2023 MN High School Football season

[disco]

Hockey went to two classes in the early 90s when the state legislature passed a law mandating it. After a dismal two-year experiment with "tiers" based on that season's won-loss record - which led to things like Rosemount playing in the "small school" class - they went to two classes based on size; some tradition rich small schools (Roseau, Hill Murray), or financially rich schools (Benilde, St. Thomas Academy) opt up to the higher class. That Hermantown stays in Class A after playing at the AA level throughout youth hockey, and scheduling mostly AA teams in the high school regular season, should profoundly embarrass everyone involved with the entire program, but somehow does not.

I thought Hermantown was finally going to move up.

I can't remember. Why does Roseau opt up, and Warroad does not?

 

[Ope3]

I thought Hermantown was finally going to move up.

I can't remember. Why does Roseau opt up, and Warroad does not?

Pride.

 

[MNfootballfan]

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"His departure comes not from a singular incident but from a series of minor disagreements on protocol and administrative visions."

Whatever that entails?

I know nothing about Maple Grove football or this situation, but could be minor disagreements like who gets to use the stadium field in the summer, weight room access for players, etc and could be enough of the minor disagreements where there is finally a straw that breaks the camel's back and they both just agree to go different directions.

** I know nothing about the situation - I was just thinking of what minor disagreements could look like? **

 

[GophersInIowa]

Two class hockey hasn't been around forever. I'm not a hockey guy but my recollection is that the split happened within the last 20 years. And I recall that some of the northern traditional hockey powers played up to AA although having A enrollment, but eventually migrated down to A.

In the late 90's basketball went from two classes to a single champion. I believe this was '96 or '97. Minneapolis North won both years (not without some drama in '97). After a couple of decades of two class basketball, no one was too excited about it and we returned to multi-class basketball thereafter.

I would guess the hockey people would come to the same conclusion as the basketball people.

I would be interested in what the thinking was behind the Sweet 16 years. Had it's moments but wasn't a good idea long term.

 

[MNfootballfan]

I would be interested in what the thinking was behind the Sweet 16 years. Had it's moments but wasn't a good idea long term.

It would be interesting - when Braham had their dynasty in the early-to-mid 2000s they beat Hopkins one year and Hopkins won 4A. Minnehaha won a 2A and 3A championship, guessing they would have whatever class they wanted to play. Probably safe to assume some of Thorson's DLS Islander teams would have competed with anyone in the state.

In basketball all it takes is 1-2 studs and some solid role players and you could have a team that could compete with anyone in the state.

I don't know where I stand - is it better if you are a small school to win class A or to know you are literally the 3rd best team (or wherever you finished) in the state?

 

[MaxyJR1]

I know nothing about Maple Grove football or this situation, but could be minor disagreements like who gets to use the stadium field in the summer, weight room access for players, etc and could be enough of the minor disagreements where there is finally a straw that breaks the camel's back and they both just agree to go different directions.

** I know nothing about the situation - I was just thinking of what minor disagreements could look like? **

Agree. Schools are very hard to work with, especially when districts have multiple high schools that need to be treated equitably. It always floors me on social media to see how many football programs have, what seems, unlimited resources and access to fields, weights, and space, yet my district seems to be so closed to this.

 

[MaxyJR1]

I would be interested in what the thinking was behind the Sweet 16 years. Had it's moments but wasn't a good idea long term.

I think it was just a wild hair by someone to crown one champ like back in the day or Indiana. I was part of a team that played in it and they eliminated the consolation brackets at that time too. We played one game and went home.

 

[swede2]

I think it was just a wild hair by someone to crown one champ like back in the day or Indiana. I was part of a team that played in it and they eliminated the consolation brackets at that time too. We played one game and went home.

The big push was enthusiasm (or lack thereof). Attendance at the state tourney was abysmal. The single championship didn't help and the idea was ditched. Did an A team make it to either championship? My recollection is that one year it was North and St Thomas Academy. I don't remember the other.

