If the Vikes stay it looks like they'll need to play in TCF Bank Stadium

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supadupafly said:
it is politics my friend. nothing more than turf politics. they are making the vikings play by a different set of rules than the twins were told to play by. think of it this way since the twins were never looking to move out of minneapolis. dayton is from minneapolis, most of dayton's administration is from minneapolis. and most of the dfl votes you would need to wrangle up in order to pass it through the house or senate would be from pro-urban dfl legislators from minneapolis or st. paul (who don't want to see a stadium in suburban ramsey county if it won't be in downtown st. paul). in their minds they just can't imagine a stadium in the suburbs with ample tailgating space. the people must be forced to ride to all games on light rail or ride the silly green ride-share bikes to them. ;-)

not saying i agree with putting a football stadium in a downtown area, but unfortunately it is just the reality of the politics these slime ball legislators are making everyone play.

and the red-herrings the basillica of st. mary is throwing out there about the linden avenue site are just that.......red herrings.
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For all of this forcing it to be in Minneapolis, we have no idea if the City Council will even approve it, even though it's not a 'new' tax. Ramsey had the votes to pass the sales tax increase if they would just waive the referendum.
 

station19 said:
Keep in mind the Hennipen County(Target Field) sales tax was .15%. The proposed Ramsey County(Viking) sales tax was .5%. Big difference.
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It shouldn't be. Either the county can decide it's own tax issues, or it can't. The state legislature isn't forcing Ramsey to do it, only giving them permission. The stupid referendum requirement didn't even exist until 1997 and was just an over-reaction to the first Twins bill. As it is, they are going to have to over-ride the Minneapolis $10 million cap that passed the same year. So they're waivng another requirement to help Hennipen, but nothing for Ramsey.
 

howeda7 said:
As it is, they are going to have to over-ride the Minneapolis $10 million cap that passed the same year. So they're waivng another requirement to help Hennipen, but nothing for Ramsey.
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They MIGHT override it. There is nothing saying the Dome site plan goes anywhere and no one saying it has the votes to pass. The statement was just Dayton stating his feelings that this looks like the only potential option this session. Which is probably true. But that still doesn't guarantee passage.

Also, there are reasons beyond "opposition to taxes" or "opposition to waiving referendums" that come in to play. There are likely many legislators who feel that a stadium should be built and that referendums can be waived but that they don't want to do that for the AH site. For some folks it's because they represent Minneapolis. Others are likely opposed to using state money to fund a stadium that primarily benefits a single private entity (Vikings/Wilfs) versus putting the stadium in Minneapolis where other multiple owners benefit. Still others might be opposed to spending money on infrastructure improvements when those same improvements (plus mass transit connections) already exist downtown. There are a lot of factors at play here.
 

MadtownGopher said:
How about the Vikings fund at least half of the new basketball practice facility as part of a deal to play at TCF?
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I thought that exact same thing upon reading this http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_19807112 article. Only, why not have the Vikings pay for ALL of it? It could be called Viking Hall (Wilf House?) or something and it would make great PR for Ziggy. In any event, it would seem at this point, that the University should have some pretty good leverage. And no more ridiculous discounts for the Vikings either! Here's to hoping Kaler stands up and (despite Badger Joel) turns this into a Win situation for the Athletics program.
 

The whining from the Rector of the Basilica is pure BS.

I guess he did not notice that there is a canyon like area with in interstate in it between the church and where the stadium would be built.

I would say I-94 and I-394 did a pretty good job of destroying the ambiance around the back yard of the Church more than this stadium would come close to doing.

The reality is that the stadium would improve the neighborhood greatly and turn a barren, scrubby wasteland into an attractive neighborhood. That area on the other side of, to the north of 394 is currently worthless for almost any commercial activity, and could use a jump start.

I do not see how that area is even physically connected to the Basilica. I doubt parishioners park back there and walk through the concrete jungle to get to church. Give me a break!
 


ruppertflywheel and Mulligan are right about the Anoka County site. Anoka County did a crap load of prep work and opened up a lot of legislative doors (and spent a bit of political capital) only to see the Wilfs pull out of the project. Still a lot of hard feelings.

One of the real challenges here is that the last two Vikings' owners, regardless of how committed they may be to the area and the team are absentee owners who have never quite figured out how to work the Legislature.
 

