25 LGBT groups ask Big 12 to not take BYU in expansion

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If you're gay, why would you go to BYU in the first place?

Essentially, anyone at BYU who participates in a same-sex relationship is in violation of the honor code.
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Isn't it also against their honor code to have sex before marriage whether you are gay or not? There was just a basketball player who was suspended recently because of this.
 

GophersInIowa said:
If you're gay, why would you go to BYU in the first place?



Isn't it also against their honor code to have sex before marriage whether you are gay or not? There was just a basketball player who was suspended recently because of this.
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It's a valid question. I am not gay or religious so I don't exactly know how one would feel, but you have to assume that some % of Mormons are gay and they probably face an internal struggle that nobody should have to deal with. That being said, I'm pretty sure Baylor is as anti-LGBT as just about any school in this country so its not like BYU is alone in their bigotry.
 

It's an interesting question, but BYU is also a private university and they get to make their own choices.

It's not as if BYU is out patrolling their campus and abducting LGBT folks who wander onto campus. And I don't think visiting athletes would be at any risk at all. Even their own students are free to attend other educational institutions if needed.

If BYU was enforcing their view on visitors and etc it would be one thing, but they're not so I'm not sure that means you necessarily have to exclude them because their religious beliefs are different than some of your social beliefs.
 


If a school didn't let people into their schools, or discriminated because of race, there would be riots. But gays are OK to exclude because it's a "religious" school? That's a tough pill to swallow.

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Lordshawesome said:
If a school didn't let people into their schools, or discriminated because of race, there would be riots. But gays are OK to exclude because it's a "religious" school? That's a tough pill to swallow.

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Interesting point. Although I think the riot part is over played, I do agree that there would be some pushback. I do recall Pilsbury Baptist having a rule in the early 80's about black athletes needing permission to date white females. I am sure that the school wasn't a big draw for black or other "minority" females, but there was no such rule for females of other ethnic backrounds. One would think personal conduct and ability to learn should matter most.
 

Lordshawesome said:
If a school didn't let people into their schools, or discriminated because of race, there would be riots. But gays are OK to exclude because it's a "religious" school? That's a tough pill to swallow.

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This is a pretty lame argument. BYU's reason for existing is to advance the Mormon religion. Mormons adhere to moral teachings that no matter what you're internally inclined to do, to be a practicing Mormon you have to set certain limits on your behavior. Doing this is 100% voluntary. No one has to attend that school if they don't agree with its standards and doctrines.

Now I'm not a Mormon, and personally I believe Mormonism is merely a popular cult, but if we have religious liberty in this country, to exclude a religious school from an athletic conference because of its teachings is discrimination.
 

everybody knows my name said:
This is a pretty lame argument. BYU's reason for existing is to advance the Mormon religion. Mormons adhere to moral teachings that no matter what you're internally inclined to do, to be a practicing Mormon you have to set certain limits on your behavior. Doing this is 100% voluntary. No one has to attend that school if they don't agree with its standards and doctrines.

Now I'm not a Mormon, and personally I believe Mormonism is merely a popular cult, but if we have religious liberty in this country, to exclude a religious school from an athletic conference because of its teachings is discrimination.
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I'm having a tough time with this argument. What if a school's reason for existing was to advance the white race? Or what if the reason for the school is to advance the Mormon religion -- but Mormons adhere to teachings that promote whites over blacks? It would be 100% voluntary. Would that still be okay?

I somewhat agree that as a private school BYU has some leeway. But as a conference, so does the Pac 12.
 





Hates Monikers said:
I'm having a tough time with this argument. What if a school's reason for existing was to advance the white race? Or what if the reason for the school is to advance the Mormon religion -- but Mormons adhere to teachings that promote whites over blacks? It would be 100% voluntary. Would that still be okay?

I somewhat agree that as a private school BYU has some leeway. But as a conference, so does the Pac 12.
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Actually the Book of Mormon does have passages stating that dark skin is a curse and a sign of disfavor from God, but who knows if the average Mormon believes that. It seems the church may have rescinded some of these sorts of statements.
 

And herein lies the problem that we run into with such a broad definition of "Religious Freedom". If a religion discriminates against a group, who do we protect? The discriminated group, or the religion? And also, teachings of a religion can be interpreted many ways, what if certain people interpret a part of a religion as meaning they must discriminate against a group, but others interpret it differently. Who's right?

That being said, as mentioned, both the Big 12 and BYU are private entities. BYU can do what they want in terms of barring certain groups of people from enrollment, and the Big 12 is perfectly allowed to say "Nah, you can't do that anymore if you want to join us"
 



everybody knows my name said:
This is a pretty lame argument. BYU's reason for existing is to advance the Mormon religion. Mormons adhere to moral teachings that no matter what you're internally inclined to do, to be a practicing Mormon you have to set certain limits on your behavior. Doing this is 100% voluntary. No one has to attend that school if they don't agree with its standards and doctrines.

Now I'm not a Mormon, and personally I believe Mormonism is merely a popular cult, but if we have religious liberty in this country, to exclude a religious school from an athletic conference because of its teachings is discrimination.
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It was only in the 70s that Mormon doctrine was changed, to no longer say black people were tainted & inferior to white men. So yes, their hypocrisy is a bit hard to swallow. The diversity of public universities are the lifeblood of the true college experience. So for public schools to want to interject another voice, that is in obvious conflict of interest to the culture your students embody, seems an unappealing prospect. I also think Baylor or any private, religious based university has some inherent conflicts of interest with public state schools.