 

[MaxyJR1]

The big push was enthusiasm (or lack thereof). Attendance at the state tourney was abysmal. The single championship didn't help and the idea was ditched. Did an A team make it to either championship? My recollection is that one year it was North and St Thomas Academy. I don't remember the other.

Staples-Motley in '95 and Fertile-Beltrami in '96. North beat SM by holding the ball for the last 3 minutes of the game and scoring to win by 2 and blew out FB.

STA was the Semi-Final.

4 Class was adopted in 1997.

 

[GopherRock]

The big push was enthusiasm (or lack thereof). Attendance at the state tourney was abysmal. The single championship didn't help and the idea was ditched. Did an A team make it to either championship? My recollection is that one year it was North and St Thomas Academy. I don't remember the other.

The other team North beat was Staples-Motley.

IMHO, the current four-class product is a result of the League panicking after Khalid El-Amin's Minneapolis North teams won both Sweet 16 titles.

 

[MplsGopher]

Sections has always been the most important games.

Section tournaments are an abomination to the regular season.

Wisconsin gets it right.

I was attempting to at least preserve the BS "geographic representation" mandate from the MSHSL.

 

[MplsGopher]

Because ranking HS teams is hard and there is no doubt it would be unbalanced to the metro area.

Nah.

Also I already solved that by maintaining that every section gets their best team in automatically.

Correct

 

[MplsGopher]

That Hermantown stays in Class A after playing at the AA level throughout youth hockey, and scheduling mostly AA teams in the high school regular season, should profoundly embarrass everyone involved with the entire program, but somehow does not.

I guess trophies do that.

Same thing for gutless NDSU not moving up to FBS when they have a clear, legal path to do so (follow precedent set by Liberty).

 

[disco]

I guess trophies do that.

Same thing for gutless NDSU not moving up to FBS when they have a clear, legal path to do so (follow precedent set by Liberty).

Liberty is a private school with a LOT of money. Apples and oranges. It's not all about competition. Liberty could afford to buy their way in essentially. The Dakota schools can't.

 

[disco]

Staples-Motley in '95 and Fertile-Beltrami in '96. North beat SM by holding the ball for the last 3 minutes of the game and scoring to win by 2 and blew out FB.

STA was the Semi-Final.

4 Class was adopted in 1997.

Isn't North an A team based on enrollment? That's a pretty small school, plus the reduced lunch factor.

I'd forgotten about the holding the ball story. Surprised that didn't result in a push for a shot clock back then.

 

[disco]

Agree. Schools are very hard to work with, especially when districts have multiple high schools that need to be treated equitably. It always floors me on social media to see how many football programs have, what seems, unlimited resources and access to fields, weights, and space, yet my district seems to be so closed to this.

I could see that. And the Osseo district has three really different high schools in Maple Grove, Osseo and Park Center. Obviously demographics are very different between the three, but I have to imagine that it's hard for the district to keep facilities and amenities equal. Maple Grove high school is newer and really nice - like Wayzata and Eden Prairie. My son played in a basketball tournament at Osseo this year, and it's pretty run down as is the campus. Park Center is the same way.

(I'm sure mplsgopher will chime in about how these schools shouldn't be in the same district because he knows nothing about how government works.)

 

[MplsGopher]

The Dakota schools can't.

Nonsense. They choose not to

 

[MplsGopher]

(I'm sure mplsgopher will chime in about how these schools shouldn't be in the same district

Correct. Affluent/upper middle class areas should not be in the same public school districts as poor/lower middle areas. It serves no one well.


You are purposefully misrepresenting how I’m using the word should.

It is perfectly valid to use that word to talk about how things ideally ought to be, without an iota of referencing if they can be that way or not.

 

[MNfootballfan]

Isn't North an A team based on enrollment? That's a pretty small school, plus the reduced lunch factor.

I'd forgotten about the holding the ball story. Surprised that didn't result in a push for a shot clock back then.

I was a 5th grader when the North game took place but I am pretty sure their enrollment was pretty large back then.

