2023 MN High School Football season

[MaxyJR1]

Windom is AA by enrollment, but the district committee is allowing Windom to play a 1A schedule. the program has been really struggling with low numbers and lack of success, so the committee is letting Windom see if it can win a few games and convince more kids to go out for football.

FWIW - Windom's victory over Wabasso last Friday was Windom's first win on its home field since 2019 - and the first time Windom has won back-to-back games since 2010.

the same thing was done with St. James last year. It's seen as preferrable to having programs fold or be forced to consolidate.

This has to be done. If football is going to stick around in many communities outstate, there has to be flexibility. In the end these teams aren't going to compete for a state championship they are just trying to get enough kids to keep having a team. However, I think more schools should opt for 9-player in outstate. Probably too much of a stigma, but I think it would actually grow the sport by eliminating your two worst players on each side of the ball and making for a more enjoyable experience for all.

There have been teams in the past that played 9-Person during the season and 11-Person in the playoffs.

If sections are set and everyone makes the playoffs, who cares who they play during the regular season?

 

[swede2]

Windom is AA by enrollment, but the district committee is allowing Windom to play a 1A schedule. the program has been really struggling with low numbers and lack of success, so the committee is letting Windom see if it can win a few games and convince more kids to go out for football.

FWIW - Windom's victory over Wabasso last Friday was Windom's first win on its home field since 2019 - and the first time Windom has won back-to-back games since 2010.

the same thing was done with St. James last year. It's seen as preferrable to having programs fold or be forced to consolidate.

And Wabasso has 9 man enrollment but plays up.

Is St James still playing 1A? It looks to me they are playing many of the same opponents as Windom.

 

[swede2]

This has to be done. If football is going to stick around in many communities outstate, there has to be flexibility. In the end these teams aren't going to compete for a state championship they are just trying to get enough kids to keep having a team. However, I think more schools should opt for 9-player in outstate. Probably too much of a stigma, but I think it would actually grow the sport by eliminating your two worst players on each side of the ball and making for a more enjoyable experience for all.

There have been teams in the past that played 9-Person during the season and 11-Person in the playoffs.

If sections are set and everyone makes the playoffs, who cares who they play during the regular season?

Its a tough pill to swallow for formerly proud programs to "drop" to 9 man. New Ulm Cathedral, who had been very successful in the not too distant past, resisted but finally moved to 9 man this year. Sleepy Eye St. Mary's played 9 man for a few years before cooping with public and now plays 1A. Wabasso qualifies for 9 man but continues in 1A although they've struggled for a few years (but like Cathedral have had recent success) but yhey may beed to move to 9 man. The demographics in a lot of these small outstate schools have stabilized after years of declines but a smaller student body requires a very high percentage of participation to have onfield success. Even in these small schools though, there are more opportunities for participation. Coops with other schools for cross country and soccer for instance. Towns like Windom and St James have high minority populations with kids less prone to football participation. 9 man will be a more palatible option as more schools face the reality of smaller enrollment and participation. For years,the 9 man schools were few and far between. Now, more traditional rivsls are paying 9 man making it a more acceptable choice.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Texas has 6 -player and some states play 8 -person. There are ways to create opportunities without throwing in the towel at many of these schools.

 

[swede2]

Texas has 6 -player and some states play 8 -person. There are ways to create opportunities without throwing in the towel at many of these schools.

I think ND has a small class of schools playing something less than 9 man.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

this is just me thinking off the top of my head, but:

what if the state had two divisions of 9-man (or 9-player if you prefer):

a 'small-school division' for programs with enrollment of 150 or fewer - the 'traditional' 9-player limit, and

a 'large-school division' for programs with more than 150 who "opt down" to go 9-player.

that would give struggling programs an option to continue playing football without being forced to co-op. in my experience, one of the biggest issues for struggling programs is a lack of depth on the O-line and D-line, forcing players to go both ways, and by the 4th qtr they are beat up and gassed.

