Anyone else think Big10 refs makes calls based on statistics and program reputation

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gopherdudepart2

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Big 10 officials are consistient on one thing they will make calls based on reputation and previous games. They say that only the losing teams or fans complain about officiating but in the Big10 conference if your jersey is not, Penn State, OSU, Iowa, or Michigan do you ever get those same calls as those programs.
Just from Saturday there were two instances where you watch the game and you re-watch it and say that is no different then what the other teams guy or players have been playing or doing on that play. The holding call on LT Alford for instance, on that play it looked like Alford just stayed with his block, tried to stay in front of the guy, which he did, the whole way, and they went to the ground together. That flag took a good pass play off the board. I did not see him hook the guy, or clamp on his shoulders or force him to the ground with a tackle it was the momentum of the guys going to the ground(like two bulls squaring horns) and the official anticipates what he sees, well if they drove to the ground together the lineman had to have commited a penalty. On a smiliar play where Moen looks like he is starting to flush Pryor out, he gets hooked on the shoulders, no flag.

The worst call of the game from my perspective was the pass interference penalty on Trey Simmons. Simmons played that ball about as well as you can play it, he had correct position, did not hook the guy or grab the WR at the waste, no early contact really there was no contact on the play until the two players went to the ground together after Simmons deflected the pass away.(We don't even need to talk about #4 Colemans push on Mcknight #83 that was beyond blatant) So a great play by the CB is called a pass interference penalty again because the official anticipated the call and threw the flag without watching the whole play from beginning to end. They watch film, do they ever watch film of where the call they made is wrong? Do they base there calls off of season statistics and program reputation? Sure does seem like it.
 

To address the question posed in your sub-title - no, I don't think so. I think that the incompetence of Big 10 officials knows no team colors...it's universal.
 

I think it's obvious that this is the case, not just in Big Ten football either.
 

I agree with Magpie. There is no question that a winning program is going to get a lot of calls to go its way. I believe that refs have a built in bias that a winning program makes fewer mistakes, as a result they are more reluctant to throw the hankie. When you take that and compound it by all the mistakes MN did make during the OSU game and MN is in a real uphill battle to get calls to go their way.
 

Clyde Tester said:
To address the question posed in your sub-title - no, I don't think so. I think that the incompetence of Big 10 officials knows no team colors...it's universal.
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Pretty much.......

They have nothing to do with our False Starts.......
 


YES. And I believe it happens at a subconscious basis.

Have we ever had a game handed to us? LOL.
 

I have pointed out the difference in holding and PI calls that are made for years now. The Michigan's Ohio State's and the Penn State's of the Big Ten get away with obvious holding
on the big plays that change the course of the game every week. This has been going on for decades not just the past season or two. For the people that don't believe this as fact just record a game and watch the penalties that are called each week. The PI call against Minnesota in the Metrodome 3 years ago that gave Penn State the victory is maybe the worst call made against Minnesota until Saturday when Simmons was called for making the text book defensive play. A team like Florida, USC, Texas along with the top Big Ten teams would never get that call made against them. The official who allowed the interference and interception on the pass thrown to McKnight should be fired today after they review that game.

Holding penalties that are called that kill drives or take point off the board have happened to teams like Minnesota, Kansas, Missouri, Purdue and Northwestern for years while the top teams get away with tackling the defensive linemen all game long and are very rarely called. Wisconsin, Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State have been getting away with this method of blocking for decades.

I would love to see the stats on Pass Interference and Holding penalties that are called on each team. I believe there would be a glaring difference about what the top teams get away with every week and what the mid-level teams get called for consistantly.

One other common thread the teams have that get favorable calls are huge fan bases with huge stadiums. (OSU, Michigan, PSU, Florida, Texas, USC, LSU, and on and on. If these teams had the same calls made against them the officials would have to have special security when leaving the stadiums. Officials have a direct impact on game results much more often that what the fan can imagine.

Just record one of the games this weekend to prove this point. There will be several TD's taken off the board every weekend and see which team the points are taken from.
 

Why would Purdue's opponents be called for more penalties (54.2 yds per game) than Penn State's opponents (38.8 yds per game). The refs are biased more towards Purdue and their reputation?
 





No. And the reason you think they do is a phenomenon called confirmation bias.
 

thailleagle said:
Pretty much.......

They have nothing to do with our False Starts.......
Click to expand...

Find me a college or pro game where a team has no false start/illegal shift/illegal procedure penalties. It ticks me off to see our OL getting false start penalties but you see it with all teams.
 

that's why so many michigan offensive linemen turn out to be duds in the pros. All of a sudden they can't get away with holding every play. I always love how there will be a token holding call against michigan in the last quarter after the game is salted away. The other marquee schools get this treatment as well. There was a definite inequality of what was getting called for holding & pass interference. Maybe it wouldn't be as pronounced if the game was here. And you can't blame the refs for all the false start penalties we got flagged for.

