12, 14 or 16, which would you like to see?

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gophmeister

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Over the weekend the Big Ten expansion talk re-heated itself and the sense I got from the three articles I read is we're headed toward adding more than one new member. I opposed the addition of Penn St on grounds of tradition and scheduling, and didn't want Notre Dame either. Now I'm more inclined toward adding more teams. The question of the day is how many?

Scenario 12.

Notre Dame finally relents. Money!

Scenario 14

Go east young man! We eviserate the Big East and add Pitt, Syracuse and Rutgers.

Scenario 16

Mega Conference! Scenario 12 + Scenario 14 + Missouri = 16. I think geography is important and the Big Ten will become the conference of the East Coast and Midwest.

Obviously, Notre Dame is the key to how any of this plays out. If they decide to join the Big Ten we could hold at 12 or keep going. If they turn us down, I think we end up with 14, since no single team can bring in the money like ND. A combination of Rutgers and Syracuse might be enough to sneak the BTN on every NYC cable box and Pitt gets in thanks to JoePa. If it comes to pass, Notre Dame will have a lot of power in the new conference and I have a feeling that a large conference is more appealing to them than small one. The Irish may fear having a schedule that includes 8 of the current big ten teams plus USC every year. I don't think they want to get in a a situation where 75% of their games are going to be against tough opponents with whom they have heated rivalries. Therefore 16 only becomes a reality if the Irish want it in order to have a more diverse football schedule. Sixteen is probably just be an empty threat, but stranger things have happened. Anyway, nothing earthshakering here, and by no means is this a prediction. I am sure I have overlooked a bunch of variables.
 

12=smart

14=threatens the intimacy of the Big Ten

16=total disaster


I am really uncomfortable with the idea of the Big Ten adding more than one team. Currently, the league has an intimate feel, each squad plays all but two Big Ten teams every year. What if there are 14 teams? That means there could conceivably be a year where the Gophers don't play Penn State, Michigan, Ohio State, Northwestern, or Purdue (assuming the 2 core rivalries are still protected)?

Any more than one additional team is a terrible idea.
 

AhliBobwa said:
12=smart

14=threatens the intimacy of the Big Ten

16=total disaster


I am really uncomfortable with the idea of the Big Ten adding more than one team. Currently, the league has an intimate feel, each squad plays all but two Big Ten teams every year. What if there are 14 teams? That means there could conceivably be a year where the Gophers don't play Penn State, Michigan, Ohio State, Northwestern, or Purdue (assuming the 2 core rivalries are still protected)?

+1

Any more than one additional team is a terrible idea.
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*1
 

I agree with not expanding beyond 12. Not only for the intimacy factor mentioned in previous post, but scheduling becomes a nightmare beyond 12. If you go to 14, you would have 6 intra-division football game, which would leave only 2 (or 3 if they go to 9 conference games which I don't think they'll do) games with the opposite division. We won't see some teams for 3 or 4 years. It doesn't work for me.

For basketball, if you go to 14, you would have 12 intra-division (home and home) and 4 to 6 against the opposing division (again, unless they go to 19 conference games, which is more possible, I think, than 9 football conference games).

Anyway, 12 works perfectly for scheduling and would love to see ND as first choice and Mizzou as 2nd choice.

As an aside, 15 is an interesting number. You could split into 3 divisions of 5. For football, play each of your division rivals each year plus all 5 from one of the other divisions. Each year you alternate which of the 2 opposite divisions you play. This, though, would again require 9 conference games per year. You would also make it a 2 weekend B10 football tournament by adding a wild-card and and the 3 division winners. Lot's of games, I know.

For basketball, you would play 8 intra-division games and 1 against each of the other 10 teams. # 1 seed gets bye in B10 BB tourney.

Will never happen, and I would prefer B10 didn't go here, but thought I would throw it out there for fun.

