2023 MN High School Football season

[disco]

Edina’s youth program is absolutely terrible, I don’t know if I’d say the future is bright.

I'm curious what makes you say this. Other than their youth teams rampantly cheat (which is true).

 

[MaxyJR1]

I'm curious what makes you say this. Other than their youth teams rampantly cheat (which is true).

Youth programs are not alike. I tell my kids all the time. Enjoy beating them, but they will likely destroy you in HS. It's the truth with some programs. Some programs balance teams out, some leave kids on same teams with same coaches for years. Some redraft every year. Some focus on developing and not wins. So many factors go into things.

However programs that can keep numbers up, develop skills and have quality HS coaches will find a way to win.

 

[MplsGopher]

What are examples of the rampant cheating?? Genuinely curious

Players too old to be in that age group?
Players who “shouldn’t” be allowed to play for that association?


Do metro youth football associations have strict boundaries and eligibility rules based on them, like little league baseball?


If you recently bought a $1M new construction home in south SLP and you know your kids will be open enrolling to Edina, I guess it makes sense to get them into Edina youth from the git go.

 

[Unregistered User]

I'm curious what makes you say this. Other than their youth teams rampantly cheat (which is true).

Cheat how?

I coached in that system, and I am unaware of your allegations.

 

[fatgopher]

Cheat how?

I coached in that system, and I am unaware of your allegations.

I've coached in the LMAA youth league (think 4th-8th Graders for those unfamiliar). Maxy is right, each youth program runs things a little differently. Some kind of hold onto elementary boundaries as the years pass, others re-work teams via draft every year to balance competitiveness.

One decent predictor to future success is number of teams. Tonka touts the "biggest" youth program in the state and can field 6-7 teams of 17-18 kids in the 9-man 4-6th grade format, while St. Louis Park and Hopkins have one team at those same grade levels. Edina and Maple Grove were usually 4-5 teams per grade, and Wayzata would usually be between those and Tonka.

My interactions with Edina "cheating" were usually coach-specific (not some program-wide conspiracy), not following rotation rules (every six plays both teams do a line change where you either have to leave the field or rotate to a different position group). They'd usually have their best athlete(s) rotate from QB to RB (same position group, not allowed), and plead ignorance to the officials, who are usually retired or close-to-retired varsity officials that had a game the night before and don't want to get involved in rule enforcements that are not football-specific. That being said, other associations had coaches do this too, so not entirely an Edina problem but they tended to be the worst offenders. It's easy to say "don't get worked up about youth sports" but when you've spent 20-30 minutes putting rotations together that follow the letter of the law and see other teams coaching it like a high school game, your kids see it too and that's where rivalries and "hatred" are formed. I'd also be upset to be a 5th or 6th grade parent on a team like that, where your kid is relegated to the offensive line all year if they're not the top 3-4 athletes on the team.

 

[disco]

My interactions with Edina "cheating" were usually coach-specific (not some program-wide conspiracy), not following rotation rules (every six plays both teams do a line change where you either have to leave the field or rotate to a different position group). They'd usually have their best athlete(s) rotate from QB to RB (same position group, not allowed), and plead ignorance to the officials, who are usually retired or close-to-retired varsity officials that had a game the night before and don't want to get involved in rule enforcements that are not football-specific. That being said, other associations had coaches do this too, so not entirely an Edina problem but they tended to be the worst offenders. It's easy to say "don't get worked up about youth sports" but when you've spent 20-30 minutes putting rotations together that follow the letter of the law and see other teams coaching it like a high school game, your kids see it too and that's where rivalries and "hatred" are formed. I'd also be upset to be a 5th or 6th grade parent on a team like that, where your kid is relegated to the offensive line all year if they're not the top 3-4 athletes on the team.

Spot on. You described this perfectly - better than I could have.

I also coach in LMAA, and it's well known among coaches that you have to keep vigilant about this with Edina teams. We've also had to call them out for running illegal defenses (every team has to run the same defensive formation.)

I've honestly never seen this out of any other program, though I'm sure it exists.