9-player directly addresses that issue by eliminating two positions on the O-Line.

just a thought (but it's probably too far "out of the box" for the MSHSL to ever consider.......)

 

[short ornery norwegian]

a couple of scores of note from Thursday:

9-player: #1 Mountain Iron Buhl defeated #3 Cherry 28-6

#8 in 2A Norwood-Young America defeated #7 in 1A Mayer Lutheran 12-6.

and now a quick diversion: I was at the State Playoffs at the Metrodome in (I think) 2002. Norwood-Young America was playing. on their helmets were the letters C-R. I was confused. Why would Norwood-Young America have "C-R" on their helmets? Finally I had to find a NYA fan and ask - discovering that the school nickname is the Central Raiders - or C-R for short.

for some reason I have always found that amusing.

 

[MaxyJR1]

a couple of scores of note from Thursday:

9-player: #1 Mountain Iron Buhl defeated #3 Cherry 28-6

#8 in 2A Norwood-Young America defeated #7 in 1A Mayer Lutheran 12-6.

and now a quick diversion: I was at the State Playoffs at the Metrodome in (I think) 2002. Norwood-Young America was playing. on their helmets were the letters C-R. I was confused. Why would Norwood-Young America have "C-R" on their helmets? Finally I had to find a NYA fan and ask - discovering that the school nickname is the Central Raiders - or C-R for short.

for some reason I have always found that amusing.

I too was always confused when people would call them Central or the Central Raiders. I think I even played in a youth tournament in the 90's at the Central Gym.

 

[Some guy]

If sections are set and everyone makes the playoffs, who cares who they play during the regular season?

whoever came up with the concept of districts
Because football was better in Minnesota for 80-90% of teams before the state took over scheduling.

There were a small percentage of teams who were much worse off. But I guess we had to make it worse for everyone to make it better for a few

 

[MaxyJR1]

whoever came up with the concept of districts
Because football was better in Minnesota for 80-90% of teams before the state took over scheduling.

There were a small percentage of teams who were much worse off. But I guess we had to make it worse for everyone to make it better for a few

Scheduling should be, play everyone in your section and then if you need more games, from your district. It doesn't have to be hard. Why some teams have played 7 games and haven't seen a single section opponent is dumb.

 

[MplsGopher]

@short ornery norwegian do you know if that Gopher basketball recruit plays for Cherry?

 

[MplsGopher]

Easy way to fix not playing teams in your section: abolish them altogether.

You ensure geographic representation but you just have a state bracket.

“Everyone makes it” and section brackets are BS that need to be done away with

 

[State of Football]

Nope. Hopkins Burnsville

Just because they have a few hundred more kids of immigrant working parents, and have absolutely zero interest and/or ability in American Football, don’t mean jack S

Exactly where metrics on number of kids out for football at the high school and relative health of youth feeder programs could help dictate — correctly — that those two should relegate down and we should promote programs like Chan and Rogers.

What about Roseville? So have them play Andover, Rogers, Armstrong and Mahtomedi, Mankato West? That’s not Relegation. And you believe Rogers and Chan have been dominant?

 

[State of Football]

this is just me thinking off the top of my head, but:

what if the state had two divisions of 9-man (or 9-player if you prefer):

a 'small-school division' for programs with enrollment of 150 or fewer - the 'traditional' 9-player limit, and

a 'large-school division' for programs with more than 150 who "opt down" to go 9-player.

that would give struggling programs an option to continue playing football without being forced to co-op. in my experience, one of the biggest issues for struggling programs is a lack of depth on the O-line and D-line, forcing players to go both ways, and by the 4th qtr they are beat up and gassed.

9-player directly addresses that issue by eliminating two positions on the O-Line.

just a thought (but it's probably too far "out of the box" for the MSHSL to ever consider.......)

This has been considered. 9 Player has proposed but was 50/ 50 by those schools.

 

[MplsGopher]

Roseville looks a lot like Armstrong and Jefferson. Doesn’t look at all like Andover, Mahtomedi, or Mankato West.

That’s the entire point of what I’m saying.

