3pt shot made the ball-line defense 'outdated'?
Click to expand...

From this fan's viewpoint-yes. To run this thing you better have a couple of mature Damian Johnsons on the court at all time- guys that understand it, have great quickness and agressiveness and long arms. This is why it looks so much worse this year- no DJ. Maybe Hollins will become DJ2.

What does a system do like this to the confidence of a young player and his ability to contribute?
Does it affect recruiting?
 



BleedGopher said:
http://www.backingthepack.com/2011/2/9/1981193/profile-of-a-possible-savior-tubby-smith

Go Gophers!!
Click to expand...

I also read the BS article from A Sea Of Blue on reasons for Tubby leaving UK.

Tubby was 132-43 his first 5 years at UK. He was 131-40 his last 5 years there. Not much difference.

He had #1 ranked team (1998) once his first 5 years and once (2003) his last 5 years there.

He won 3 SEC and 3 SECT championships his first 5 years and 2 of each his last 5 years.

He recruited 4 McDonalds A-A his first 5 years at UK and 3 McD A-A his last 5 years.

His 2003 team was the first SEC team since Alabama in 1956 to go undefeated against SEC opponents.

Tubby left UK because his closest friends finally convinced him he deserved more respect than he was getting from Mitch Barnhart, Lee Todd, and some UK "fans" who despised him in 1998.
 

anonymous said:
I thought it was interesting. But I do think that NC State fans think a little too highly of their job.

It is certainly not as good as Duke, Carolina or even Maryland. It is in the middle along with Georgia Tech, Virginia, BC and, maybe, Wake.

I also thought the description of Tubby as a "high-floor, low-ceiling" coach was interesting.
Click to expand...

Duke and Carolina are obviously in thier own class with Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA and Indiana. Maryland is the second tier with jobs like Syracuse, UConn and Michigan State. GT is in larger 3rd tier along with MN and many others. NC State due to being buried in 3rd or 4th place in its own state is simply not a great job. If Tubby wants to bolt for an ACC job this year, it will be GT.

Frankly, I'm past the point of caring too much. First, I don't think anyone's going to beat his door down at 59 years old with three straight one-and-done NCAA appearances (if that's what happens.) And those that do will likely be lateral moves at best. Does he really want that at this point? Finally if he does leave, oh well. While I appreciate what he's done, it hasn't been a complete success and I'm almost curious to see what Flip or a Tim Miles could do. However, I do NOT want Joel Maturi making said hire. Anyway, I hope Tubby sticks around to see this through. If he leaves it won't speak well for our AD. But it also won't be a tragedy.
 

howeda7 said:
Duke and Carolina are obviously in thier own class with Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA and Indiana. Maryland is the second tier with jobs like Syracuse, UConn and Michigan State. GT is in larger 3rd tier along with MN and many others. NC State due to being buried in 3rd or 4th place in its own state is simply not a great job. If Tubby wants to bolt for an ACC job this year, it will be GT.

Frankly, I'm past the point of caring too much. First, I don't think anyone's going to beat his door down at 59 years old with three straight one-and-done NCAA appearances (if that's what happens.) And those that do will likely be lateral moves at best. Does he really want that at this point? Finally if he does leave, oh well. While I appreciate what he's done, it hasn't been a complete success and I'm almost curious to see what Flip or a Tim Miles could do. However, I do NOT want Joel Maturi making said hire. Anyway, I hope Tubby sticks around to see this through. If he leaves it won't speak well for our AD. But it also won't be a tragedy.
Click to expand...

To me there is absolutely nothing interesting in the article with regards to losing Tubby. I can't believe he goes there- or anywhere else at this point. You are correct at 59 I think he's here to finish and that's good. The interesting part is the observations about his system.
 

station19 said:
"J.D. Barnett, who taught Smith about the ball-line defense when he played for Barnett at High Point (N.C.), can explain the philosophy in layman's terms."

Tubby graduated from High Point in 1973.

The NCAA adopted the 3 pt shot in 1986.

Has the advent of the 3pt shot made the ball-line defense 'outdated'?
Click to expand...

