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DarthGopher said:
Team has poor basketball IQ,. I don't know what gets emphasized in practice or in the huddle, but good Lord, are the inmates running the asylum? Why is nobody stepping up or stepping in to get some control over shot selection? If the 3 isn't falling, but you are killing it on 2's, then for the love of Christ, pound the ball inside and then play defense!
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Isn't this common coaching sense? Or a guard who is an upper classman running the show? Shouldn't they both know better?
 

stocker08 said:
Can't win games shooting like that from three. Also......free throw shooting has become a big problem. It's been terrible.
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Where you been the last couple years... Cbj doesn't give a fuck how well we shoot f.t.....
 

MNVCGUY said:
See something like this in baseball where a whole team suddenly can't seem to hit and goes into a collective slump.

Sad that if they were even just hitting an average number of 3s they could have won yesterday for sure and probably against Indiana as well. Very frustrating for everyone involved.
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Agree, but then as a baseball coach, what is your move? I am telling my guys to take more pitches, be selective, cut their swings down to 3/4 to make barrel contact if they have to, quit letting good 1st pitches go by, bunt, run, etc., Beating your head against a wall does nothing...
 


MNVCGUY said:
See something like this in baseball where a whole team suddenly can't seem to hit and goes into a collective slump.

Sad that if they were even just hitting an average number of 3s they could have won yesterday for sure and probably against Indiana as well. Very frustrating for everyone involved.
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I would also argue they could have won if half of those shots were twos instead. They're good at those. And Iowa is horrid at defending them (see MN's percentage from yesterday for evidence).
 


Gopherbbdude said:
That Stat is extremely skewed by the last 2 games.
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Nice catch on statistical skewing, but the problem is we still don't know how to counteract what happened in the last two games to raise that number back up. Until our play changes that is a statistical black-eye. We have to stop punching ourselves in the face so the swelling goes down and we can see the hoop more clearly.
 

Go Gophs said:
Isn't this common coaching sense? Or a guard who is an upper classman running the show? Shouldn't they both know better?
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Not anymore. AAU-style coaching now involves not upsetting your best player(s) by taking them off the floor. The transfer portal is now the same threat as switching clubs to get more playing time.
 

I don't understand?? Thorson was one of the best coaches of all time in MN HS. His teams were disciplined as hell, and rarely took bad shots. They also defended like no other. I understand that Ben is the Head coach and not Thorson, but someone has to have the voice of reality.

This screams of Ben being stubborn and wants to do it his way, IMO.

It is not working!
 

Ewert86PC said:
Not anymore. AAU-style coaching now involves not upsetting your best player(s) by taking them off the floor. The transfer portal is now the same threat as switching clubs to get more playing time.
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Could be, but I will bet coaches like Izzo, Painter, etc wouldn't stand for it. If their guys won't run the show the way they want it run, good coaches will step in and change things, no matter what the level. Being very transparent with players when you do bench them and explaining why it needs to be done a certain way is also allowed.
 



MNVCGUY said:
See something like this in baseball where a whole team suddenly can't seem to hit and goes into a collective slump.

Sad that if they were even just hitting an average number of 3s they could have won yesterday for sure and probably against Indiana as well. Very frustrating for everyone involved.
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Baseball you can still stay in games with pitching and defense. Basketball, you can play defense, play smart, take care of the ball, rebound, etc
At home, big rival, so disappointing.
 

fan of Ray Williams said:
Baseball you can still stay in games with pitching and defense. Basketball, you can play defense, play smart, take care of the ball, rebound, etc
At home, big rival, so disappointing.
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100%. You flat out will never win at Minnesota without playing better defense, smarter guard play and even or above rebounding numbers as your opponents, Effort also can never waiver. We don't get talent here. You will always be at the bottom 1/3 of the conference talent-wise at this University, this is just a fact until there is some sustained winning. It takes great coaching, discipline, etc to win here. Wisconsin has it figured out, they win the Big Ten consistently with bottom 1/2 of the conference talent.
 

Go Gophs said:
100%. You flat out will never win at Minnesota without playing better defense, smarter guard play and even or above rebounding numbers as your opponents, Effort also can never waiver. We don't get talent here. You will always be at the bottom 1/3 of the conference talent-wise at this University, this is just a fact until there is some sustained winning. It takes great coaching, discipline, etc to win here. Wisconsin has it figured out, they win the Big Ten consistently with bottom 1/2 of the conference talent.
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...from Minnesota.
 