 

[disco]

Nonsense. They choose not to

Okay, they COULD in theory. They choose not to because of the cost. Schools don't exist solely to sponsor football teams. (Well, most don't).

That money has to come from somewhere. And to give an analogy to the multiple high schools in a district issue, Both Dakotas have two flagship universities, run by the same board of higher ed/regents, and both have an unusually large number of public four year colleges relative to their population also controlled by those boards. There's a lot more politics involved.

And you could conceivably say that ND doesn't need so many universities, but I think that would require a change to the state constitution - they can't just close campuses.

 

[swede2]

Okay, they COULD in theory. They choose not to because of the cost. Schools don't exist solely to sponsor football teams. (Well, most don't).

That money has to come from somewhere. And to give an analogy to the multiple high schools in a district issue, Both Dakotas have two flagship universities, run by the same board of higher ed/regents, and both have an unusually large number of public four year colleges relative to their population also controlled by those boards. There's a lot more politics involved.

And you could conceivably say that ND doesn't need so many universities, but I think that would require a change to the state constitution - they can't just close campuses.

The cost to transition from FCS to FBS has risen considerably since Liberty moved up. Sure, xDSUs would be competitive in G5 but as a fan, I'll take meaningful games (read national championships) and Saturday tradition over MACtion mid-week games.

 

[AO54]

The big push was enthusiasm (or lack thereof). Attendance at the state tourney was abysmal. The single championship didn't help and the idea was ditched. Did an A team make it to either championship? My recollection is that one year it was North and St Thomas Academy. I don't remember the other.

I remember section attendance being way up in the games I went to. The excitement was very high. Besides this just added one more game to the tournament.

 

[MplsGopher]

Okay, they COULD in theory. They choose not to because of the cost.

The cost to transition from FCS to FBS has risen considerably since Liberty moved up.

Delaware can afford it, but NDSU can't?

Same things were being said during the original move up from DII to DI.

Both Dakotas have two flagship universities, run by the same board of higher ed/regents, and both have an unusually large number of public four year colleges relative to their population also controlled by those boards. There's a lot more politics involved.

Quite true, but also did not stop the xDSU's from moving up to DI from DII the last time around.

UxD's thought they were fall on their face and come crawling back to the NCC. Nope

Sure, xDSUs would be competitive in G5 but as a fan, I'll take meaningful games (read national championships) and Saturday tradition over MACtion mid-week games.

There are barely any meaningful games left in the entire subdivision.

I can see from an SDSU fan's point of view (ie. yours) that this very recent string of (very well deserved) success is a novelty that your program hasn't gotten to experience much. Good for you. If it continues, it will wear off. Ask NDSU fans.

Outside of the Dakotas and Montana, and a handful of other programs around the country that actually care and try ... FCS is a barren wasteland devoid of purpose.

 

[swede2]

Delaware can afford it, but NDSU can't?

Same things were being said during the original move up from DII to DI.


Quite true, but also did not stop the xDSU's from moving up to DI from DII the last time around.

UxD's thought they were fall on their face and come crawling back to the NCC. Nope


There are barely any meaningful games left in the entire subdivision.

I can see from an SDSU fan's point of view (ie. yours) that this very recent string of (very well deserved) success is a novelty that your program hasn't gotten to experience much. Good for you. If it continues, it will wear off. Ask NDSU fans.

Outside of the Dakotas and Montana, and a handful of other programs around the country that actually care and try ... FCS is a barren wasteland devoid of purpose.

So is the Big 10 West. The reality is very few FBS teams play meaningful games. Playing midweek G5 football games? No thanks.

 

[MplsGopher]

So is the Big 10 West. The reality is very few FBS teams play meaningful games.

Ratings of so-called meaningless bowl games, vs the FCS national championship game, tell a different story.

"We're currently meaningless, but I think moving up may still be meaningless, so let's definitely do the for sure meaningless thing and don't try at all"

No thanks

 

[disco]

Delaware can afford it, but NDSU can't?

Same things were being said during the original move up from DII to DI.


Quite true, but also did not stop the xDSU's from moving up to DI from DII the last time around.

