Artificial Turf

[Gophers_4life]

After OBJ's injury last night, there is an "outburst" of NFL players calling for a ban on artificial turf.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...-advocate-for-banning-turf-field-in-stadiums/

Super Bowl 2022: Odell Beckham Jr.'s injury causes NFL stars to advocate for banning turf field in stadiums ​

Beckham's injury sparked a social media outburst amongst NFL players​

Think there is any chance that we'd switch to real grass? Would need heating Coyles for sure, bare minimum. But how do you keep it alive through the end of November here??

Green Bay does something, but obviously have unlimited money compared to the Gophers.


Probably the more relevant question is: how could they do it at US Bank Stadium???

 

[Xerxes_]

After OBJ's injury last night, there is an "outburst" of NFL players calling for a ban on artificial turf.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...-advocate-for-banning-turf-field-in-stadiums/

Super Bowl 2022: Odell Beckham Jr.'s injury causes NFL stars to advocate for banning turf field in stadiums ​

Beckham's injury sparked a social media outburst amongst NFL players​

Think there is any chance that we'd switch to real grass? Would need heating Coyles for sure, bare minimum. But how do you keep it alive through the end of November here??

Green Bay does something, but obviously have unlimited money compared to the Gophers.


Probably the more relevant question is: how could they do it at US Bank Stadium???

I believe Green Bay has that SIS grass system that most European soccer teams use. Basically they stitch synthetic grass/fibers into real grass and it makes for a very durable and nice looking field.

I would love to see the NFL and the NCAA outlaw artificial turf.

 

[disco]

After OBJ's injury last night, there is an "outburst" of NFL players calling for a ban on artificial turf.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...-advocate-for-banning-turf-field-in-stadiums/

Super Bowl 2022: Odell Beckham Jr.'s injury causes NFL stars to advocate for banning turf field in stadiums ​

Beckham's injury sparked a social media outburst amongst NFL players​

Think there is any chance that we'd switch to real grass? Would need heating Coyles for sure, bare minimum. But how do you keep it alive through the end of November here??

Green Bay does something, but obviously have unlimited money compared to the Gophers.


Probably the more relevant question is: how could they do it at US Bank Stadium???

Or the Superdome, or Ford Field or any domed stadium with a solid color roof and no room to roll a field in and out like in Arizona or Vegas does.

This isn't going to happen anyway. Artificial turf is finding its way down to the lowest levels of the game. This is what kids are growing up playing on. Pretty much every large and many smaller high schools have turf fields now. I coached fourth grade tackle football this year. Not one of our games was played on natural grass. Not. One.

And it's not like today's turf fields are like the old Superturf at the Metrodome, which was basically like boat carpeting on a concrete floor. I'm really surprised the players dislike it so much.

Personally, I think the NFL should mandate the same artificial surface for every stadium, so that field conditions (other than weather) have no bearing on the game.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Don't think you will find many that prefer turf fields to grass. Unfortunately grass fields require a lot more work and upkeep to keep them looking good.

Turf field technology keeps getting more and more grass like. Hopefully they can get to a point where the two surfaces are nearly identical but we aren't there yet.

 

[forever a gopher]

So exactly what is their proposal for keeping grass alive in indoor stadiums? Not to mention the vast majority of stadiums are multi-purpose, which considering their price tags, they need to be. How are you protecting the grass when being used by other tenets? Can grass fields be compartmentalized and temporarily removed when Monster Jam or the Foo Fighters come to town? There are awesome setups like the Arizona Cardinals where the grass is slid outdoors to keep it alive. But there is no space for something like that at US Bank Stadium, even if they wanted to pay for it when the stadium was being designed and constructed.

Reading through the tweets in the link above, many are calling real grass better for the environment. Not sure dumping the amount of chemicals they do on the grass to keep it pretty and free of weeds is better than artificial. The artificial turf has a life of what, 10 years? I get that it's a petroleum product, but would say the environmental benefits of real turf in this instance is sketchy, at best.

