Authority of Coaches Is Absolute No Longer

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24, do not let the pups get your dander up.

They know nothing of what they speak. I've been saying that for years on GH, and all one gets is flippancy.
 

Sportsfan24 said:
Again speaking in general terms.

How does belittling, bullying and demeaning provide guidance? Answer, it doesn't. It's just the lazy way of leading.
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It doesn't, however everyone has different definitions of what is bullying and demeaning. AJ Barker took offense to being yelled at about not icing his ankle. The guy seems like the kind of person who would feel demeaned for just about anything.

The fact is that expecting and demanding excellence from your players will bother some immature kids who can't handle the demand of high expectations, those players are not the litmus test on what is "bullying".

Barker lost all credibility (for me) with the style, timing, and partially the substance of his letter. If someone came out and made a complaint a better way, it would be met with some more open ears. The style of Barker's letter was either laughably immature or bordering on psychotic. No one should give it much credence.
 

By the way, the article says nothing of substance, again. It's my biggest problem with the Times and it's why I have a hard time reading that rag anymore.

The entire write up seems to imply something that they know to be false (since the author read the letter). The article seems to imply that Kill was mad at Barker for not playing through pain. That's not the case at all, even Barker's letter spills that out. Kill was mad at Barker for not going through the proper rehab of his ankle. Barker seemed to think he knew better on how to deal with his ankle (which included NOT icing it at times) and Kill was upset at Barker for not listening to the trainer and doing what he is told. Kill didn't want him to play on a bum ankle, he was upset with him for not rehabbing correctly and making his ankle healthier.

Barker admits that he didn't follow the protocol of the trainer, he admits he didn't always ice his ankle when he was told to and he admits to missing rehabs to meet with his acupuncturist. I can't fathom how anyone, even this author (I refuse to call him/her a journalist) could imply that it was simply Kill pulling Bud Kilmer.
 

Coach Kill: "I've never had anybody say anything to me about the way I coached. And I don't consider myself old school at all. Old school is when they take the yardstick and hit you."

Then came Barker!
 



Dr.Don said:
24, do not let the pups get your dander up.

They know nothing of what they speak. I've been saying that for years on GH, and all one gets is flippancy.
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He didn't.

Randy Moss said the TRUTH hurts homie; he didn't say baseless comments hurt;)

Now if he would have called me a know it all, big mouth or don't know when to shut up.....then that may have stung a little.:cry:
 

Go4Broke said:
There are far too many extremely successful coaches who have NEVER verbally abused their players to buy what you are saying. You are advocating just one of many ways to coach a sports team. How many times do you think John Gagliardi yelled at and embarrassed one of his players in front of his teammates in the 60 plus years he coached? How about John Wooden? How many times do you think Bud Grant yelled at a player in all of the time he coached football? Do you thing he ever raised his voice to any of his children when they were growing up? I don't. Coaches verbally abuse players because that is their natural personality and it is too hard for them to figure out another way to do it. They just don't want to put out the effort.
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Coaches have the narrowest of narrow lines to walk.
They can't let selfish egos, entitlement, and immaturities thrive. And there is an abundance of that in today's college athletes.
But, I think everyone would agree that verbal abuse is not the answer.

I guess what I want to say is, we need to figure out what constitutes "verbal abuse".

For me, I personally don't mind if a coach speak in a loud voice and using foul language as long as it's not in the name-calling sense ex: you are a @$!%ing *!&@#. Foul language used to enhance a point the coach is trying to make to a prima donna talking back to his coach, is fine by me ex: I don't give a *#!@ if you are our top player, if you don't *$%#ing ____ I will bench your @ss!! If this engagement just so happened to occur in front of the team and the player felt embarrassed, that's also fine by me.

We can get into more details, but I think that sets the groundwork fairly well

:)
 

Discussion is good, but if I have to hear one more time about how Gagliardi ran his practices without hitting, tackling, the team taking breaks by laying down & staring up at the sky, and never felt the need to yell at one of his players & then that is used to compare to a Big Ten program and football coach, I'll probably jam a fork into the side of my head....
 

short ornery norwegian said:
It's all a matter of perspective. Yes, there are different methods of coaching. There have been very successful coaches who were "tough" coaches. (bringing to mind the famous quote about Vince Lombardi from a former player - "He treats us all the same - like dogs!") A lot of people have criticized Bobby Knight, but the vast majority of his former players support him.

