Is Tubby Smith a Hall of Fame coach?

[golfing18now]

If you consider Elite Eight (as a 6 seed) to be a national title contender, sure. I think most wouldn't.

What would be your definition of a national title contender? They were one shot away from going to the final four that year. Is that less impressive because they were a sixth seed?

 

[bemidjigopher]

Fair enough for Dutcher, but you said that "they both proved you can put together a national title contender at Minnesota". Haskins never put together a national title contender.

1997! There was no cheating in the recruitment of those players, the cheating was on an academic level when they were already enrolled, that team happened, whether or not the NCAA recognizes them. You can say that they cheated and their banter doesn't deserve to hang, but the fact that Clem put that roster together proves he could put a title contender together. Hopefully when Pitino does it the kids will write their papers and take their own exams.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

If you consider Elite Eight (as a 6 seed) to be a national title contender, sure. I think most wouldn't.

I absolutely consider 3 wins away from a national championship to be a contender. Only seven other teams got as close that year as we did, and I would say that in a field with as many teams as college basketball, being one of the eight teams closest to winning a title definitely makes you a contender.

 

[dpodoll68]

What would be your definition of a national title contender? They were one shot away from going to the final four that year. Is that less impressive because they were a sixth seed?

A team in the top 10ish (1 or 2 seed), or one that makes it to the Final Four. Being a 6 seed means they were somewhere in the top 20-25 teams, but not in the top 10. They were an overachieving team three wins away from a national title. I don't consider that contending. A team expected to contend but who gets upset early (a 1 or 2 seed) would also be considered a national title contender by most by virtue of having the talent and resumé to attain that status in the first place.

 

[dpodoll68]

1997! There was no cheating in the recruitment of those players, the cheating was on an academic level when they were already enrolled, that team happened, whether or not the NCAA recognizes them. You can say that they cheated and their banter doesn't deserve to hang, but the fact that Clem put that roster together proves he could put a title contender together. Hopefully when Pitino does it the kids will write their papers and take their own exams.

No, it proves that they could cheat their way toward contending for a national title. How clean their recruitment may or may not have been is immaterial. They may or may not have achieved a similar result without cheating, but we'll never know, so we can't give them credit for it. We don't know whether those players were good enough to be national title contenders cleanly because they were never given that opportunity.

 

[Bad Gopher]

A team in the top 10ish (1 or 2 seed), or one that makes it to the Final Four. Being a 6 seed means they were somewhere in the top 20-25 teams, but not in the top 10. They were an overachieving team three wins away from a national title. I don't consider that contending. A team expected to contend but who gets upset early (a 1 or 2 seed) would also be considered a national title contender by most by virtue of having the talent and resumé to attain that status in the first place.

Can everybody stop with the misinformation? The 1982 Gophers were a #2 seed in the NCAA's and were ranked around 10th in the national polls for most of the year.

 

[dpodoll68]

He damn sure did.

Like I mentioned, there are people who don't like to recognize where the bar is at.

When? Even if you consider 1990 a "national title contender" (I don't, I assume most don't), that was 23 years ago. The bar is set based on something that happened a generation ago? What's the statute of limitations? Is the bar for the football team 5 national titles in 8 seasons?

 

[dpodoll68]

Can everybody stop with the misinformation? The 1982 Gophers were a #2 seed in the NCAA's and were ranked around 10th in the national polls for most of the year.

We were quite clearly talking about 1990. Pay attention.

 

[dpodoll68]

I absolutely consider 3 wins away from a national championship to be a contender. Only seven other teams got as close that year as we did, and I would say that in a field with as many teams as college basketball, being one of the eight teams closest to winning a title definitely makes you a contender.

Agree to disagree, I guess. A team with a 6 seed means they're expected to lose in the Sweet 16. Any team getting further than that is by definition overachieving and each successive win is harder than the last. It's very difficult for seeds numbered higher than 3 (or maybe 4) to win national titles, which is why it happens so rarely. Seeds higher than that reach the Elite Eight or Sweet 16 fairly frequently and then run out of luck. That's why I don't consider them national title contenders. The seed definitely matters, because it's indicative of their resumé. National title contenders (barring bad luck with injuries, etc.) don't get 6 seeds. If they play their way into the final weekend, they've turned themselves into national title contenders, regardless of seed.