If you’re even going to bother to hand out more than one State Champion trophy, then you should get it right (or at least not so wrong) on how you group the schools.

 

[disco]

I too was always confused when people would call them Central or the Central Raiders. I think I even played in a youth tournament in the 90's at the Central Gym.

That's like when you read through the MSHSL enrollment number PDF. There's a John F. Kennedy high school. It's not Bloomington Kennedy. It's Fergus Falls (I think). Took me a while to figure that out.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

@short ornery norwegian do you know if that Gopher basketball recruit plays for Cherry?

I believe so but I couldn't swear to it in court.

 

[disco]

Texas has 6 -player and some states play 8 -person. There are ways to create opportunities without throwing in the towel at many of these schools.

Six man football isn't that uncommon in rural areas, especially out west.

As of the 2017–2018 ...the state of Texas has 262 six-man football teams).[10]

...
The state of Florida has 32 teams playing six-man football in the Florida Christian Association of Private and Parochial Schools. FCAPPS comprises small Christian or private schools and at least one home-school cooperative. Teams in the conference are as far south as the Florida Keys to as far north as Jacksonville.

The state of Alabama has eight teams playing as part of the Christian Football Association (www.cfafootball.org) which is a sister organization to the Alabama Christian Education Athletic Association (ACEAA).

The state of Colorado has 23 teams currently playing six-man football, with the majority of teams being from small towns located in eastern Colorado.

As of 2013, Idaho has two teams that play six-man football; they play against makeshift junior varsity teams or teams in Montana. Idaho has not sanctioned six-man football, but approved it for a pilot program. It was made particularly for schools that were small and too far removed geographically to have a reasonable co-operative program with a neighboring school. Idaho did play six-man football in the 1940s.

The sport is also played by high schools in Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oregon, and Wyoming, and in parts of Canada.

8 man is more common nationwide than is 9 man. I think only three states (Minnesota included) have 9 man football, which seems really odd, because it's the same game minus two linemen as opposed to having an even number of players.

Also, this is cool.

Six-man American football scoring is the same as for eleven men, except on the point after touchdown (PAT) attempt and the field goal. A point-after kick is worth two points, while a conversion made by running or passing the ball is worth one point. A field goal is worth four points instead of three. These rule changes were made because of the difficulty of successfully getting a kick off with so few blockers on the line compared to the number of defenders.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Roseville looks a lot like Armstrong and Jefferson. Doesn’t look at all like Andover, Mahtomedi, or Mankato West.

That’s the entire point of what I’m saying.

If you’re even going to bother to hand out more than one State Champion trophy, then you should get it right (or at least not so wrong) on how you group the schools.

Enrollementwise Andover is the #2 largest 5A school and Mahtomedi and Mankato West in the 40's. Mankato East is larger than West. I would push 16 more schools up to the top class.

Schools like Andover, Spring Lake Park, Rogers are the teams that should be moving.

In the end the MSHSL is about participation and not championships. Unless you take affluency and demographics into account you can't fix the perceived problem.

 

[MaxyJR1]

That's like when you read through the MSHSL enrollment number PDF. There's a John F. Kennedy high school. It's not Bloomington Kennedy. It's Fergus Falls (I think). Took me a while to figure that out.

North High is actually North St. Paul and not Minneapolis North.

 

[MplsGopher]

Saying something like “Enrollmentwise …” is the entire issue and problem.

100 kids in Andover look nothing like 100 kids in Roseville.

Not at all apples to apples

 

[Breakin' The Plane]

I too was always confused when people would call them Central or the Central Raiders. I think I even played in a youth tournament in the 90's at the Central Gym.

I'm not 100% on all of this, but they were once the Norwood-Young America Indians. From what I can recall, they did a complete rebranding that including switching the name of the school as well when they dropped Indians for Raiders.

 

[Jack jones]

Does anyone know who has the longest losing streak in MN? Before or after realignment?