As a fan, I prefer real grass. I would love it if the Gophers were able to keep real grass alive and maintained at the Bank. But I get why they have artificial. Without solutions to the problems listed above, this is just a bunch of people pissing in the wind.

Not being a football player, I don't know if this is the case or not. But can't you just use shorter spikes on your cleats? Maybe they need to use those short nubby spikes like lineman wear to prevent your cleats from getting caught? I get that your ability to cut and juke would be diminished, but maybe that's better than losing a bunch players to knee injuries?

 

[MNVCGUY]

So exactly what is their proposal for keeping grass alive in indoor stadiums? Not to mention the vast majority of stadiums are multi-purpose, which considering their price tags, they need to be. How are you protecting the grass when being used by other tenets? Can grass fields be compartmentalized and temporarily removed when Monster Jam or the Foo Fighters come to town? There are awesome setups like the Arizona Cardinals where the grass is slid outdoors to keep it alive. But there is no space for something like that at US Bank Stadium, even if they wanted to pay for it when the stadium was being designed and constructed.

Reading through the tweets in the link above, many are calling real grass better for the environment. Not sure dumping the amount of chemicals they do on the grass to keep it pretty and free of weeds is better than artificial. The artificial turf has a life of what, 10 years? I get that it's a petroleum product, but would say the environmental benefits of real turf in this instance is sketchy, at best.

As a fan, I prefer real grass. I would love it if the Gophers were able to keep real grass alive and maintained at the Bank. But I get why they have artificial. Without solutions to the problems listed above, this is just a bunch of people pissing in the wind.

Not being a football player, I don't know if this is the case or not. But can't you just use shorter spikes on your cleats? Maybe they need to use those short nubby spikes like lineman wear to prevent your cleats from getting caught? I get that your ability to cut and juke would be diminished, but maybe that's better than losing a bunch players to knee injuries?

Yep, easy to say they should ban turf fields. But not nearly that simple for a lot of venues especially in the large multi-purpose ones like you mention.

And even for a place like the U, the logistics of maintaining a grass field at Huntington Bank Stadium would pose a lot of difficulties.

 

[Gophers_4life]

So exactly what is their proposal for keeping grass alive in indoor stadiums? Not to mention the vast majority of stadiums are multi-purpose, which considering their price tags, they need to be. How are you protecting the grass when being used by other tenets? Can grass fields be compartmentalized and temporarily removed when Monster Jam or the Foo Fighters come to town? There are awesome setups like the Arizona Cardinals where the grass is slid outdoors to keep it alive. But there is no space for something like that at US Bank Stadium, even if they wanted to pay for it when the stadium was being designed and constructed.

Reading through the tweets in the link above, many are calling real grass better for the environment. Not sure dumping the amount of chemicals they do on the grass to keep it pretty and free of weeds is better than artificial. The artificial turf has a life of what, 10 years? I get that it's a petroleum product, but would say the environmental benefits of real turf in this instance is sketchy, at best.

As a fan, I prefer real grass. I would love it if the Gophers were able to keep real grass alive and maintained at the Bank. But I get why they have artificial. Without solutions to the problems listed above, this is just a bunch of people pissing in the wind.

Not being a football player, I don't know if this is the case or not. But can't you just use shorter spikes on your cleats? Maybe they need to use those short nubby spikes like lineman wear to prevent your cleats from getting caught? I get that your ability to cut and juke would be diminished, but maybe that's better than losing a bunch players to knee injuries?

The "pretend money isn't a thing" "solution" is like this:

every stadium has the grass field into a rolling tray, like Arizona and Vegas, but instead of rolling outside, it rolls into a huge "compartment" where there are UV grow lights and spray nozzles everywhere that can spray water and nutrients on it. Large enough for people to walk around and examine it.

Can't even imagine what that would cost, assuming it had been designed into the original plans. $100M extra? No idea

To "retrofit" that into current designs?? Probably not possible in some places. Unless that compartment could be underneath the current field space and it could "sink down"??