GoAUpher said:
They MIGHT override it. There is nothing saying the Dome site plan goes anywhere and no one saying it has the votes to pass. The statement was just Dayton stating his feelings that this looks like the only potential option this session. Which is probably true. But that still doesn't guarantee passage.

Also, there are reasons beyond "opposition to taxes" or "opposition to waiving referendums" that come in to play. There are likely many legislators who feel that a stadium should be built and that referendums can be waived but that they don't want to do that for the AH site. For some folks it's because they represent Minneapolis. Others are likely opposed to using state money to fund a stadium that primarily benefits a single private entity (Vikings/Wilfs) versus putting the stadium in Minneapolis where other multiple owners benefit. Still others might be opposed to spending money on infrastructure improvements when those same improvements (plus mass transit connections) already exist downtown. There are a lot of factors at play here.
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I agree that it is complicated, and I really don't care that much where they put it. I just find it ridiculous to ditch a willing local partner for one that may not even want to participate, especially when you're over-riding 'voter input' either way. And the simplest way to fund this (or any stadium) was, is and always will be a Racino at Canterbury Park. They should have done it for the Twins in 1996 and they should do it now. Of course it makes too much sense, so let's not do it.
 

50PoundHead said:
One of the real challenges here is that the last two Vikings' owners, regardless of how committed they may be to the area and the team are absentee owners who have never quite figured out how to work the Legislature.
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Looking at it from the team's point of view.. Outside of the uncontrolable MN Legislature, the absentee owner is the #1 challenge. If Zigy was Minnesotan, or the Vikings were owned by a Minnesotan/group of Minnesotans, then we probably wouldn't be having these convorsations, IMO.
 

howeda7 said:
I agree that it is complicated, and I really don't care that much where they put it. I just find it ridiculous to ditch a willing local partner for one that may not even want to participate, especially when you're over-riding 'voter input' either way. And the simplest way to fund this (or any stadium) was, is and always will be a Racino at Canterbury Park. They should have done it for the Twins in 1996 and they should do it now. Of course it makes too much sense, so let's not do it.
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They aren't ditching a willing partner. If the votes appear to do the deal at AH the Vikings will go back to them. Heck, there isn't even an official bill with the Vikings support yet. For all we know they'll choose to wait it out or put plans in motion to try and move.

In any case, it doesn't appear as though a racino is a simple solution either. First, the gaming/casino lobby in MN is very well funded and powerful and would move to oppose it. Assuming it passed (no small matter), it could apparently be subject to lawsuits. Here is the key quote from the linked article:
By the end of last week, Gov. Mark Dayton had thrown ice water over the whole idea. A local government's refusal to put any of its own money into the deal but instead rely on winnings from a racino that might or might not ever be approved, he said, is not much of a promise.

"Even if it were to pass, several years of litigation in federal courts should be expected. Proceeds from racinos could not provide the assured revenue stream to back state-issued bonds until that litigation was resolved."
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Is that a for sure? Dunno, the writer didn't get other opinions. But even getting to passage would be a tough sell given the lobbying efforts.
 



station19 said:
Keep in mind the Hennipen County(Target Field) sales tax was .15%. The proposed Ramsey County(Viking) sales tax was .5%. Big difference.
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but the ramsey county tax is only on select, targeted items. the hennepin county tax was a sales tax on everything county wide. HUGE difference there. i would consider the minnesota twin's hennepin county tax more burdensome than was is being proposed for a stadium in ramsey county for the vikings. at least present the facts correctly if you are going to take sides on this particular issue.
 

GoAUpher said:
They aren't ditching a willing partner. If the votes appear to do the deal at AH the Vikings will go back to them. Heck, there isn't even an official bill with the Vikings support yet. For all we know they'll choose to wait it out or put plans in motion to try and move.