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Lordshawesome said:
If a school didn't let people into their schools, or discriminated because of race, there would be riots. But gays are OK to exclude because it's a "religious" school? That's a tough pill to swallow.
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Shall we ignore the all-female institutions from your statement? I don't see anyone rioting at St. Kate's. Although, I'm sure that doesn't fit your narrative.
 

Sparlimb said:
Shall we ignore the all-female institutions from your statement? I don't see anyone rioting at St. Kate's. Although, I'm sure that doesn't fit your narrative.
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Not at all, I think all gender schools are messed up too. Lok

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It's looking more and more like it will be Cincinnati and Houston to the Big XII if they do end up expanding.
 

Lordshawesome;1233032[B said:
]It was only in the 70s that Mormon doctrine was changed, to no longer say black people were tainted & inferior to white men.[/B] So yes, their hypocrisy is a bit hard to swallow. The diversity of public universities are the lifeblood of the true college experience. So for public schools to want to interject another voice, that is in obvious conflict of interest to the culture your students embody, seems an unappealing prospect. I also think Baylor or any private, religious based university has some inherent conflicts of interest with public state schools.

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I recall hearing something like that as well. My guess is much discussion will take place before they enter a power 5 conference. As Taji34 stated;"BYU can do what they want in terms of barring certain groups of people from enrollment, and the Big 12 is perfectly allowed to say "Nah, you can't do that anymore if you want to join us".
 

STPGopher said:
I recall hearing something like that as well. My guess is much discussion will take place before they enter a power 5 conference. As Taji34 stated;"BYU can do what they want in terms of barring certain groups of people from enrollment, and the Big 12 is perfectly allowed to say "Nah, you can't do that anymore if you want to join us".
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Just so that people know context, I said that they can do that because they are both private institutions. If BYU was public, it'd be a whole different story.
 

Taji34 said:
Just so that people know context, I said that they can do that because they are both private institutions. If BYU was public, it'd be a whole different story.
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Understood.
 

There has to be a distinction made here between identity and conduct. BYU doesn't ban people with same-sex attractions. They only insist that the urge be resisted, in accordance with the religious teachings that are the reason for the very existence of the school.
 

Interesting argument. I think that BYU doctrine exposes themselves to this type of reaction. On the other hand I am pretty sure that all visiting team players would be treated with respect and kindness while visiting BYU. I recall a UNLV player saying that his least favorite road trip was to BYU, even though, he said, "they are so nice to us there." But maybe niceness is not the point. I also think that some of the changes in the Mormon church are the result of things being "revealed" to their president. And things seem to be readily revealed when things like their tax exempt status is challenged. My wife is Mormon and many of her friends are some of the nicest people I have ever met, that being said, I disagree with some Mormon beliefs.
 

everybody knows my name said:
This is a pretty lame argument. BYU's reason for existing is to advance the Mormon religion. Mormons adhere to moral teachings that no matter what you're internally inclined to do, to be a practicing Mormon you have to set certain limits on your behavior. Doing this is 100% voluntary. No one has to attend that school if they don't agree with its standards and doctrines.

Now I'm not a Mormon, and personally I believe Mormonism is merely a popular cult, but if we have religious liberty in this country, to exclude a religious school from an athletic conference because of its teachings is discrimination.
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+1 I could not have said it better myself.

I would be extremely disappointed in the Big 12 if they caved in to the pressure from these outside groups.
 

die hard gopher said:
+1 I could not have said it better myself.

I would be extremely disappointed in the Big 12 if they caved in to the pressure from these outside groups.
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So the Mormon voice is to be listened to, but the lgbt community shouldn't?

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I don't think the Mormons are trying to be heard. They're just trying to participate in sports. The LGBT activists are trying to squash that participation because they don't like the Mormons' beliefs, even when those beliefs don't affect them.
 

Also, I don't believe there has ever been a documented case where a visiting athlete or coach of an opposing team has ever been affected or "discriminated against" due to BYU's belief's or honor code. It only affects those within the BYU community.
 

Sparlimb said:
Shall we ignore the all-female institutions from your statement? I don't see anyone rioting at St. Kate's. Although, I'm sure that doesn't fit your narrative.
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Seeing my wife and one of my sisters are graduates, I will say this. You can take classes at St. Catherine's. In fact it is more common than you think.
 

GophersInIowa said:
If you're gay, why would you go to BYU in the first place?



Isn't it also against their honor code to have sex before marriage whether you are gay or not? There was just a basketball player who was suspended recently because of this.
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Problem is you cannot come out at BYU as a gay person who does not have sex.

I know you know this and I don't mean to be harsh, but there is more to being gay than sex. There are some fairly terrible stories/ memoirs about Mormon teens who have come as gay and been forcibly confined for treatment.*

*Sorry, no link. I just googled gay Mormon teen and need to shower. Apparently porn knows no bounds.
 

Being Mormon is a choice. being discriminated against isn't.

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Sparlimb said:
Shall we ignore the all-female institutions from your statement? I don't see anyone rioting at St. Kate's. Although, I'm sure that doesn't fit your narrative.
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My wife used to teach at St. Kate's, and while it is predominately female, she had one or two guys in her classes...maybe it is a 'sister school' with a different one - I don't know. I'm sure if a male wanted to challenge the status quo at St. Kate's, he could do so with a lot more ease than an open homosexual at BYU. You have to consider power dynamics when confronting discrimination...straight white males have no legit basis for victimhood (not saying we don't face discrimination, but when the world is your oyster, you don't get much sympathy - not saying it is right or wrong).
 

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