I don't think so. When it is run correctly the opposing team isn't getting many good looks. The problem now is without our strongest parameter defender we are giving up the paint too easily. As a result, either our front court has to help--leaving them out of rebounding position, or back court players have to leave the guards resulting in some open looks. The loss of Al has thrown the entire defense into disarray.
 



KyGopherfan said:
OMG, I've heard it all. Ball line defense leads to disciplinary issues?? Ball line has nothing to do with players smoking weed or flunking classes. C'mon people.

Ball line is a defense that needs long, athletic players to be excecuted 100%. If it is, it's a thing of beauty. Just watch any of UK's games in 2003. Think about it...UK went UNDEFEATED the entire conference season...all the way to SEC Tournament. Do you know how hard that is? It's because they played suffocating defense. They would take their teams manhood away in the first 5 minutes of the game. It was that good. Tubby had the perfect players for it though.

Also, there have been plenty of freshmen that have excelled under Tubby, like Gerald Fitch for example. I think the players that LIKE to play defense will excel. Devoe Joseph was a lousy defender and he had no interest obviously in learning it and playing it. He was all about getting his shots, so that just wouldn't work under Tubby. It's as simple as that.
Click to expand...

KyGoph- C'mon pal - that's not what I said and you know it (or should). The question is whether the inability of a player to be able to run the system and please the coach quickly (and kids today think in terms of instant gratification) can lead to a coach "losing the player" mentally such that the player just determines to go his own way. Is there direct causation? No.
 

bga1 said:
To me there is absolutely nothing interesting in the article with regards to losing Tubby. I can't believe he goes there- or anywhere else at this point. You are correct at 59 I think he's here to finish and that's good. The interesting part is the observations about his system.
Click to expand...

+1

It was a really interesting read regarding his system.
 

I don't know how reputable or accurate this blog is but I read it simply to hear what rumors are going on out there. They mentioned Tubby to NC State as well.

http://www.underthehoop.com/
 

mnboiler said:
I don't know how reputable or accurate this blog is but I read it simply to hear what rumors are going on out there. They mentioned Tubby to NC State as well.

http://www.underthehoop.com/
Click to expand...


On Feb. 7 they state this:

"Tubby Smith's name will be rumored to be the next coach at Georgia Tech, but we don't think he will leave Minnesota."

then on Feb. 8 they state this:

"We have been told to not sleep on Tubby Smith to NC State."

Go Gophers!!
 

Tim Miles

Nice call on Tim Miles, Howeda. If Tubby did decide to leave, Miles would be a good choice and one I could get behind. A young, up-and-coming coach who smoothly transitioned NDSU to Division I. He knows the Midwest. Now he's doing a nice rebuilding job at Colorado State and made them relevant again in the Mountain West in short order. There won't be a shortage of quality candidates if Tubby goes elsewhere. I hope Tubby stays, but just like when an injured player goes down, if he goes it's next man up. Deal with the hand you're dealt.
 

Howeda,

Agree that Maryland isn't as good of a job as Duke or Carolina. But I think with a still very new building on campus and access to players, it is the next best job in that league.

I would break it down nationally in this way:

The elite blue bloods -- a group that would include Duke, Kansas, Carolina, Kentucky and a couple of others.
The really, really good programs -- UConn, Syracuse, Michigan State, Arizona, etc.
The football schools with lots of money -- Ohio State, Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, Tennessee
Then the big fat group of schools that can be pretty good or pretty average -- This group probably has 30 major conference teams in it. The Gophers are in this group, so is NC State and the middle ACC schools.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Nice call on Tim Miles, Howeda. If Tubby did decide to leave, Miles would be a good choice and one I could get behind. A young, up-and-coming coach who smoothly transitioned NDSU to Division I. He knows the Midwest. Now he's doing a nice rebuilding job at Colorado State and made them relevant again in the Mountain West in short order. There won't be a shortage of quality candidates if Tubby goes elsewhere. I hope Tubby stays, but just like when an injured player goes down, if he goes it's next man up. Deal with the hand you're dealt.
Click to expand...