Can coaches cross the line? - of course they can. Are some players (and parents) looking for excuses after they didn't have the success they were anticipating? you bet they are.

It's hard to render a verdict unless you know ALL the facts - who said what to whom, and under what circumstances.

But, I will say this - if you are going to play team sports, you need to buy into the team concept. If you are unable or unwilling to buy into the team concept, then maybe you should consider trying an individual sport.
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I don’t pretend to know the answer? It seems to be a subjective thing about when the line is crossed. However, I’m curious just how far this will go and what changes, if any, will result in the game? For example, I recall Glen Mason discussing with someone what at the time was a new officiating policy where referees began identifying players (by uniform number) that committed penalties. I don’t recall who it was but this other person questioned the new policy and seemed to imply that it was embarrassing for the player to be called out publically when they made a mistake. I recall Mason’s response being something like so what, he did something wrong and maybe he won’t do it again if he gets humiliated in front of everyone. Is this abuse? If so and before you know it, they’ll be playing 2-hand touch (of course above the waist only), no score will be kept, and everyone will get a bowl invitation along with being told repeatedly by their parents and mom’s bff that they’re the best, extra special and a winner.
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
By the way, the article says nothing of substance, again. It's my biggest problem with the Times and it's why I have a hard time reading that rag anymore.

The entire write up seems to imply something that they know to be false (since the author read the letter). The article seems to imply that Kill was mad at Barker for not playing through pain. That's not the case at all, even Barker's letter spills that out. Kill was mad at Barker for not going through the proper rehab of his ankle. Barker seemed to think he knew better on how to deal with his ankle (which included NOT icing it at times) and Kill was upset at Barker for not listening to the trainer and doing what he is told. Kill didn't want him to play on a bum ankle, he was upset with him for not rehabbing correctly and making his ankle healthier.

Barker admits that he didn't follow the protocol of the trainer, he admits he didn't always ice his ankle when he was told to and he admits to missing rehabs to meet with his acupuncturist. I can't fathom how anyone, even this author (I refuse to call him/her a journalist) could imply that it was simply Kill pulling Bud Kilmer.
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Agree with this, and it often gets overlooked. It's more fun to talk about bully coaches. AJ was disrespecting a trainer, a member of Kill's staff. That's why Kill yelled at Barker, and rightly so. Many have said if a teacher or a boss did that, they would be gone. Well, if an employee disrespected a boss like AJ disrespected the trainer, they'd be gone too.
 

Sportsfan24 said:
Kill? I couldn't have been any clearer.

My comments were not directed toward Kill. I was speaking in general terms. I figured someone would assume I was talking about Kill so I thought by making a disclaimer I could prevent that assumption...I guess not.

My man if you hadn't noticed, I'm a direct kind a guy. You may not like what I say or do but you will always know where I'm coming from.

If your gonna dis me, please do it for something I actually did.....it won't take long (smile).
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My mann, you sure are a funny dude:D

You weren't talking about Kill? Wow, you must really think we are stupid. Everytime there is any thead that has a negative angle towards Kill you are front and present (maybe beacause of your military family backround) pushing your agenda, and whenever there is a positive article of Kill, you are no where to be found. You were talking about Kill.

Diss you? I simply restated the many things you have posted on this site. Which is related to the numerous posts where you hint at the dirtly laundry you have of Kill. The same things that should be kept to those involved, and not aired for everybody on a public forum, like the girls in school who just loved drama. Really I just think your distain lies in the fact that Brew stroked your ego, told you how great you and your son is, and Kill focused on what was at hand and did not provide you with ego boosting car salesman talk.

Keep up your slanted angles though based on "facts", its fun to see how many ways you can try to take shots at Kill.
 

victor04 said:
My mann, you sure are a funny dude:D

You weren't talking about Kill? Wow, you must really think we are stupid. Everytime there is any thead that has a negative angle towards Kill you are front and present (maybe beacause of your military family backround) pushing your agenda, and whenever there is a positive article of Kill, you are no where to be found. You were talking about Kill.

Diss you? I simply restated the many things you have posted on this site. Which is related to the numerous posts where you hint at the dirtly laundry you have of Kill. The same things that should be kept to those involved, and not aired for everybody on a public forum, like the girls in school who just loved drama. Really I just think your distain lies in the fact that Brew stroked your ego, told you how great you and your son is, and Kill focused on what was at hand and did not provide you with ego boosting car salesman talk.Keep up your slanted angles though based on "facts", its fun to see how many ways you can try to take shots at Kill.
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Finally something we can agree on. Yes I do in fact believe you to be stupid (not really, just being a jerk).