 

[GopherPoke]

I think maintaining natural grass at Huntington would be pretty easy. Assuming, of course, the heating coils can double as a warm water sprinkling system. This would allow for year round warmth and water keeping its deep green for all to see. Might look odd from the sky but what a scene for the recruits flying in all winter. It would make me want to play there for sure. Feasible?

 

[short ornery norwegian]

What about the basketball players who have ACL injuries?

should we play basketball on grass?

and while we're at it, let's take those foam impact barriers from race tracks and put them up on outfield fences so Buxton won't get hurt running into the fence again.

you cannot prevent injuries.

every player in the Super Bowl played on the same field. one player sustained a non-contact injury. all the other players got through the game game OK.

 

[PMWinSTP]

The "pretend money isn't a thing" "solution" is like this:

every stadium has the grass field into a rolling tray, like Arizona and Vegas, but instead of rolling outside, it rolls into a huge "compartment" where there are UV grow lights and spray nozzles everywhere that can spray water and nutrients on it. Large enough for people to walk around and examine it.

Can't even imagine what that would cost, assuming it had been designed into the original plans. $100M extra? No idea

To "retrofit" that into current designs?? Probably not possible in some places. Unless that compartment could be underneath the current field space and it could "sink down"??

Yes, very, very expensive.

 

[I'm A Maroon 2!]

Allianz Arena first to use LED lights to grow turf | Stadia Magazine

Allianz Arena first to use LED lights to grow turf

www.stadia-magazine.com

 

[UpAndUnder43]

Soccer doesn’t allow turf at its highest levels (for men at least) Just a point of reference.

 

[disco]

The "pretend money isn't a thing" "solution" is like this:

every stadium has the grass field into a rolling tray, like Arizona and Vegas, but instead of rolling outside, it rolls into a huge "compartment" where there are UV grow lights and spray nozzles everywhere that can spray water and nutrients on it. Large enough for people to walk around and examine it.

What's interesting about Vegas, is that UNLV plays on turf. Only the Raiders play on the grass field. When they host the Super Bowl, I wonder which surface they'll use.

 

[disco]

Soccer doesn’t allow turf at its highest levels (for men at least) Just a point of reference.

Correct. Turf is not allowed for the Men's World Cup. It is allowed for the women, as I know they played a few games up in Winnipeg.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Allianz Arena first to use LED lights to grow turf | Stadia Magazine

Allianz Arena first to use LED lights to grow turf

www.stadia-magazine.com

Now we're talking!

But definitely would still want heating Coyles in order to keep the field a reasonable temperature and softness during frigid cold.

Or maybe that would never happen during late November. We're never going to host a bowl game. Could be first round of playoff, one day, if they go that route though.

Was an issue for Vikings.

 

[Some guy]

Correct. Turf is not allowed for the Men's World Cup. It is allowed for the women, as I know they played a few games up in Winnipeg.

It also takes a much lower level of beating from one game being played on it.

 

[alchemy2u]

We had real grass at the Met when they used flame throwers to clear the snow off the yard lines. Do not think the grass prevented any injuries in those games.

So how was his injury caused by the turf, or is it just speculation?

 

[theTurning]

Surprised at the support for turf here as it is clearly inferior to grass, causes significantly more injuries and has been linked to cancer as well. Turf simply does not give in the way grass does and will continue to destroy knees at random.
The NFL is the biggest sports league in the world by a good margin; they can afford to figure out a solution. As others have said, soccer doesn’t allow it. Colleges and high schools, fine it’s a cost thing whatever, but the top athletes on the planet should be playing on grass.

 

[fmlizard]

We had real grass at the Met when they used flame throwers to clear the snow off the yard lines. Do not think the grass prevented any injuries in those games.

So how was his injury caused by the turf, or is it just speculation?

Speculation about a famous player, and a sample size of one. Many players have torn their knee ligaments on natural grass.

Remember when Iowa used to lose every RB on the team to ACLs for much of the '00s? That mostly happened when they had grass at Kinnick, and around the time (2009) they went to turf the whole thing eased.