No doubt that if we lose Tubby at some point, this job will be very coveted. I'm sure Miles will go after it hard as will Ben Jacobson at Northern Iowa (beat KU in the tourney last year, rumored to have Minnesota as his "out school" on his contract, has former Gopher Ben Johnson on his staff, etc.)

http://www.unipanthers.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/jacobson_ben02.html

Go Gophers!!
 

anonymous said:
Howeda,

Agree that Maryland isn't as good of a job as Duke or Carolina. But I think with a still very new building on campus and access to players, it is the next best job in that league.

I would break it down nationally in this way:

The elite blue bloods -- a group that would include Duke, Kansas, Carolina, Kentucky and a couple of others.
The really, really good programs -- UConn, Syracuse, Michigan State, Arizona, etc.
The football schools with lots of money -- Ohio State, Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, Tennessee
Then the big fat group of schools that can be pretty good or pretty average -- This group probably has 30 major conference teams in it. The Gophers are in this group, so is NC State and the middle ACC schools.
Click to expand...

The difference between MN and NC State is that we don't play any of the "elite blue bloods", at NC State you play two.
 

anonymous said:
Howeda,

Agree that Maryland isn't as good of a job as Duke or Carolina. But I think with a still very new building on campus and access to players, it is the next best job in that league.

I would break it down nationally in this way:

The elite blue bloods -- a group that would include Duke, Kansas, Carolina, Kentucky and a couple of others.
The really, really good programs -- UConn, Syracuse, Michigan State, Arizona, etc.
The football schools with lots of money -- Ohio State, Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, Tennessee
Then the big fat group of schools that can be pretty good or pretty average -- This group probably has 30 major conference teams in it. The Gophers are in this group, so is NC State and the middle ACC schools.
Click to expand...

I basically agree.

-Group 1 is Duke, NC, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA and probably still Indiana, though they're hanging by a thread

-Group 2 is Arizona, Louisville, UConn, Syracuse, Michigan State, Maryland.

-Group 3 is larger, the footbal schools with money, but also good basketball schools that have a flaw or 2. I think the Gophers are in this group despite the relative lack of success due to being the only team in the state, playing in a large metro area, and packing a building that gives a significant home court advantage. Also, asterisks or not, we have shown we can reach the highest level.

So OSU, Florida, Texas, Wisconsin, Pitt and even ND yes. But also MN, Illinois, Purdue, Oklahoma State, Mizzou, GT, Stanford, Villanova, Georgetown, Marquette, Cincy, and Arkansas.

Obviously, this is a somewhat debatable group, but I think MN is a top 30 job, and NC State, Virginia, Oregon and some of the other jobs Tubby has been rumored for fall short of that and are in the next even larger group of average BCS schools.
 

KyGopherfan said:
OMG, I've heard it all. Ball line defense leads to disciplinary issues?? Ball line has nothing to do with players smoking weed or flunking classes. C'mon people.

Ball line is a defense that needs long, athletic players to be excecuted 100%. If it is, it's a thing of beauty. Just watch any of UK's games in 2003. Think about it...UK went UNDEFEATED the entire conference season...all the way to SEC Tournament. Do you know how hard that is? It's because they played suffocating defense. They would take their teams manhood away in the first 5 minutes of the game. It was that good. Tubby had the perfect players for it though.

Also, there have been plenty of freshmen that have excelled under Tubby, like Gerald Fitch for example. I think the players that LIKE to play defense will excel. Devoe Joseph was a lousy defender and he had no interest obviously in learning it and playing it. He was all about getting his shots, so that just wouldn't work under Tubby. It's as simple as that.
Click to expand...

Tayshaun Prince, Desmond Allison, Keith Bogans, Jason Parker, Chuck Hayes, Rajon Rondo, Randolph Morris, Derrick Jasper all started for UK as freshmen under Tubby, along with Fitch.

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/AllSECFreshmanTeam.html And 5 UK frosh made All-SEC Frosh team under Tubby.
 

bga1 said:
Thanks Bleed - that's an extremely interesting article- especially regarding the ball line defense.