Thanks,
 

Question. Notre Dame gets paid $9m/year from NBC. Each big ten school receives $12m and they expect that figure to be closer to $22m in a few years. There is no question adding Notre Dame would increase revenue across the board, but we don't need Notre Dame like they we used to. The tables have turned, they need us now.

I personally would like add Missouri, but I see us trying to move towards the east coast marketing opportunity. It will be interesting to see how it plays out and it Syracuse was headed to our conference, how that would affect basketball.
 


TNGophfan said:
As an aside, 15 is an interesting number. You could split into 3 divisions of 5. For football, play each of your division rivals each year plus all 5 from one of the other divisions. Each year you alternate which of the 2 opposite divisions you play. This, though, would again require 9 conference games per year. You would also make it a 2 weekend B10 football tournament by adding a wild-card and and the 3 division winners. Lot's of games, I know.

QUOTE]

I think you just hit it on the head. I think this is the best idea yet.
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I would like to see Notre Dame and nothing else to make a 12 team Big 10. If Notre Dame still says no....

I think you stay at 11 or go to 14. Pitt, Syracuse or Rutgers by themselves bring nothing to the mix. You must bring in three. I know Pitt would make a nice in confrence rivalry for Penn State, but I don't see Pitt fitting in well with the Big 10 academically. I think if you go to 14 teams, it should be Rutgers, Syracuse and Mizzou.

Still, ND should be the first offer again.
 

Notre Dame.....

Sign them up!

Notre would be the best choice, however, I would want them to want the Big Ten as bad.

Wish they would get off their high horse and start showing some interest right now!

The longer they wait will backfire on them. Trust me.

Go Gophers!!!!!!!!!!1:clap:
 

Notre Dame...

is not worth the drama and the overall pain in the ass they will bring. Unless ND can get the BTN on every cable box in America at $2.95 a month(or what ever it is) on basic cable keep them away.

For my money Pitt is the way to go. Football-Check, Basketball-Check, Academics-Check, Location-half check(in the B10 footprint both a positive and a negative). Besides the fact that they are in Pittsburgh(which wouldn't add subscribers to the BTN) what don't they have?

Oh and stay away from 14 & 16. Nothing good could come of that.
 



mnboiler said:
For my money Pitt is the way to go. Football-Check, Basketball-Check, Academics-Check, Location-half check(in the B10 footprint both a positive and a negative). Besides the fact that they are in Pittsburgh(which wouldn't add subscribers to the BTN) what don't they have?
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The Big Ten is NOT expanding unless it increases TV revenue. If a single team is added to the Big Ten it will not be Pitt.
 

Pitt also plays in an off campus NFL Stadium.

Been there done that, no thanks.
 

Anything beyond 12 and you start to lose your identity. Would it be called the The "Big 10 Little East" Conference if it goes to 14 or 16.
 

Couple points here before I make my suggestions:

1) The NCAA has reopened the '12-teams needed for a playoff' requirement. Should they overturn it, the Big Ten will stay at 11.

2) The Big Ten Commissioner has repeatedly stated he wants the ability to keep a round robin as much as possible, thus expanding is not preferred.

Okay, that said the obvious choice is Notre Dame. I'm not sure that will happen with 12 teams, but with 14 or 16 -- it looks much more likely.

Pitt seems a natural fit as well, with Syracuse and/or Rutgers to round out 14 (depending on ND).

16 becomes quite a mess. The market seems to point to eastern schools, so my thought is -- if ND joins, as well as Pitt, Syr, and Rut, that means one western school could sneak in. There are solid arguments for both Neb and Mizz. If ND doesn't join, I'd think both would be added.
 



There is a faction out there that believes there will be 4 mega-conferences, the SEC, B10, PAC10 and ??? There are those who also believe the SEC is making an attempt to force a playoff system.

If you get four mega conferences with 14 teams each, there is no way a simple conference champion from one game goes to the BCS, it would set up for a 12 team playoff with the conference champions getting a bye week.