 

[Breakin' The Plane]

Its a tough pill to swallow for formerly proud programs to "drop" to 9 man. New Ulm Cathedral, who had been very successful in the not too distant past, resisted but finally moved to 9 man this year. Sleepy Eye St. Mary's played 9 man for a few years before cooping with public and now plays 1A. Wabasso qualifies for 9 man but continues in 1A although they've struggled for a few years (but like Cathedral have had recent success) but yhey may beed to move to 9 man. The demographics in a lot of these small outstate schools have stabilized after years of declines but a smaller student body requires a very high percentage of participation to have onfield success. Even in these small schools though, there are more opportunities for participation. Coops with other schools for cross country and soccer for instance. Towns like Windom and St James have high minority populations with kids less prone to football participation. 9 man will be a more palatible option as more schools face the reality of smaller enrollment and participation. For years,the 9 man schools were few and far between. Now, more traditional rivsls are paying 9 man making it a more acceptable choice.

Funny how things can change. By my senior year, the number of 9-man teams in our area had dwindled to almost none, so we were offered the choice to move up a class (I think it was still called "C" at the time), or play a 9-man schedule with whoever we could find from around the state. We opted to move up a class and joined the conference with St. Mary's and Cathedral (Minnesota Valley, I think).

 

[MaxyJR1]

Does anyone know who has the longest losing streak in MN? Before or after realignment?

Nicollet had a long long 9-man losing streak back in the 1990's

 

[disco]

Does anyone know who has the longest losing streak in MN? Before or after realignment?

Forest Lake had a really long one about 5-10 years ago. Hopkins is in the middle of one now.
Kimball had a 42 game losing streak back in 2017. At the time, it was second longest in the country. Red Wing had a 41 game streak around the same time. Caledonia had a 71 game winning streak.

 

[swede2]

Funny how things can change. By my senior year, the number of 9-man teams in our area had dwindled to almost none, so we were offered the choice to move up a class (I think it was still called "C" at the time), or play a 9-man schedule with whoever we could find from around the state. We opted to move up a class and joined the conference with St. Mary's and Cathedral (Minnesota Valley, I think).

Tomahawk maybe?

 

[swede2]

I too was always confused when people would call them Central or the Central Raiders. I think I even played in a youth tournament in the 90's at the Central Gym.

I wasn't aware of this until last year and was in a semi-panic when on the way to a game. "Where the hell is Central" I thought?

 

[swede2]

this is just me thinking off the top of my head, but:

what if the state had two divisions of 9-man (or 9-player if you prefer):

a 'small-school division' for programs with enrollment of 150 or fewer - the 'traditional' 9-player limit, and

a 'large-school division' for programs with more than 150 who "opt down" to go 9-player.

that would give struggling programs an option to continue playing football without being forced to co-op. in my experience, one of the biggest issues for struggling programs is a lack of depth on the O-line and D-line, forcing players to go both ways, and by the 4th qtr they are beat up and gassed.

9-player directly addresses that issue by eliminating two positions on the O-Line.

just a thought (but it's probably too far "out of the box" for the MSHSL to ever consider.......)

SD has two nine man classes but I don't know the criteria. Even still, there's a lot of cooping.

Cooping often seems to have an immediate benefit. Everyone goes out from each partner who would have gone out had the partners remained independent. But as the years go on, kids start to drop out from each partner for various reasons ("coach only plays the x players cause he teaches at x" or " the drive is too far" or the guys from x are dicks" sort of things) and in the end, the total number of participants is reduced.

 

[swede2]

Funny how things can change. By my senior year, the number of 9-man teams in our area had dwindled to almost none, so we were offered the choice to move up a class (I think it was still called "C" at the time), or play a 9-man schedule with whoever we could find from around the state. We opted to move up a class and joined the conference with St. Mary's and Cathedral (Minnesota Valley, I think).

When I played, my team was class C and we played in a mixed C/B conference ( although a B team seemed to drop to C each year). The nearest 9 man teams were out on the fringes, Hills Beaver Creek, Chokio Alberta, etc. Now, the schools from my old conference, mine included, are largely 9 man, even after cooping.