 

[MplsGopher]

Oh, I didn’t realize the cheating complaints were of this more petty nature.

But I am genuinely curious, can you sign your kids up for any youth association you want regardless where your home address is?

 

[Some guy]

Oh, I didn’t realize the cheating complaints were of this more petty nature.

But I am genuinely curious, can you sign your kids up for any youth association you want regardless where your home address is?

That would depend on the rules of the youth league.

The rosemount youth association was facing some discussion about booting rosemount from the south suburban youth football league due to some recruiting allegations against rosemount varsity head coach.
The same allegations had the rosemount head coach suspended week 1 this season.

 

[disco]

I've coached in the LMAA youth league (think 4th-8th Graders for those unfamiliar). Maxy is right, each youth program runs things a little differently. Some kind of hold onto elementary boundaries as the years pass, others re-work teams via draft every year to balance competitiveness.

Starting in sixth grade, every team is supposed to do what they call the "equi-draft" which is supposed to balance talent out. It's a confusing process. I know some programs do it earlier. Wayzata groups mainly by grade school for 4th and 5th grade with the private school kids spread out among all the teams. A lot of private schools start tackle in 7th grade, so I expect about 15% of the kids will leave the Wayzata program then.

One decent predictor to future success is number of teams. Tonka touts the "biggest" youth program in the state and can field 6-7 teams of 17-18 kids in the 9-man 4-6th grade format, while St. Louis Park and Hopkins have one team at those same grade levels. Edina and Maple Grove were usually 4-5 teams per grade, and Wayzata would usually be between those and Tonka.

Replying to this part of the post separately.

Tonka absolutely has the largest youth program and their teams are generally good and well-coached. They had a team running the option flawlessly in sixth grade this year. It killed us - we never imagined having to teach kids to defend it or that kids that age could even pull it off.

Wayzata, where I coach, is focused largely on participation/retention and not as much on winning. As such, at least this year, we as coaches agreed they had one too many teams. With the kids spread that thin, a couple injuries, dropouts, kids missing practices for hockey etc. really screws things up. There needs to be a balance there. Obviously you want kids to play as much as possible, but you aren't going to retain kids if they're getting destroyed every week because losing is no fun.

But at the same time, SLP had 22 kids on their one sixth grade team, and they were just terrible so numbers alone don't do it.

 

[MplsGopher]

Since we’re on the subject: is there much intermixing of youth teams playing each other on a larger scale across the metro?

Meaning, for example, would Wayzata/Tonka youth teams ever play against youth teams from the Mpls Parks league? Supposed to have some pretty talented kids in there.

 

[fatgopher]

Oh, I didn’t realize the cheating complaints were of this more petty nature.

But I am genuinely curious, can you sign your kids up for any youth association you want regardless where your home address is?

It is petty but it's even more petty that youth coaches conduct themselves in that fashion when the rules exists to get more kids involved. If one is coaching 4-8th grade ANYTHING and W/L helps feed your ego, one is in it for the wrong reasons. I doubt you'll see a more elaborate scandal on SportsCenter in regards to LMAA football No Connor Stallions that we know of.

I'd say resident rules vary by league and/or association but I'm not sure. I believe many follow a school enrollment model given the regularity of open enrollment. Kids should be playing with their classmates and grow with those kids and the program.

 

[disco]

Oh, I didn’t realize the cheating complaints were of this more petty nature.

But I am genuinely curious, can you sign your kids up for any youth association you want regardless where your home address is?

It's not petty when your team is playing by the rules, and when your kids can clearly see what's going on.

On your second point.
That's kind of a gray area as far as football goes. We've had 4th-5th grade kids playing in the Wayzata program that were from places like Delano, because Delano doesn't start tackle until sixth grade. Hopkins and SLP don't start tackle until sixth grade either, and I think some kids signed up in Minnetonka or Edina for 4th and 5th grade before returning to their home teams. I believe the rule is you have to live or attend school within the district boundaries.

I know in basketball, there is a lot more oversight on this at the youth level. A friend of my son didn't make a travel team, and had to get a special waiver to play travel for another association.

