3-3-5 defense

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Gophergrandpa said:
It's called a 3-3-5, but it really is just a shape-shifting thing. I was at the game, in a lower seat. From my vantage point, it seemed as though Neb almost always had at least 5, and sometimes 6 or 7, on or near the LOS pre-snap. Very hard for OL to understand assignments in run game. At the snap, sometimes all 6 or 7 would come; more often some would drop off the line into coverage or second level defensive position. A few times, a blitz came from a position not part of the "stacked" line. It is very hard to run against such a formation, really a stacked box not a three man front, unless you guess right as to a weak gap. How to beat it? By passing, which is what the Gophers did. Athan threw 44 times versus 24 rushing attempts. Our OL gave very good pass protection; only one breakdown. As Athan matures and gains better coordination with his receiver corps, I think we will play better against the "3-3-5." Good route running and separation are the key to beating this defense, since it will be in man coverage when the box is stacked. Check out the superb route Jackson ran on the 4th down TD to tie the game. The route, creating separation, was almost as beautiful as the superbly athletic catch.
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This is also why so many of our runs were for 2 to 3 yards. The hole is there, or so it seems, until the LB's and secondary flood the point of attack. It gums up the hole really quick. It is not run stuffing at the line of scrimmage so much, but rather it invites the ball carrier into an ambush a couple yards past it.

As you stated, the way to beat is passing, and a lot of those will be short dinks and dunks, because it can also take away deep threats with an extra DB-type person to provide coverage over the top.
 

BilldGopher said:
We beat the triple option with a month to prepare against GT...

Maybe we should play football year round with a month between games so we can beat a 3-3-5, 1-5-5, or whatever...:p
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They had over a month to prepare for White's Syracuse 3-3-5 and had less than 200 yards of offense. They had 8 months to prepare for White's Nebraska 3-3-5 and had 251 yards of offense. 55 rushing.

Although, they did win both games, so I guess by that measure you can say time to prepare let them beat the 3-3-5.
 


DarthGopher said:
This is also why so many of our runs were for 2 to 3 yards. The hole is there, or so it seems, until the LB's and secondary flood the point of attack. It gums up the hole really quick. It is not run stuffing at the line of scrimmage so much, but rather it invites the ball carrier into an ambush a couple yards past it.

As you stated, the way to beat is passing, and a lot of those will be short dinks and dunks, because it can also take away deep threats with an extra DB-type person to provide coverage over the top.
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That was a great description. Yea, I can remember Tyler facing the defenders and showing some movement to work for another half yard but nowhere to go.

For future games, I can imagine Tyler getting loose for a long run through evasiveness but not knocking the guy over.
 

Gophergrandpa said:
It's called a 3-3-5, but it really is just a shape-shifting thing. I was at the game, in a lower seat. From my vantage point, it seemed as though Neb almost always had at least 5, and sometimes 6 or 7, on or near the LOS pre-snap. Very hard for OL to understand assignments in run game. At the snap, sometimes all 6 or 7 would come; more often some would drop off the line into coverage or second level defensive position. A few times, a blitz came from a position not part of the "stacked" line. It is very hard to run against such a formation, really a stacked box not a three man front, unless you guess right as to a weak gap. How to beat it? By passing, which is what the Gophers did. Athan threw 44 times versus 24 rushing attempts. Our OL gave very good pass protection; only one breakdown. As Athan matures and gains better coordination with his receiver corps, I think we will play better against the "3-3-5." Good route running and separation are the key to beating this defense, since it will be in man coverage when the box is stacked. Check out the superb route Jackson ran on the 4th down TD to tie the game. The route, creating separation, was almost as beautiful as the superbly athletic catch.
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This is your answer. ^ . Route running, seperation on quick hitting routes /slants are key.
 


Some guy said:
part of the reason many of the runs didn’t work last night was running backs overrunning the holes. Especially in the first half I noticed this
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Yes. That too. Part of what made Mo so effective was his patience and vision. That and having a lower body like a Belgian draft horse. Even in an ambush he could plow forward another yard or two.
 

Whatever they call the defense, NE gave the MN QB way too much time except on the rare occasion that they ran a blitz which often succeeded.
It really depends on the quality and coaching of the players far more than the scheme.
 

SHGopher said:
That was a great description. Yea, I can remember Tyler facing the defenders and showing some movement to work for another half yard but nowhere to go.