I don't think its anything as sinister as Delaney fixing games, but subconsciously, the refs have to be thinking "gee if I throw this flag against Iowa, does it hurt their chances of playing in a national championship game". That personal foul call against MSU on Iowa's last drive was BS.
 



forestlaker said:
Find me a college or pro game where a team has no false start/illegal shift/illegal procedure penalties. It ticks me off to see our OL getting false start penalties but you see it with all teams.
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stop it
 

I don't think it's an "NBA" like bias. It might be "reputation based" but not in that way. Ref's study film before a game. They might even be briefed on tendencies of teams i.e. does a team throw a lot, run a lot, blitz etc. They have to notice when a team has committed a lot of holding, illegal procedures, hitting after the whistle etc.

It can't be a surprise when those same Refs then are more apt to look for those teams making those mistakes when working the game. I remember that Tiller's Purdue "Basketball on Grass" teams had a reputation of being able to Pass Block without holding. I liked those teams so I'd laugh watching them get away with holding against the Irish, Ohio State, Iowa etc. When they'd play the Gophers however, we'd be screaming murder in the stands or on TV.

We had the same effect on the Refs either way.:mad:
 

I posted something similar to this on another thread, but for me, I have a really hard time accepting personal fouls that are complete judgment calls. Two that stood out this last game were the Stoudemire interference and the Small late hit. Neither should have been called.

The NFL started "protecting" skill players and unfortunately it's filtered down. Until every player on the field is fair game for whatever, the teams with big time skill players/well known players will get the calls. I was having a conversation with a former gopher Olinemen from the 70's. After the Decker blood on chin TD catch against Cal he mentioned that there should be retribution for a blatently dirty hit like that. It used to be taken care of on the field, now refs are supposed to "protect" players whatever that means. More like protect big time Qb's and Wr's, I haven't seen a flag thrown for blowing up a fullback helmet to helmet or a LB getting trapped by a pulling guard helmet to helmet.
 

Yes. The referees wanted OSU to pick-up their level of play and they made a series of calls to try to kick-em'-in-the-ass.
 

There is holding on every play. How often do you see a big play in any level of football, and not have it come back for a holding call -- especially if it's the weaker team or if it's in the fourth quarter.

Refs will usually let teams play, but late game the calls get awfully fishy at times. PSU knows this very well in their history against us.
 

Subconcious or concious, I do believe that better teams get more calls. I believe it's especially evident in college and high school where many times one team is ranked much higher or supposed to be significantly better than the other team. I can't tell you why it happens but I believe it does.

Now, that being said the lesser team must realize that and overcome. No one is every going to accept bias officiating as an excuse for losing.
 

I think better teams get more calls because of the talent difference between them. Their athletes are better, faster, smarter and always a half step ahead. So the other team has to grip, grab, scrape and claw to keep up with them and try to make up that gap.
 

Khaliq said:
I think better teams get more calls because of the talent difference between them. Their athletes are better, faster, smarter and always a half step ahead. So the other team has to grip, grab, scrape and claw to keep up with them and try to make up that gap.
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Bingo.

Who's the hot chick in the avatar? Thought it could have been Ayn Rand, but on closer inspection, it wasn't.
 

I completely agree. Correct me if I am wrong, but doens't the Big Ten conference gain something by sending more teams to larger bowl games? That would explain why referees tend to favor the upper echelon teams. I am sure you all remember the game against penn state a few years back. When do the gophers ever get calls like that favoring us? We don't. We get quite a few questionable calls against us in fact. There have been several instances in the past two games. Some penalties (simmons PI for example) and other calls (penn state TD before half last week). I am just saying that we really don't get the breaks that some of the other teams get.
 

All you have to do is look back at our Penn State game at the dome a few years back to see that some coaches, if not teams in general, get the calls. When Joe, Mad Stork, Paterno came polevaulting down the sidelines towards the ref the yellow flag was out of his pocket so fast he almost broke his wrist. Paterno stole that game from us.
 

Clyde Tester said:
To address the question posed in your sub-title - no, I don't think so. I think that the incompetence of Big 10 officials knows no team colors...it's universal.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree here. Maybe it's the availability of instant replay, but I've never seen officials so tentative in their calls. I think there's just flat-out officiating incompetence--for both sides--on the field every weekend in the Big 10.

There was no excuse on the Coleman no-call. I think that was a reputation call. The game was out-of-hand so the official just let Ohio State bully us for the last quarter. Kind of ridiculous. That's how injuries happen.
 

Refereees never make bad calls on purpose based on the team. But here's what happens. As a MN State HS umpire for a number of years I can speak to experience.

As an official, it is likely you know who is the better team going into the game. So let's say the team that is favored is struggling or behind. Because they are used to winning, you can sense the urgency on their part to come back. But then as an official you start questioning yourself - "Am I the reason this team is trailing - they haven't lost all year!" It enters your subconscious and it can affect your decision-making. Maybe you might call that pitch just off the corner a strike. Maybe you think your zone is too tight against the favored team because you might expect more from them.