 

[Gophers_4life]

We had real grass at the Met when they used flame throwers to clear the snow off the yard lines. Do not think the grass prevented any injuries in those games.

So how was his injury caused by the turf, or is it just speculation?

There does seem to be statistically significant data showing more injuries, including knee.

I would guess the mechanism is something like: if you put enough force/torque into regular soil/grass, it will "break away" or "tear out". But of course the artificial stuff will not tear out like that, at least it would take far more force I imagine.

Maybe @theTurning has more info, seemed pretty certain.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Speculation about a famous player, and a sample size of one. Many players have torn their knee ligaments on natural grass.

Remember when Iowa used to lose every RB on the team to ACLs for much of the '00s? That mostly happened when they had grass at Kinnick, and around the time (2009) they went to turf the whole thing eased.

I don't think anyone is saying you'll never tear your knee on real grass or that you will for sure tear on artificial turf.

I think it's more like saying "you have a 20% higher chance of tearing your knee on artificial".

 

[fmlizard]

Barry Sanders
Randy Moss
Emmitt Smith
Marvin Harrison
Torry Holt
Calvin Johnson
Drew Brees
Peyton Manning

Just a few recent NFL stars who played most of their home careers on artificial turf and never suffered a major leg injury I'm aware of.

Others like Edgerrin James, Marshall Faulk, Saquon Barkley, and Adrian Peterson played home games on turf most of their careers, but tore their knees up during road games on grass.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Barry Sanders
Randy Moss
Emmitt Smith
Marvin Harrison
Torry Holt
Calvin Johnson
Drew Brees
Peyton Manning

Just a few recent NFL stars who played most of their home careers on artificial turf and never suffered a major leg injury I'm aware of.

Others like Edgerrin James, Marshall Faulk, and Adrian Peterson played home games on turf most of their careers, but tore their knees up during road games on grass.

AP and Cook both tore their knees in US Bank Stadium. They replaced the turf after only three years.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/12/28/three-years-in-new-turf-sought-for-vikings-stadium

Three years in, new turf sought for Vikings stadium​

At the time it was installed, Vikings management described the field turf manufactured by a Canadian company as more advanced and durable than the team played on while in the Metrodome.

But two of the Vikings star players, running back Dalvin Cook and former running back Adrian Peterson, both suffered severe knee injuries during home games in the stadium's short life. Some fans blamed the turf.

Bagley dismissed that.

"There's nothing out of the ordinary with the turf and with any injuries," he said. "We play a very aggressive and rough sport and injuries happen whether they are on turf or on grass."

Under the terms of the bid request, the new turf would have to come with a five-year repair and replacement warranty. Independent testing would be done to comply with player safety standards.

"Player/athlete safety is paramount," the bid requirements stress.

The authority specified that the roughly 100,000-square-foot NFL field must come with removable panels for possible baseball alignment. There also must be ability for a 4,000-square foot expansion for soccer use and a shock pad durable enough for heavy-duty stadium events.

The cost of the new turf won't be known until bids are submitted and a contract is awarded. The current turf came at a price of $1.5 million, according to reports at the time.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Surprised at the support for turf here as it is clearly inferior to grass, causes significantly more injuries and has been linked to cancer as well. Turf simply does not give in the way grass does and will continue to destroy knees at random.
The NFL is the biggest sports league in the world by a good margin; they can afford to figure out a solution. As others have said, soccer doesn’t allow it. Colleges and high schools, fine it’s a cost thing whatever, but the top athletes on the planet should be playing on grass.

Not sure you are seeing a lot of support for turf but rather the acknowledgement that it is the best option in a lot of situations where having a well maintained grass field just isn't realistic.

District 196 finally replaced all their high school football fields with turf in large part because a few years ago Rosemount played a game in which massive sections of the grass field were coming up and causing serious issues.

Grass fields are a lot more work to maintain and football specifically is super tough on them because so much of the action takes place in a somewhat confined area. So the center of the field gets worn down while the edges don't take nearly the same beating.