Go Gophs said:
100%. You flat out will never win at Minnesota without playing better defense, smarter guard play and even or above rebounding numbers as your opponents, Effort also can never waiver. We don't get talent here. You will always be at the bottom 1/3 of the conference talent-wise at this University, this is just a fact until there is some sustained winning. It takes great coaching, discipline, etc to win here. Wisconsin has it figured out, they win the Big Ten consistently with bottom 1/2 of the conference talent.
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I don't agree that it need be bottom 1/3 talent, but it will also never be top 5. We must have a coach that can take average talent, run a set offensive system and play defense. Ben can get the average talent (marginally) but can't do either of the other two things, it's quite apparent.
 



MNVCGUY said:
See something like this in baseball where a whole team suddenly can't seem to hit and goes into a collective slump.

Sad that if they were even just hitting an average number of 3s they could have won yesterday for sure and probably against Indiana as well. Very frustrating for everyone involved.
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I remember a high school baseball game where the kid threw a no-hitter against us. It was the weirdest feeling - like everyone suddenly forgot how to swing the bat. Once it got rolling, then I think we all started pressing a bit harder, which only threw off our mechanics and timing even worse.

A month later we faced them again in the playoffs. Jumped him for 4 runs in the first inning. I scalded a double that darn near took his head clean off. Big difference in game feel between "I hope I can at least hit it" to "I know I can hit it and hit it hard". Last night looked like a bunch of "I hope it goes in" heaves. They weren't shooting with purpose or confidence.
 

howeda7 said:
I don't agree that it need be bottom 1/3 talent, but it will also never be top 5. We must have a coach that can take average talent, run a set offensive system and play defense. Ben can get the average talent (marginally) but can't do either of the other two things, it's quite apparent.
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I'm with you, it can happen, I just don't THINK we will see better than bottom 1/3 until they win for a few years in a row. The University period is a tough sell, and it's even tougher when you don't have any winning to fall back on. Or any type of identity(as of yet)
 

formerlybis said:
...from Minnesota.
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Doesn't matter where it comes from. They get it from the Midwest and it is not highly regarded. They are in roughly the same boat as us, but they have a WINNING CULTURE to fall back on and also a University that will support them at a college in an area that is alot of fun.
 

Garcia now is 2-20 from three over the last 6-7 games. Many of the misses aren’t even close.
 

Go Gophs said:
Could be, but I will bet coaches like Izzo, Painter, etc wouldn't stand for it. If their guys won't run the show the way they want it run, good coaches will step in and change things, no matter what the level. Being very transparent with players when you do bench them and explaining why it needs to be done a certain way is also allowed.
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Some how transparency and learning to coach seem at odds.
 

Go Gophs said:
Doesn't matter where it comes from. They get it from the Midwest and it is not highly regarded. They are in roughly the same boat as us, but they have a WINNING CULTURE to fall back on and also a University that will support them at a college in an area that is alot of fun.
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Not disagreeing. I was just pointing out that it seems like it can be done with local talent. A lot/most of those guys who have ended up at UW have been serious contributors, but you have to wonder whether this staff - or previous ones - would have been able to utilize them to their max potential. Actually, you don't have to wonder at all...
 

Gopherbbdude said:
So if the hit 10 of 29 from 3 and beat Iowa tonight CBJ is still a horseshit coach???

25 of the 29 3s were wide open and they have been making them all year....... 2 games of bad shooting doesnt make CBJ a horrible coach .

My 2 cents
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Here are the 6 B1G games from 3:
4/14: 29% (@ OSU)
8/25: 32% (Neb)
10/24: 42% (@ Mich)
6/23: 26% (MD)
3/20: 15% (@ Ind)
5/29: 17% (Iowa)

I would argue there's one outlier here and it's the Michigan game. They're shooting 23% outside Crisler Arena in league play.
 

formerlybis said:
Here are the 6 B1G games from 3:
4/14: 29% (@ OSU)
8/25: 32% (Neb)
10/24: 42% (@ Mich)
6/23: 26% (MD)
3/20: 15% (@ Ind)
5/29: 17% (Iowa)

I would argue there's one outlier here and it's the Michigan game. They're shooting 23% outside Crisler Arena in league play.
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As much as I hate having Draconian measures imposed on me, if the players aren't able to police themselves, then perhaps there needs to be an intervention.