I could not have been any clearer before I made my comments and after when I responded to yours, that I was speaking in general and not about Kill.

Unlike you (yes I know you are gopher team affiliated) I have never had an issue with stating who I am and what my thoughts are. So why would I then play games by having an agenda? Wouldn't it be more likely that someone like yourself who won't disclose their gopher relationship be the one to have an agenda by discrediting anyone who said anything negative about Kill?

Brew stroked my ego? Wow, that is actually high school like. And just how did Brew stroke my ego? I'm suppose to pretend like I don't like the man because he got fired and is unpopular? I like Brew because he is a friend> I never said that he should not have been fired. I never said that he was a better coach than Kill. I just said I liked him because he was for real. Think about it. Brew and I are a lot alike, that's why I like him....we both have the unfortunate need to speak what's on our mind versus telling people what we think they want to hear. An agenda my man would be not to disclose that sort of information.....kind of like what you are doing here.

Respond to positive articles about Kill? I don't have to wait for those. I have said on more than one occasion that we have the right man for the job and illness aside I believe he will be successful here. I have said that I love his recruiting efforts and that he values the talent of the local area football players. I have said that he was more experienced than Brewster was and has a plan in place. I have said that part of building a program requires the breaking of a few eggs. I have said that my dislike for Kill doesn't mean he is a bad person or that I'm right (I am). I have also public criticized myself and acknowledged my mistakes. I'm treating Kill no different that I treat myself.

I'm a lot of things but games and agenda's are not part of them.....can you say the same?

For the last damn time, I was speaking in general terms of coaches (whoever they may be) who bully players. I was not even thinking of Kill (or AJ). For the record I believe the coach Kill/AJ issue could actually be an AJ/medical staff issue. From what I read it sounded like coach Kill overhead an argument that resulted from medical treatment or lack there of.

For the sake of an argument let's make two assumptions:

The first one; AJ is in the wrong has been covered to ad nauseum.

The 2nd one:
The same medical opinion that AJ was told (his injury was not that bad and he should be playing) was also told to coach Kill. In that assumption I could understand why Kill would take the stance that AJ should be playing and how could he trust him and reward him with a scholarship if he was being soft.

But what if the medical assessment was wrong?
What is being missed is according to the article, AJ was not correctly diagnosed. His injury was more severe than what he and I assume Kill was told. If that's the case, Kill was operating on some bad information and AJ was entitled to be pissed off at the medical staff and later coach Kill (who had based previous comments to AJ on the assumption AJ should be playing). Both AJ and Kill could be the victim of bad information/diagnoses....assuming what was stated in the article is correct. This is the reason why coach Kill being a bully NEVER crossed my mind...I'm thinking this about something else.
 

Dr.Don said:
I agree...the chickener one is, the bullier he is. The wronger one is, the arguer he is. It goes without saying that it is always the little weenie guy who starts the fights between the big boys. In fact, I like to brag that I was the best fighter in town. I won my last fight by 14 blocks.
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:clap:

HA! Yes it's true. A good run beats a bad stand any day.
 




That reminds me of my favorite jokes. It is a...

Sportsfan24 said:
He who runs today, lives to run another day. I operate under the belief that you first run and fight only if they catch you!
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...story about two guys hiking in the mountains. As they make a turn on the path they notice a grizzle bear coming down the path ahead of them. One of the guys immediately takes out a pair running shoes out of his pack and then starts to put them on. The other guy says "What are you doing? You can't outrun that bear!" As the guy is finishing putting on the shoes, he turns to the other guy and says "I don't need to out run the bear. I just need to outrun you."

P.S. How do you edit the title? That was bad.
 

Killjoy said:
...story about two guys hiking in the mountains. As they make a turn on the path they notice a grizzle bear coming down the path ahead of them. One of the guys immediately takes out a pair running shoes out of his pack and then starts to put them on. The other guy says "What are you doing? You can't outrun that bear!" As the guy is finishing putting on the shoes, he turns to the other guy and says "I don't need to out run the bear. I just need to outrun you."

P.S. How do you edit the title? That was bad.
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Select edit post, then select go advanced. The title will appear and you can edit that.
 



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