 

[WilliamsArenaGuy]

Agree to disagree, I guess. A team with a 6 seed means they're expected to lose in the Sweet 16. Any team getting further than that is by definition overachieving and each successive win is harder than the last. It's very difficult for seeds numbered higher than 3 (or maybe 4) to win national titles, which is why it happens so rarely. Seeds higher than that reach the Elite Eight or Sweet 16 fairly frequently and then run out of luck. That's why I don't consider them national title contenders. The seed definitely matters, because it's indicative of their resumé. National title contenders (barring bad luck with injuries, etc.) don't get 6 seeds. If they play their way into the final weekend, they've turned themselves into national title contenders, regardless of seed.

m

 

[Bad Gopher]

We were quite clearly talking about 1990. Pay attention.

I am chastened.

The 1990 team was not a national title contender.

 

[golfing18now]

A team in the top 10ish (1 or 2 seed), or one that makes it to the Final Four. Being a 6 seed means they were somewhere in the top 20-25 teams, but not in the top 10. They were an overachieving team three wins away from a national title. I don't consider that contending. A team expected to contend but who gets upset early (a 1 or 2 seed) would also be considered a national title contender by most by virtue of having the talent and resumé to attain that status in the first place.

I might actually agree with that definition. Perhaps I would go to the Elite Eight, but that's a matter of opinion.

By including the top 2 seeds, by your own admission, you are including the entire resume of a team when evaluating whether or not they are a national title contender. You are not just relying upon the result in the tournament.

Wouldn't it also be fair for many of us on this board to evaluate Tubby's last season here based not just on the tournament result (as you have frequently declared it the most successful Gophers season in x years) but by looking at the entire resume, including the last half of the Big Ten season and early exit from the Big Ten tournament?

Seems like we need to consistent in how we evaluate the success or failure of a player/team/coach.....

 

[Bad Gopher]

I might actually agree with that definition. Perhaps I would go to the Elite Eight, but that's a matter of opinion.

By including the top 2 seeds, by your own admission, you are including the entire resume of a team when evaluating whether or not they are a national title contender. You are not just relying upon the result in the tournament.

Wouldn't it also be fair for many of us on this board to evaluate Tubby's last season here based not just on the tournament result (as you have frequently declared it the most successful Gophers season in x years) but by looking at the entire resume, including the last half of the Big Ten season and early exit from the Big Ten tournament?

Seems like we need to consistent in how we evaluate the success or failure of a player/team/coach.....

Right on. For that reason, this past year's Gopher team should be regarded as the 11 seed in the Tournament that they were. Inferior to Monson's 2005 team as well as Tubby's own 2009 and 2010 teams.

 

[SelectionSunday]

If Tubby squeezes 13 or 14 wins out of his Texas Tech squad this season, I'd give him my Hall of Fame endorsement. Watched quite a bit of Tech's game vs. Northern Arizona the other night and, wow, there's not much talent on that roster. Has the makings of a long season in Lubbock. That said, I won't be surprised if he does it. Tubby certainly got the maximum out of his first Gopher squad, maybe he'll do the same with the Red Raiders?

It was strange seeing 5 of the 6 same staff (Tubby, Taylor, Esposito, Goodson, Saul) on a different bench. For better or worse, Tubby certainly is loyal to his assistants, no one can argue that.

 

[katze019]

SS-

So you watched Alex Foster grab 7 boards in only 12 minutes of play. Wonder if we wouldn't be better off with him over King when it is all said and done.

 

[SelectionSunday]

SS-

So you watched Alex Foster grab 7 boards in only 12 minutes of play. Wonder if we wouldn't be better off with him over King when it is all said and done.

Didn't see the entire game, but yes I saw Foster was getting PT. My statement about the talent level wasn't specifically about Foster, but rather the entirety of the roster. As I said, I won't be surprised if Tubby gets a lot out of 'em, and I hope he does. Never had the amount of issues with Tubby that other folks here have.

 

[howieramone]

SS-

So you watched Alex Foster grab 7 boards in only 12 minutes of play. Wonder if we wouldn't be better off with him over King when it is all said and done.

Foster is a banger and hard-nosed defender. Alvin Ellis is better than any of Coach P.'s first 7 recruits. Norwood really put Coach P. and staff behind the eight ball when he didn't bother to keep in touch with either one. Live and learn.