SEC is working on teams like Texas and such. If Missou goes B10 and Utah and Boise St go PAC10, than things fall in place for this to work.

It is, however, just a theory.
 

AhliBobwa said:
The Big Ten is NOT expanding unless it increases TV revenue. If a single team is added to the Big Ten it will not be Pitt.
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That is going to be hard to increase the payout to each school by expanding. The best info I could find said last year each school got about $22 million from the Big Ten and about $8 million came from the BTN. That means for it to make economical sense the B10 is going to have to raise an extra $22 million per year. Here are some quick number from the largest potenial sources of extra income.

1. B10 Football title game:
Broadcasting Rights: I really don't have an idea 2-3 million per year.
Ticket Revenue: Assuming the game is played at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indy which holds 63000 at $100 per ticket. That is 6.3 million.
Ads, sponsorships, etc: Another guess but $1 Million.
So far we are at about $10 Million

2. Mens Basketball Tourny:
Additional Ticket Sales: Assuming Pitt which is a decent basketball school I would go with an extra 1000 all season passes at $270 a pop. That adds roughly 250K
Ads, sponsorships, etc: 250K

3. Other B10 Championships: I would guess it would add about 250K TOTAL.

So far we are about 11 Million per year. That means we have another 11 to go. That money is going to have to come mainly from the BTN.

I do not know the precise figure of what the BTN get per household but the best number I could find was about $1.00 per household. Which would mean the school would have to bring in an extra 11 million households. Figuring 4.5 people per household that mean the home geographic are will needs roughly 50 million people. Currently the 8 states that have B10 teams have roughly 67 million people. So basically I don't see how any team is going to bring in an extra 11 million households.
 


This is probably a super dumb question, but why can't we -1. So we can actually be the BIG 10 not 11 or 12.. take out Northwestern. they are pretty bad at all sports. i think.....
 

If we could add ND, Nebraska, Mizzou, and 2 desireable Big East teams, I'd be on board with the move to 16. Otherwise, let's keep things sane and be the first to 14.

I don't think there is 1 school out there (besides ND, and possibly Nebraska or Mizzou?) who is good enough to justify a small expansion up to 12.
 


More than 12 would be unstable and a disaster for teams like the Gophers. The Big Ten should kick out Penn State and build a sister conference in the east (like the NFL with two conferences) that would include Notre Dame. There could be interplay between the two leagues but the Big Ten would be its traditional self, with NO playoff for its championship. As a result ties for the conference title would be possible. But the two champions could play each other for some kind of super two-conference championship, but it would not be the "Big Ten" championship.
 

Great Plains Gopher said:
More than 12 would be unstable and a disaster for teams like the Gophers. The Big Ten should kick out Penn State and build a sister conference in the east (like the NFL with two conferences) that would include Notre Dame. There could be interplay between the two leagues but the Big Ten would be its traditional self, with NO playoff for its championship. As a result ties for the conference title would be possible. But the two champions could play each other for some kind of super two-conference championship, but it would not be the "Big Ten" championship.
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Interesting idea.
 

Lots of uninformed posts in this thread. Notre Dame will not join if we only add one. They would only join if we took a couple other Big East teams, and that league was threatened. There is a VERY good chance we expand beyond 12. Why would it bother you if the conference is still called the Big 10? Why would more than 12 be a disaster for the gophers or unstable? MN boiler, the extra tv revenue will come from advertising, which is more than half of the BTN revenue currently. And extra teams means more live events, which also means more ad $$$s.
 

Section2 said:
Lots of uninformed posts in this thread. Notre Dame will not join if we only add one. They would only join if we took a couple other Big East teams, and that league was threatened. There is a VERY good chance we expand beyond 12. Why would it bother you if the conference is still called the Big 10? Why would more than 12 be a disaster for the gophers or unstable? MN boiler, the extra tv revenue will come from advertising, which is more than half of the BTN revenue currently. And extra teams means more live events, which also means more ad $$$s.
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I think there is a strong emotional response regarding expansion. People don't like change. This is change to something people have strong ties to. Their perceptions are not based on any empirical data, but just a knee jerk reaction to change.