In any case, it doesn't appear as though a racino is a simple solution either. First, the gaming/casino lobby in MN is very well funded and powerful and would move to oppose it. Assuming it passed (no small matter), it could apparently be subject to lawsuits. Here is the key quote from the linked article:


Is that a for sure? Dunno, the writer didn't get other opinions. But even getting to passage would be a tough sell given the lobbying efforts.
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gaming/casino lobby? let's call them/it what it really is. the greedy indian lobby who could give a rat's arse about the well being of the actual citizens of this state. remember that indian reservations are sovereign lands....hence they are not minnesotans. what a great idea. let's give a bunch of non-minnesotan indians, who consider themselves sovereign from this state, a freakin' monopoly on casino gaming in our state. a stupid, unbelievable casino monopoly where these indians don't pay one red cent to the state in taxes.

who were the idiot rubes that brokered that turd of an agreement back in 1988? oh yes, it was the DFL and former DFL governor rudy perpich. and DFL member campaigns are now funded in huge part by indian tribes with tax-free casinos on their supposedly sovereign and separate from our state reservations. WHAT A CROCK the politicians and the indian casino lobby are!
 

supadupafly said:
but the ramsey county tax is only on select, targeted items. the hennepin county tax was a sales tax on everything county wide. HUGE difference there. i would consider the minnesota twin's hennepin county tax more burdensome than was is being proposed for a stadium in ramsey county for the vikings. at least present the facts correctly if you are going to take sides on this particular issue.
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The comparison is valid and accurate, just out of date. The tax they were proposing until just recently was indeed a county wide sales tax at .5% That is a proposal that both the Vikings and Ramsey County thought would work. Only when it became clear that it would not did they come up with a different tax idea. As for "burdensome" it's a matter of perspective. HC's tax equates to $.03 on any $20 purchase. The new food/beverage tax equates to $.60 on every $20 spent on qualifying purchases. It may be more targeted, but all that means is that the burden is more targeted.
 

howeda7 said:
For all of this forcing it to be in Minneapolis, we have no idea if the City Council will even approve it, even though it's not a 'new' tax. Ramsey had the votes to pass the sales tax increase if they would just waive the referendum.
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and the politicians with minneapolis ties (including governor dayton) won't let that happen. because they know it would pass through the ramsey county commissioners and the vikings would be on their way to ramsey county. them not waiving the tax referendum requirement for ramsey county when it was waived by the legislature for the minnesota twins and hennepin county is a crock and wreaks of nothing more than parochial politics.
 



supadupafly said:
gaming/casino lobby? let's call them/it what it really is. the greedy indian lobby who could give a rat's arse about the well being of the actual citizens of this state. remember that indian reservations are sovereign lands....hence they are not minnesotans. what a great idea. let's give a bunch of non-minnesotan indians, who consider themselves sovereign form this state, a freakin' monopoly on casino gaming in our state. a stupid, unbelievable casino monopoly where these indians don't pay one red cent to the state in taxes.

who were the idiot rubes that brokered that turd of an agreement back in 1988? oh yes, it was the DFL and former DFL governor rudy perpich, whose DFL member's campaign's are now funded in huge part by indian tribes with casinos on their supposedly sovereign and seperate from our state reservations. WHAT A CROCK the politicians and the indian casino lobby is!
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FWIW, those "greedy Indians" also gave a huge donation to the U that helped make TCF possible.
 

Formo said:
Looking at it from the team's point of view.. Outside of the uncontrolable MN Legislature, the absentee owner is the #1 challenge. If Zigy was Minnesotan, or the Vikings were owned by a Minnesotan/group of Minnesotans, then we probably wouldn't be having these convorsations, IMO.
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I've worked around the Legislature for over 35 years and I wouldn't exactly call them uncontrollable. I think the issue in Minnesota compared to other states/municipalities is that we, as a state, exert much more control over local issues than in other states. I know that was a problem for McCombs who simply couldn't figure out that there was a difference between the San Antonio City Council and the Minnesota Legislature. In the case of the Wilfs, I think their New York/New Jersey roots, in which unions have a lot more power than they do here in Minnesota have made it difficult for them to figure things out. In a lot of other markets, teams snap their fingers and things get done. That's never really been the case in Minnesota.

The other thing people have to remember is that Miller Park in Milwaukee was one vote away from never being built and there was a referendum in Brown County, Wisconsin, to raise the sales tax in order to re-furbish Lambeau. The political culture of the Upper Midwest has always been a bit different and it's showing again here.
 

supadupafly said:
and the politicians with minneapolis ties (including governor dayton) won't let that happen. because they know it would pass through the ramsey county commissioners and the vikings would be on their way to ramsey county. them not waiving the tax referendum requirement for ramsey county when it was waived by the legislature for the minnesota twins and hennepin county is a crock and wreaks of nothing more than parochial politics.
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Sigh...so what about all the "no new taxes" leaders? Any room in your tirade for them? Because they are a primary reason Arden Hills isn't happening. That's a large ideological voting block that makes it impossible for the Republican leadership to support Arden Hills. The votes against AH might be too big regardless, but the Vikings were playing against a stacked deck with the no new taxes crowd.
 