For future games, I can imagine Tyler getting loose for a long run through evasiveness but not knocking the guy over.
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That is where a wrecking ball like Mo can turn 2 to 3 yards runs into 3 or 4, even 5 yard runs. It makes a big difference over the course of a game. By the 3rd quarter the LB's are sick of hitting and trying to bring down a beast like that. Then they turn into 6 or 7 yard runs.

I would have liked to have seen some off tackle runs, but the way Nebraska's LB's and secondary were flying around the field, I'm not sure it would have been anymore successful.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
…and I don't think Bryce Williams is going to be super effective against Big 10 opponents. I like Bryce and he has a role, but we need one of those young guys to step up and split the carries with Tyler.
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My observation from being there and not yet watching the replay is that Bryce did the best job of picking up a free-runner/blitzer than anyone else. I think he’s the best back we have for pass protection.

He is also the type of runner that that if you need 2 he’ll get you 3 and if you need 4, he’ll get you 3. He does not go backwards, and I would not be surprised to see him on the field more if we do indeed become a more pass-happy team.

This was still week 1 so I expect a lot of changes and different looks over the next 4-5 weeks.
 



Unregistered User said:
My observation from being there and not yet watching the replay is that Bryce did the best job of picking up a free-runner/blitzer than anyone else. I think he’s the best back we have for pass protection.

He is also the type of runner that that if you need 2 he’ll get you 3 and if you need 4, he’ll get you 3. He does not go backwards, and I would not be surprised to see him on the field more if we do indeed become a more pass-happy team.

This was still week 1 so I expect a lot of changes and different looks over the next 4-5 weeks.
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100%. Bryce is fantastic and our best blocking RB. That should be most of his role on this team.
 

OP is spot on.

While it was not 100% of it, the defensive scheme is a significant part of the reason we did not run the ball like we are used to seeing.

Wisc did not run a 3-3-5 under Chryst/Leonhard, but they did run a 30 front and have for quite a while. Point being, we didn't run for a lot of yards against them either!

I would say 30 front defenses are hard to run the ball against. That's what they were designed for. Actually, I believe they were invented as an answer to the Veer Option that, up until that, could not be stopped.


It was already said that you don't see them as often, which is a good point.

I just think a lot of modern run blocking plays are designed with going against a standard 40 front where you see a 1-tech and 3-tech big boys and a 5-tech standard ends (or 6/9 tech if you have a TE in your formation). Then 30 fronts change everything about that. You have to come up with an entirely new set of rules. Perhaps different combo blocks.

You might have more OL chasing around smaller, faster LB or LB/DE hybrid sized guys.

There are probably more reasons.
 


MplsGopher said:
OP is spot on.

While it was not 100% of it, the defensive scheme is a significant part of the reason we did not run the ball like we are used to seeing.

Wisc did not run a 3-3-5 under Chryst/Leonhard, but they did run a 30 front and have for quite a while. Point being, we didn't run for a lot of yards against them either!

I would say 30 front defenses are hard to run the ball against. That's what they were designed for. Actually, I believe they were invented as an answer to the Veer Option that, up until that, could not be stopped.


It was already said that you don't see them as often, which is a good point.

I just think a lot of modern run blocking plays are designed with going against a standard 40 front where you see a 1-tech and 3-tech big boys and a 5-tech standard ends (or 6/9 tech if you have a TE in your formation). Then 30 fronts change everything about that. You have to come up with an entirely new set of rules. Perhaps different combo blocks.

You might have more OL chasing around smaller, faster LB or LB/DE hybrid sized guys.

There are probably more reasons.
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The LB or LB/DE hybrid is going to win the position battle in space more times than not against a larger, less nimble OL. Throw in the 3-3-5's ability to stash them in places OL's are not used to blocking and it makes it that much harder for holes to stay open. I can see why it would counter a triple option threat effectively - many combinations of defensive players to swarm the point of attack.
 



Unregistered User said:
My observation from being there and not yet watching the replay is that Bryce did the best job of picking up a free-runner/blitzer than anyone else. I think he’s the best back we have for pass protection.

He is also the type of runner that that if you need 2 he’ll get you 3 and if you need 4, he’ll get you 3. He does not go backwards, and I would not be surprised to see him on the field more if we do indeed become a more pass-happy team.

This was still week 1 so I expect a lot of changes and different looks over the next 4-5 weeks.
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Breyer is also the most dependable RB receiver on a swing pass out of the backfield. Gets positive yardage.
 

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