I remember being horrified by the addition of Penn St to the Big Ten. I thought it would ruin the conference for many of the same reasons I hear now. In fact, it improved the conferences football fortune, because everyone didn't want to get beat up on by big, bad Penn St so they started investing more in their programs. If they get the right team or teams this could be very good for the health of the conference and the gophers.
 

Great Plains Gopher said:
More than 12 would be unstable and a disaster for teams like the Gophers. The Big Ten should kick out Penn State and build a sister conference in the east (like the NFL with two conferences) that would include Notre Dame. There could be interplay between the two leagues but the Big Ten would be its traditional self, with NO playoff for its championship. As a result ties for the conference title would be possible. But the two champions could play each other for some kind of super two-conference championship, but it would not be the "Big Ten" championship.
Click to expand...

What you're describing is turning the Big Ten Conference into the Big Ten Division of a larger conference.
 

12 = crap
14 = idiotic
16 = "Bring me the head of Jim Delaney on a stick"
 

Section2 said:
Lots of uninformed posts in this thread. Notre Dame will not join if we only add one. They would only join if we took a couple other Big East teams, and that league was threatened.
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I'm not sure I totally agree about how the incentives shake out with the scenario above. What if we said we're taking three Big East teams or you by yourself. They'd be left holding the bag if they declined.

Same would go for Texas but they have more outs. We could say we're taking Missouri, Colorado and Nebraska, or you come by yourself. In thier case however they could go east (SEC) or west (Pac-10).
 

How it will end is this.

The Big East conference will tell Notre Dame that they either have to join in football or be out in all the other sports. Notre Dame will then drop out of the Big East and join the Big Ten.

It solves every problem.
The Big East loses Notre Dame affiliation, but preserves itself.
The Big Ten gets Notre Dame and expansion.
Notre Dame is in a conference, though some think it is more profitable to be independent in football, if they are not in the Big East in basketball and other sports they will be forced to join a conference.

The trick is if the Big East has the onions to give ND and ultimatum.
 

Rosemountian said:
How it will end is this.

The Big East conference will tell Notre Dame that they either have to join in football or be out in all the other sports. Notre Dame will then drop out of the Big East and join the Big Ten.

It solves every problem.
The Big East loses Notre Dame affiliation, but preserves itself.
The Big Ten gets Notre Dame and expansion.
Notre Dame is in a conference, though some think it is more profitable to be independent in football, if they are not in the Big East in basketball and other sports they will be forced to join a conference.

The trick is if the Big East has the onions to give ND and ultimatum.
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Why would the Big East give ND an ultimatum? This is simply wishful thinking on your part and not based in any kind of reality. Big East invited ND to join their conference in basketball (along with several other schools) knowing that ND did not want to join in football. ND wants to remain independent in football. Period.
 

badgergopher said:
I'm not sure I totally agree about how the incentives shake out with the scenario above. What if we said we're taking three Big East teams or you by yourself. They'd be left holding the bag if they declined.

Same would go for Texas but they have more outs. We could say we're taking Missouri, Colorado and Nebraska, or you come by yourself. In thier case however they could go east (SEC) or west (Pac-10).
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You aren't thinking this out. ND badly wants to remain independent. The ONLY way they will reconsider is if college football moves to superconferences. That's only important because it means a playoff is likely, and independents will be left out of the national title picture. ND knows that we would never follow through on that threat and ask 3 Big East teams to join, destroying the Big East, and then telling ND to go f themselves, they had their chance. It's just not going to happen. The Big 10 wants ND. Everyone knows this. What I outlined is the only way it's happening.
 

i just dont want a scenario where texas goes to the sec i think that would be a disaster, that would basically make it a north south thing which would not be good at all in my opinion
 

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