 

[fatgopher]

Since we’re on the subject: is there much intermixing of youth teams playing each other on a larger scale across the metro?

Meaning, for example, would Wayzata/Tonka youth teams ever play against youth teams from the Mpls Parks league? Supposed to have some pretty talented kids in there.

I think you can find some pre-season or post-season scrimmage opportunities, but the LMAA is an 8-game schedule within the member teams. One thing I like is you only play other association teams, so a Wayzata-1 wouldn't play Wayzata-3 for example.

 

[fatgopher]

Starting in sixth grade, every team is supposed to do what they call the "equi-draft" which is supposed to balance talent out. It's a confusing process. I know some programs do it earlier. Wayzata groups mainly by grade school for 4th and 5th grade with the private school kids spread out among all the teams. A lot of private schools start tackle in 7th grade, so I expect about 15% of the kids will leave the Wayzata program then.


Replying to this part of the post separately.

Tonka absolutely has the largest youth program and their teams are generally good and well-coached. They had a team running the option flawlessly in sixth grade this year. It killed us - we never imagined having to teach kids to defend it or that kids that age could even pull it off.

Wayzata, where I coach, is focused largely on participation/retention and not as much on winning. As such, at least this year, we as coaches agreed they had one too many teams. With the kids spread that thin, a couple injuries, dropouts, kids missing practices for hockey etc. really screws things up. There needs to be a balance there. Obviously you want kids to play as much as possible, but you aren't going to retain kids if they're getting destroyed every week because losing is no fun.

But at the same time, SLP had 22 kids on their one sixth grade team, and they were just terrible so numbers alone don't do it.

My involvement is with Minnetonka, and I'd say they are the same in regards to the ethos of participation and retention. Coaches at each grade level were aligned that they'd rather have all teams go 4-4 or 5-3 than one 8-0 team and one 0-8 team mixed in there. You won't get it balanced perfectly in a draft model but it's better than nothing.

SLP is typically not competitive, even with one team a grade level. I will say their teams were usually organized and played really hard and clean, just overwhelmed athletically and physically...from my observations. Hopkin's one team was usually more competitive than SLP but similar factors.

 

[disco]

Since we’re on the subject: is there much intermixing of youth teams playing each other on a larger scale across the metro?

Meaning, for example, would Wayzata/Tonka youth teams ever play against youth teams from the Mpls Parks league? Supposed to have some pretty talented kids in there.

There are a bunch of different youth leagues. LMAA, which @fatgopher and I are referring to, consists of the associations in Edina, Minnetonka, Wayzata, St. Louis Park, Hopkins and Maple Grove. There's a league with Eden Prairie, Chaska, Chanhassen, Shakopee, Orono and others, and I believe a much larger league across the north metro. And I'm sure others I don't know about.

At least for us, playing out of the association isn't allowed. It's specifically in the league rules. And the different leagues have different rules. Some play 9 man, some play 11. Some allow different types of play (motion, blitzes, formations) some don't.

 

[disco]

One thing I like is you only play other association teams, so a Wayzata-1 wouldn't play Wayzata-3 for example.

I agree - I like this model a lot. My son is playing Southwest League basketball this year, and I asked if they run it the same way (they do not).

 

[Gopher 461]

I can't speak to the composition or rules employed in the EP youth system. Others on GopherHole are more familiar than I am on youth programs in the Metro, but what I do know is that Coach Grant's ten or so plays that he runs in high school are probably executed thousands of time by the time the "youth" get to high school. Moreover, I've heard stories from parents who have had their children in the program that relationships are created that will last a lifetime. In addition, the culture that Coach Grant uses, the so called St. Johns Gagliardi model, permeates the program. I think, after watching players come and go for 27 years, that he has the best OL he has ever had, and I wouldn't be surprised if he wins the 6A Championship this year. #57, Sather, is a Captain and a real stud. The kid is going to Princeton. Pretty good wrestler too.