Implement some kind of measurement where they can get up to 5 attempts to start. Anything less than 40%, (2 of 5) they stop taking them. If you are shooting sub 25% on the season, maybe lower it to 3 or 4 attempts.

If they make it out of the preliminary round, if at any point the percentage dips below say 38'ish%, stop.

Failure to follow said rule will mean the player has chosen to remove himself from the game and his a$$ will be on the pine for an extended period of time.

I feel it changes the psychology a bit where a player needs to be more selective to ensure the highest possible make opportunity so they can continue to shoot 3's. It cuts down on jacking shots stupidly and hurriedly and wasting possessions.

I helped coach club teams where I would gather stats and run analytics all by my lonesome. I had to have some hard conversations with kids who were killing the team with their judicious use of the 3 point shot. As in, either start making them, or you stop shooting them. As if by some miracle, they stopped taking stupid 3's, started taking more measured attempts, and their make percentage increased significantly. As a result, we won several games we otherwise probably lose, especially if it was close (10 points or less).

The U has a team of stat trackers. Friggin' use it. Playing time is the only currency a coach has that means anything to the player.

1705443139948.png
 

DarthGopher said:
As much as I hate having Draconian measures imposed on me, if the players aren't able to police themselves, then perhaps there needs to be an intervention.

Implement some kind of measurement where they can get up to 5 attempts to start. Anything less than 40%, (2 of 5) they stop taking them. If you are shooting sub 25% on the season, maybe lower it to 3 or 4 attempts.

If they make it out of the preliminary round, if at any point the percentage dips below say 38'ish%, stop.

Failure to follow said rule will mean the player has chosen to remove himself from the game and his a$$ will be on the pine for an extended period of time.

I feel it changes the psychology a bit where a player needs to be more selective to ensure the highest possible make opportunity so they can continue to shoot 3's. It cuts down on jacking shots stupidly and hurriedly and wasting possessions.

I helped coach club teams where I would gather stats and run analytics all by my lonesome. I had to have some hard conversations with kids who were killing the team with their judicious use of the 3 point shot. As in, either start making them, or you stop shooting them. As if by some miracle, they stopped taking stupid 3's, started taking more measured attempts, and their make percentage increased significantly. As a result, we won several games we otherwise probably lose, especially if it was close (10 points or less).

The U has a team of stat trackers. Friggin' use it. Playing time is the only currency a coach has that means anything to the player.

View attachment 29592
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Those stats look fine on the year, but there's a difference between playing IU and IUPUI...
 

DarthGopher said:
As much as I hate having Draconian measures imposed on me, if the players aren't able to police themselves, then perhaps there needs to be an intervention.

Implement some kind of measurement where they can get up to 5 attempts to start. Anything less than 40%, (2 of 5) they stop taking them. If you are shooting sub 25% on the season, maybe lower it to 3 or 4 attempts.

If they make it out of the preliminary round, if at any point the percentage dips below say 38'ish%, stop.

Failure to follow said rule will mean the player has chosen to remove himself from the game and his a$$ will be on the pine for an extended period of time.

I feel it changes the psychology a bit where a player needs to be more selective to ensure the highest possible make opportunity so they can continue to shoot 3's. It cuts down on jacking shots stupidly and hurriedly and wasting possessions.

I helped coach club teams where I would gather stats and run analytics all by my lonesome. I had to have some hard conversations with kids who were killing the team with their judicious use of the 3 point shot. As in, either start making them, or you stop shooting them. As if by some miracle, they stopped taking stupid 3's, started taking more measured attempts, and their make percentage increased significantly. As a result, we won several games we otherwise probably lose, especially if it was close (10 points or less).

The U has a team of stat trackers. Friggin' use it. Playing time is the only currency a coach has that means anything to the player.