In college football it is even more magnified. You know for sure which teams, and even which players are the best on the field. This is why "star" players or favored teams get calls. It doesn't explain every missed call - sometimes you just see it wrong and think you saw something else.

As an official you never want to affect the outcome of the game. So if you know which team is "supposed to win," you subconsciously favor that team because you think they should be winning.
 

Clyde Tester said:
To address the question posed in your sub-title - no, I don't think so. I think that the incompetence of Big 10 officials knows no team colors...it's universal.
Click to expand...

If the incompetence knew no colors, why do the close calls in tight situations always go to the favored team (which is never us)? Sure they called holding on Ohio State last week, after they were ahead 28-0. What a joke. I do not think that its based on the quality of athletes either. BPT made a beautiful play, but because he;'s a Gopher there is a penalty. He didn't need to grab the guy's arm or hand to make the play, he was in great position and made made a great play. I don't know if it would help, but if I were a Gopher coach I would be in the ref's ears from the get go (I'm sure the remaining silent and respectful of the stripes will get you screwed on close calls). I'm also sure that for us to beat an OSU or Michigan by one point we have to outplay them by 8-10 points because the tight calls will always go against us.
 

josh087 said:
Refereees never make bad calls on purpose based on the team. But here's what happens. As a MN State HS umpire for a number of years I can speak to experience.

As an official, it is likely you know who is the better team going into the game. So let's say the team that is favored is struggling or behind. Because they are used to winning, you can sense the urgency on their part to come back. But then as an official you start questioning yourself - "Am I the reason this team is trailing - they haven't lost all year!" It enters your subconscious and it can affect your decision-making. Maybe you might call that pitch just off the corner a strike. Maybe you think your zone is too tight against the favored team because you might expect more from them.

In college football it is even more magnified. You know for sure which teams, and even which players are the best on the field. This is why "star" players or favored teams get calls. It doesn't explain every missed call - sometimes you just see it wrong and think you saw something else.

As an official you never want to affect the outcome of the game. So if you know which team is "supposed to win," you subconsciously favor that team because you think they should be winning.
Click to expand...

Thank you for being honest. If you've watched/played/coached football long enough you can see this at work. As I said before it's no excuse for losing a game but most times the underdog not only has to beat a better team but they have to overcome these subconciously bias calls.

Teams like the gophers need to realize this and overcome. If there is ever a day in the future when the gophers are favored in most games then they will be the ones getting a few calls.
 

Yes I Do

I would think ANY Gopher fan would be able to easily see this.
As Studwell said -- "LOL - When is the last time the Gophers had a
game handed to them."

That's absolutely correct. Over the last 30 years or so, I can not recall a
single time when someone that we played got "jobbed" and we won the game
because of it. For a while, it seemed like every other year or so we lost a game
due to a bad referee decision. I think we lost at least twice to Penn St. due to a
bad call by the ref where Paterno acknowledged it after the game. I seem to
remember a game vs. Wisconsin where the referee didn't know where the end line
of the end zone was and a horrific ending to a Purdue game as well and I am sure
there have been others.

If there is ANYONE who should be happy that we have instant replay, it's teams like
the Gophers that now at least have a chance to overturn a bad call by the refs.

On a side note, can anyone remember a game where the Gophers won where the refs
blew a call and cost the other team???
 

No matter how many anecdotal examples you can come up with one way or the other they're still just that: anecdotes. Unfortunately the plural of anecdotes is not data so it really doesn't tell us anything.

I'm not sure how you could objectively define whether or not major programs get favorable calls above and beyond what the play on the field dictates. The null hypothesis would be that calls are generally even with some discrepancy due to human error that shouldn't be statistically significant over a large enough sample size.

A bunch of "I remember a time when X call went against us" doesn't really move us from that null.
 

Khaliq

LOL........

Well stick those four games (and probably more) where we lost due to the referee's bad calls that
cost us the game into your data banks and see if you can think of a game where we won a
game vs. a higher ranked team. I don't think it is an accident that the Gophers got screwed over
all those times, either. I especially enjoy it when the Big Ten referees will apologize afterward and say, "We are very sorry for costing you the game. Again." That really helps the coaches, players and me feel a lot better.

The latest was the double instant replay this year where they reviewed a play on instant replay, ruled in the Gophers favor, then reviewed it AGAIN and overturned it again. I also hate being leapfrogged in the bowls by teams with worse records, preventing us from going to a better bowl game, but that's another issue. Sorry, but as a longsuffering Gopher football fan, I am sick and tired of the Big Ten pushing us around just because we are amongst the "have-nots" in the league. If there is such thing as a curse, this program must have REALLY pissed someone off
about 50 years ago.

Anyways, you can gather all the data you want if you look hard enough though.....personally I am far too busy (and lazy) to do all that.
 

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