The NFL probably can't mandate grass fields due to places like US Bank Stadium where it probably isn't really an option.

 

[fmlizard]

AP and Cook both tore their knees in US Bank Stadium. They replaced the turf after only three years.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/12/28/three-years-in-new-turf-sought-for-vikings-stadium

Three years in, new turf sought for Vikings stadium​

At the time it was installed, Vikings management described the field turf manufactured by a Canadian company as more advanced and durable than the team played on while in the Metrodome.

But two of the Vikings star players, running back Dalvin Cook and former running back Adrian Peterson, both suffered severe knee injuries during home games in the stadium's short life. Some fans blamed the turf.

Bagley dismissed that.

"There's nothing out of the ordinary with the turf and with any injuries," he said. "We play a very aggressive and rough sport and injuries happen whether they are on turf or on grass."

Under the terms of the bid request, the new turf would have to come with a five-year repair and replacement warranty. Independent testing would be done to comply with player safety standards.

"Player/athlete safety is paramount," the bid requirements stress.

The authority specified that the roughly 100,000-square-foot NFL field must come with removable panels for possible baseball alignment. There also must be ability for a 4,000-square foot expansion for soccer use and a shock pad durable enough for heavy-duty stadium events.

The cost of the new turf won't be known until bids are submitted and a contract is awarded. The current turf came at a price of $1.5 million, according to reports at the time.

I didn't recall that AP had two ACL tears in his career (Viking luck!)

His first was on grass in Washington.

 

[GopherRock]

The entire 2015 Women's World Cup in Canada was played on FieldTurf.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

All of the retrospective studies I’ve seen show a small but probably significant greater chance of lower body injuries on fake grass.

Fake grass has much higher surface temperature in sunny conditions.

Fake fields can also have underlying ground freeze, form ice glazes. It seems like hearing coils are still necessary?

Fake grass does not naturally “clean“ itself, require biocides. Maintenance of filler required.

The biggest argument in favor of artificial grass is for indoor facilities (of course) and for durability and alleged maintenance cost although hybrid natural grass fields are used by some NFL teams and many soccer stadiums to help with longer durability. Hybrid supposedly keeps characteristics of natural grass. The longevity of fake grass IIRC has been exaggerated in the past, particularly in sunny climates. Industry generally never overstates their products performance, as we know. Warranties exist but can be challenged if upkeep, maintenance not performed to spec. I also believe there is an element of keeping up with the joneses that has propelled municipalities to switch to fake grass.

 

[goldengophers]

The "pretend money isn't a thing" "solution" is like this:

every stadium has the grass field into a rolling tray, like Arizona and Vegas, but instead of rolling outside, it rolls into a huge "compartment" where there are UV grow lights and spray nozzles everywhere that can spray water and nutrients on it. Large enough for people to walk around and examine it.

Can't even imagine what that would cost, assuming it had been designed into the original plans. $100M extra? No idea

To "retrofit" that into current designs?? Probably not possible in some places. Unless that compartment could be underneath the current field space and it could "sink down"??

 

[Gophers_4life]

Well there you go! Awesome!

It can be done, if you've got the space. Makes perfect sense that the storage area would be a garage during game day.

If you had the space to do it in the original plans.

Retrofitting is a whole nother ball of wax!

 

[Some guy]

Surprised at the support for turf here as it is clearly inferior to grass, causes significantly more injuries and has been linked to cancer as well. Turf simply does not give in the way grass does and will continue to destroy knees at random.
The NFL is the biggest sports league in the world by a good margin; they can afford to figure out a solution. As others have said, soccer doesn’t allow it. Colleges and high schools, fine it’s a cost thing whatever, but the top athletes on the planet should be playing on grass.

It’s clearly inferior to well kept grass for injury purposes

you have proof turf causes cancer? Big, if true

Bad grass is worse than turf for injuries in my experiences. And worse for product quality.

If you could guarantee rose bowl grass for everyone I am all in on grass