The problem from an amateur fan's point of view is that this defense routinely gives up the shot that has become a staple of modern college basketball- the 3 point shot. When you are giving up the 3's the opponent appears to be never out of reach of getting back into the game. As the article states, the defense can be suffocating if run to perfection. However- it also states that the very best kids - like a Chucky Hayes- take a full year to learn it and work it properly.

This is huge. That means that it is difficult if not impossible to have an impact freshman in our program. We know that Tubby does not play you unless A) you play his defense well or B) he has no choice what so ever. According to this article, it's nearly impossible to be proficient at it in your first year. It's not instinctive like regular man to man defense.

Could this be where Tubby has lost players like Bostick and Joseph? I understand that Joseph probably had other issues and love that Tubby doesn't take that garbage, but it does make you wonder if the frustration with the system leads to discipline issues. In this day where your better players are going to have shorter college careers is it wise ot run a system that has such a long learning curve? It's tought to argue with all those 20 win seasons, Tubby is obviously a good coach. The article makes an interesting assessment saying that Tubby has a "high floor and a low ceiling".
Click to expand...

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/AllSECFreshmanTeam.html Somebody should have told Bogans, Hayes, Fitch, Parker, and Rondo they couldn't excel as UK freshmen under Tubby.
 

Tubby isn't going anywhere. Zero pressure to win here. He's got a great gig.

31-34 in the B10 and he's a God around here. He's not going ot get that anywhere else except maybe Northwestern or Penn State.
 

Interesting that we're 4th in the conference against three. I think defending the three point line is about staying alert on defense, not the ball line defense itself. Does it make you vulnerable to the deep ball? Yes, but that's like saying man to man makes you vulnerable to a guy beating someone off the dribble or zone makes you vulnerable to give up offensive rebounds. There is no such thing as a perfect defense. Usually when we're giving up a lot of threes, it's because someone fell asleep, which is the same thing that can happen with any defensive philosophy. I do think we play the post a little too hard sometimes against marginal post players, but not getting out to shooters is mainly on the players, not the defense IMO.
 

Monty519 said:
Interesting that we're 4th in the conference against three. I think defending the three point line is about staying alert on defense, not the ball line defense itself. Does it make you vulnerable to the deep ball? Yes, but that's like saying man to man makes you vulnerable to a guy beating someone off the dribble or zone makes you vulnerable to give up offensive rebounds. There is no such thing as a perfect defense. Usually when we're giving up a lot of threes, it's because someone fell asleep, which is the same thing that can happen with any defensive philosophy. I do think we play the post a little too hard sometimes against marginal post players, but not getting out to shooters is mainly on the players, not the defense IMO.
Click to expand...

Monty- not sure where you got that. Here is the info from the Big Ten site currently:

3 point defense - we are 8th in percentage made against us at .354- that is the equivalent of shooting 53% on two point shots- fairly devastating.
We have allowed 594 points on threes- that's worst by a country mile.
The closest to us is 492 points allowed by Penn State.
Teams have attempted 79 more threes against us than the nearest competitor.
 

Why in the world would Tubby leave Minnesota for NC State? People need to realize this isn't football. The Gophers are a borderline top 25 (certainly top 35-40) job. It's pretty easy to have success here. Lock down the instate talent, sprinkle in a couple solid out of state recruits every couple of years and you will make the tourney regulary (as Tubby has done and will continue to do).

I think the only way Tubby leaves Minnesota is if a much better job comes around. I'm talking jobs like Villanova, Cuse, UConn, Georgetown ect. The odds of that happening and those programs being interested in Tubby are slim to none. Tubby will be here untill he retires. This is his last job.
 


reasons why Tubby tries to recruit 'intelligent' players, they learn and comprehend faster, afterall, this is a University, not an NBA D league.

Devoe was flunking out and failing drug tests and can blame the toughness of Tubby's defensive requirements? Really? Tubby doesn't massage egos, he tries to nuture young men to be adults who produce.
 

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