 

[disco]

I can't speak to the composition or rules employed in the EP youth system. Others on GopherHole are more familiar than I am on youth programs in the Metro, but what I do know is that Coach Grant's ten or so plays that he runs in high school are probably executed thousands of time by the time the "youth" get to high school. Moreover, I've heard stories from parents who have had their children in the program that relationships are created that will last a lifetime. In addition, the culture that Coach Grant uses, the so called St. Johns Gagliardi model, permeates the program. I think, after watching players come and go for 27 years, that he has the best OL he has ever had, and I wouldn't be surprised if he wins the 6A Championship this year. #57, Sather, is a Captain and a real stud. The kid is going to Princeton. Pretty good wrestler too.

I've wondered a lot if the youth programs in other districts are handed down a playbook from the high school so the kids start learning the system from the beginning. (note - Wayzata does not do this). Granted, if a coaching staff changes, the scheme could change.

 

[MplsGopher]

The more physically talented your players are, the more vanilla you can get away with in scheme.

Yeah, if you have five OL that will play in college, you can probably just run basic inside & outside zone for every play and score a bunch.

 

[FireDaveLee]

I can't speak to the composition or rules employed in the EP youth system. Others on GopherHole are more familiar than I am on youth programs in the Metro, but what I do know is that Coach Grant's ten or so plays that he runs in high school are probably executed thousands of time by the time the "youth" get to high school. Moreover, I've heard stories from parents who have had their children in the program that relationships are created that will last a lifetime. In addition, the culture that Coach Grant uses, the so called St. Johns Gagliardi model, permeates the program. I think, after watching players come and go for 27 years, that he has the best OL he has ever had, and I wouldn't be surprised if he wins the 6A Championship this year. #57, Sather, is a Captain and a real stud. The kid is going to Princeton. Pretty good wrestler too.

There really isn't a playbook, per se. All teams will use the numbering system so there's familiarity with that, but they aren't running the exact same plays.

I don't know how it is in other associations, but in the SWML (the one EP is in with Chaska/Chan/Prior Lake/New Prague/Orono/Waconia), stripers (kids over the ball carrying weight limit) are allowed to catch passes, provided it's beyond the line of scrimmage, and they can also play QB (can't run it past LOS & pretty much 2 hand touch if someone gets close to them). One thing Grant does advocate is in those 4th-5th-6th grade years of getting those stripers the ball occassionally, because often times some kids are over the weight limit purely because they're bigger & stronger and there's a good chance they will be getting the ball when they get older.

 

[Gopher 461]

There really isn't a playbook, per se. All teams will use the numbering system so there's familiarity with that, but they aren't running the exact same plays.

I don't know how it is in other associations, but in the SWML (the one EP is in with Chaska/Chan/Prior Lake/New Prague/Orono/Waconia), stripers (kids over the ball carrying weight limit) are allowed to catch passes, provided it's beyond the line of scrimmage, and they can also play QB (can't run it past LOS & pretty much 2 hand touch if someone gets close to them). One thing Grant does advocate is in those 4th-5th-6th grade years of getting those stripers the ball occassionally, because often times some kids are over the weight limit purely because they're bigger & stronger and there's a good chance they will be getting the ball when they get older.

I can confirm the weight rule is enforced by the coaches with very few exceptions. Can anyone talk about coaches' camps that support the youth program. I believe Coach Grant organizes his camps by position so he identifies who is good at what. The current Gopher backup (Kramer) threw to the same set of receivers for 4-6years in the build up to high school.

 

[Gold Vision]

Maybe it’s

I'm curious what makes you say this. Other than their youth teams rampantly cheat (which is true).

Maybe it’s limited to the grade level my son plays in and the immediate years surrounding it, but they are by far the least competitive association in the LMAA. My son has played 2nd-8th grade and I can’t recall a single loss to any of their teams through the years. Most games are 20+ point leads by half time.

The athletic talent in Edina is also primarily drawn to hockey. With the overlap of the seasons, particularly starting in peewees at 6th grade, makes it difficult to play those two sports.

 

[disco]

There really isn't a playbook, per se. All teams will use the numbering system so there's familiarity with that, but they aren't running the exact same plays.