View attachment 29592
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Moneyball! I like it. Billy Beane would be proud.
We should try to find a guard named Hatteberg in the portal
 

What is the root cause? (sorry this is a long one)

The 3s in the last 2 games are a symptom (same as free throws last year)

I believe it has to do with the maturity and finesse of where Ben is at as a coach and his ability to instill confidence in the players (plain and simple). The team is an extension of Ben while on the court and right now they are tentative, unsure, overly cautious at times, lil too much hi fiving at times, and little too much fear of failure throughout. Watch Ben during the press conference - he does not want to be in the spotlight right now. These are 20 year old kids with a ton of pressure on them - they need the confidence of a mature coach. Our older players are overcoming but get frustrated when the other players shots are not falling. This results in the frustrated body language some see here.

Ben needs to work on himself and overcome this quickly. He has the talent and overall he is doing a decent job of recruiting, player development, game plans, and adjustments.

Consider Michigan State, Izzo has a ton of passion during the highs and lows but overall he exudes confidence and his players feed off of it (he is just one example out there). His team makes mistakes but overall they are always in it because of their identity as an Izzo team.

Ben - I would like to see your Cold Blooded Killer side from here on out. I know you have attitude in there somewhere - we need more "I promise you we will not finish last in the bigten" promises not less.
 

CPTMidnight said:
What is the root cause? (sorry this is a long one)

The 3s in the last 2 games are a symptom (same as free throws last year)

I believe it has to do with the maturity and finesse of where Ben is at as a coach and his ability to instill confidence in the players (plain and simple). The team is an extension of Ben while on the court and right now they are tentative, unsure, overly cautious at times, lil too much hi fiving at times, and little too much fear of failure throughout. Watch Ben during the press conference - he does not want to be in the spotlight right now. These are 20 year old kids with a ton of pressure on them - they need the confidence of a mature coach. Our older players are overcoming but get frustrated when the other players shots are not falling. This results in the frustrated body language some see here.

Ben needs to work on himself and overcome this quickly. He has the talent and overall he is doing a decent job of recruiting, player development, game plans, and adjustments.

Consider Michigan State, Izzo has a ton of passion during the highs and lows but overall he exudes confidence and his players feed off of it (he is just one example out there). His team makes mistakes but overall they are always in it because of their identity as an Izzo team.

Ben - I would like to see your Cold Blooded Killer side from here on out. I know you have attitude in there somewhere - we need more "I promise you we will not finish last in the bigten" promises not less.
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Izzo isn't a great comp because his teams are usually full of high-end talent, at least by the recruitniks' measures. They can make mistakes because they can easily just increase effort and out-talent you. This is not the case here. Effort and energy are positive things - increase those. But I would prefer cold-blooded execution of a recognizable plan.
 

I don’t know our players previous stats from 3 but the brick laying is so prevalent that it does not feel like we can “ shoot our way “ out of it. There are great shooters who have slumps and they do have to shoot their way out. It does feel like way too often we settle for the 3 without good player/ ball movement.
 

formerlybis said:
Here are the 6 B1G games from 3:
4/14: 29% (@ OSU)
8/25: 32% (Neb)
10/24: 42% (@ Mich)
6/23: 26% (MD)
3/20: 15% (@ Ind)
5/29: 17% (Iowa)

I would argue there's one outlier here and it's the Michigan game. They're shooting 23% outside Crisler Arena in league play.
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Shoot even 30% and they are 5-1
 



formerlybis said:
Again, they are #1 in the league at 2P%. They could be 5-1 if they just take more 2s instead.
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Even more specifically, they have to figure out how to emphasize getting the ball inside to Garcia and JOJ or Payne (when they're able to stay on the court). I'm sure you know this, but there's a considerable difference in value between 2s at the rim and all other 2s. Via T-Rank I looked at the makes/attempts in each category (Close 2s, Far 2s, and 3s); in conference play the Gophers are getting 1.38 points per attempt at the rim (82 makes/119 attempts), 0.83 points per attempt on long 2s (39 makes/94 attempts), and 0.80 points per attempt on 3s (36 makes/135 attempts). So, they are getting almost the same value on long 2 attempts and 3 attempts.

Now, almost all really good teams these days get a good deal more points per shot value on their 3 attempts than their long 2s, but clearly the Gophers are going to have to adjust their emphasis in the process towards increasing their 3 point shot quality - it's not going to happen by just saying "keep letting it rain" like the past two games - and again I would suggest focusing particularly on getting the ball inside to those three guys (Garcia/JOJ/Payne have, as you'd probably guess, over 80% of the current amount of close 2 makes in conference).
 

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