UxD's thought they were fall on their face and come crawling back to the NCC. Nope


There are barely any meaningful games left in the entire subdivision.

I can see from an SDSU fan's point of view (ie. yours) that this very recent string of (very well deserved) success is a novelty that your program hasn't gotten to experience much. Good for you. If it continues, it will wear off. Ask NDSU fans.

Outside of the Dakotas and Montana, and a handful of other programs around the country that actually care and try ... FCS is a barren wasteland devoid of purpose.

Delaware has a higher population than either of the Dakotas, and only has two public universities. U of D and Delaware State, which is a fairly small HBCU. A much smaller pie to manage for the board. Kind of like Wyoming, which has a smaller population than either of the Dakotas, but only has one public university. The UxD's and xDSU's don't operate in a vacuum, and I think far more than back in the day, neither state will allow one of the flagships to move up w/o the other, which doubles the cost to 10 million for each state, and that doesn't include all the other increased costs for running a FBS program.

The other issue that's always plagued them is geography. They're isolated being where they are. UND left the Big Sky because of travel costs already.

 

[disco]

Ratings of so-called meaningless bowl games, vs the FCS national championship game, tell a different story.

This is true. All but a really small number of bowl games get better ratings than the FCS title game.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

how did the HS Football thread turn into a debate on college teams moving from FCS to FBS?

anyway, 5 months or so until Fall practice begins for a new HS football season. a few teams in my area have begun posting schedules. in my local football district in SW MN, I think the schedules pretty much stay the same as last year, only they flip-flop home and away. of course, the X factor is availability of officials, so I expect to see a number of games get shifted around to Thursday or Saturday. and some schools will go to a Saturday game for Homecoming or if it's a longer road trip.

personally, I like day games, because my night vision is terrible - especially if the field is not well-lighted. and for doing PA, it helps if the field is well-marked. in a perfect world, everyone would play on turf, but that costs money.

 

[MaxyJR1]

how did the HS Football thread turn into a debate on college teams moving from FCS to FBS?

anyway, 5 months or so until Fall practice begins for a new HS football season. a few teams in my area have begun posting schedules. in my local football district in SW MN, I think the schedules pretty much stay the same as last year, only they flip-flop home and away. of course, the X factor is availability of officials, so I expect to see a number of games get shifted around to Thursday or Saturday. and some schools will go to a Saturday game for Homecoming or if it's a longer road trip.

personally, I like day games, because my night vision is terrible - especially if the field is not well-lighted. and for doing PA, it helps if the field is well-marked. in a perfect world, everyone would play on turf, but that costs money.

It's always interesting to see the level of knowledge kids have in their sport. I remember knowing the whole schedule by heart, knowing the section, etc. etc. I grew up in a smaller community. I think my kid on his 6A team is the only one that understand how the scheduling and playoffs work.

Most schedules for next year are simply a flip on Home and Away until they re-section for the next 2 year cycle.

 

[MplsGopher]

Delaware has a higher population than either of the Dakotas, and only has two public universities. U of D and Delaware State, which is a fairly small HBCU. A much smaller pie to manage for the board. Kind of like Wyoming, which has a smaller population than either of the Dakotas, but only has one public university. The UxD's and xDSU's don't operate in a vacuum, and I think far more than back in the day, neither state will allow one of the flagships to move up w/o the other, which doubles the cost to 10 million for each state, and that doesn't include all the other increased costs for running a FBS program.

It's not the state's cost. I disagree they have authority to disallow a decision that doesn't affect anything else at the school. I agree that they could deny NDSU the ability to raise student fees for athletics to pay for it. But if they can afford the move themselves, with donor and/or corporate partnership help, then there's nothing for the state to say.

The other issue that's always plagued them is geography. They're isolated being where they are. UND left the Big Sky because of travel costs already.

I don't think it makes sense for NDSU to join an FBS conference in all sports. They could be FBS independents like Army and Navy were (Patriot League for most sports), or they could accept a bid to join CUSA in football only.