I don't know how it is in other associations, but in the SWML (the one EP is in with Chaska/Chan/Prior Lake/New Prague/Orono/Waconia), stripers (kids over the ball carrying weight limit) are allowed to catch passes, provided it's beyond the line of scrimmage, and they can also play QB (can't run it past LOS & pretty much 2 hand touch if someone gets close to them). One thing Grant does advocate is in those 4th-5th-6th grade years of getting those stripers the ball occassionally, because often times some kids are over the weight limit purely because they're bigger & stronger and there's a good chance they will be getting the ball when they get older.

LMAA has stripers/weight limits too. Basically the same rules you stated. Stripers can play QB but not advance the ball, and they can catch passes at end. They can't play any backfied position except QB (meaning you can't have some monster blocking fullback).

There were weight limits 40 years ago when I played grade school football for that matter.

 

[disco]

With the overlap of the seasons, particularly starting in peewees at 6th grade, makes it difficult to play those two sports.

This is a huge problem for us. I've discussed it before in this thread.

 

[FireDaveLee]

LMAA has stripers/weight limits too. Basically the same rules you stated. Stripers can play QB but not advance the ball, and they can catch passes at end. They can't play any backfied position except QB (meaning you can't have some monster blocking fullback).

There were weight limits 40 years ago when I played grade school football for that matter.

I figured there were weight limits, but didn't know if they could catch passes & play QB like SWML.

Same rule exists in SWML with backfield; can't have a Randall McDaniel type lead blocking......

 

[FireDaveLee]

I can confirm the weight rule is enforced by the coaches with very few exceptions. Can anyone talk about coaches' camps that support the youth program. I believe Coach Grant organizes his camps by position so he identifies who is good at what. The current Gopher backup (Kramer) threw to the same set of receivers for 4-6years in the build up to high school.

They have different position camps, but there's really no restriction regarding who can or can't go to it; it's almost encouraged. Never know when the pudgy 7th grade kid might turn into some creature that can play TE.

 

[MNfootballfan]

My Prep Bowl Predictions based off of absolutely nothing other than my gut feeling:
9-Man: Kingsland over Nevis
1A: Mahnomen/Waubun over Minneota
2A: JCC over EV-W
3A: Stewartville over Annandale
4A: Hutchinson over Byron
5A: Chanhassen over Alexandria
6A: EP over Lakeville South

 

[Gopher 461]

They have different position camps, but there's really no restriction regarding who can or can't go to it; it's almost encouraged. Never know when the pudgy 7th grade kid might turn into some creature that can play TE.

Coach Grant is unusually good at finding "pudgy" kids early (before 7th grade) and turn them into TE's , OT's, OG's and Centers! This year's OL may or may not be those pudgy kids but he has found some very large student athletes. I call them the roadgraders.

 

[PMWinSTP]

My Prep Bowl Predictions based off of absolutely nothing other than my gut feeling:
9-Man: Kingsland over Nevis
1A: Mahnomen/Waubun over Minneota
2A: JCC over EV-W
3A: Stewartville over Annandale
4A: Hutchinson over Byron
5A: Chanhassen over Alexandria
6A: EP over Lakeville South

I work with someone whose grandson is the star RB on Kingsland. Kid has unreal numbers. Not a burner but great instincts. Wish Fleck and Co had checked him out. Going to Winona State.

 

[prespsguy]

Coach Grant is unusually good at finding "pudgy" kids early (before 7th grade) and turn them into TE's , OT's, OG's and Centers! This year's OL may or may not be those pudgy kids but he has found some very large student athletes. I call them the roadgraders.

Coach Grant has rubbed many people the wrong way and frankly, he's earned quite a bit of that, but the truth remains, he is an incredible football coach. Additionally, the kids who play for him for the most part love being a part of his program. People often reach for "excuses' for why Eden Prairie has been so successful but the truth remains, Coach Grant is among the best coaches this state has ever seen and runs an incredible program that has continuity from 3rd grade to varsity.