=station19;491032]WCCO ch 4 will have a segment at 5:00 today about what improvements are needed at TCF for the Vikings to play there.
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I'm going to try and predict what I'm sure will be a pulitzer-worthy segment from CCO' re: improvements to TCF Bank for the Vikings.

1) need for new / upgraded locker rooms. This is the one area I'd be pretty territorial about if I was the Gopher football program. Sure it would be nice to have a professional football team swoon over the Gopher football amenities but I'd rather see the NFL / Vikings pay for the construction of a newly built or expanded and or modernized NFL caliber locker room and training tables. As one can see from the attached architectural diagrams there is more than sufficient room to build and add on to the existing locker rooms on the north side of the stadium. Only problem I could foretell is that the Vikings and their opponents would have adjoining locker rooms. Let's say $5-8 million for that construction.

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics12/800/TO/TOXRHUDJYEAAOGZ.20070104190511.jpg

2) Modernization of concessions stands $2-3M (adding tap lines, etc...)

3) Heating coils underneath field $6-8M (new turf??, labor, engineering, continuing maintenance...)

4) Temporary seating - don't know if this would be ideal. More of and eyesore on Saturdays but will bring in a few extras dollars for the Vikings who no doubt will try to squeeze every single dime they can out of playing in The Bank. Difficult to put a price tag on that but figure $3-5M per year.

5) Parking - don't think one nickel should go towards the Vikings if people park on University owned property. With each passing year their will be less and less surface parking available. Who pays for the parking attendents / police / garbage removal and set-up / porta-potties? The NFL of course. $1-2M per year for 10 dates a year. 2013 will be a monstrous clusterf^($ as the Central Corridor will yet to be completed and less surface / ramp parking available than there is now. Parking / tailgating on St. Paul campus will be a completely acceptable alternative for most though.

Probably lots more but figure on $18-20 million in one-time upgrades and $5-7 million per year in extra stadium / gameday maintenance.

PITA for the U no doubt but could be a cash cow for a few years and few nice upgrades to boot. Kinda like building a luxury home and getting a builders discount if he can showcase it in a Parade of Homes for people to oogle at for a month or so. Gotta think the bars / restaurants around campus are hoping for the above scenario.
 

50PoundHead said:
I've worked around the Legislature for over 35 years and I wouldn't exactly call them uncontrollable. I think the issue in Minnesota compared to other states/municipalities is that we, as a state, exert much more control over local issues than in other states. I know that was a problem for McCombs who simply couldn't figure out that there was a difference between the San Antonio City Council and the Minnesota Legislature. In the case of the Wilfs, I think their New York/New Jersey roots, in which unions have a lot more power than they do here in Minnesota have made it difficult for them to figure things out. In a lot of other markets, teams snap their fingers and things get done. That's never really been the case in Minnesota.

The other thing people have to remember is that Miller Park in Milwaukee was one vote away from never being built and there was a referendum in Brown County, Wisconsin, to raise the sales tax in order to re-furbish Lambeau. The political culture of the Upper Midwest has always been a bit different and it's showing again here.
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What I meant by 'the uncontrolable legislature' was that their actions are completely independent from the Vikings brass. I'll reference the old saying, "Control the controllables, everything else just let be".

Your post is right about the regional political culture. Our upper Midwest culture is a unique one.
 

What is really sad about this is that the only people these politicians are hurting are the fans of the team or the people of the state that follow the Vikings. Ziggy might be upset that he didn't get his way but in the end he still got his billion dollar stadium, the politicians are happy because they didn't cave to a billionaire and got to dictate terms. The only people that will be unhappy are the fans of the team who have to go back downtown into a small stadium built on the cheap with no where to enjoy tailgating or the atmosphere of the game.

So basically typical politics where the only people no one cares about is the majority
 

norman dale said:
I'm going to try and predict what I'm sure will be a pulitzer-worthy segment from CCO' re: improvements to TCF Bank for the Vikings.

1) need for new / upgraded locker rooms. This is the one area I'd be pretty territorial about if I was the Gopher football program. Sure it would be nice to have a professional football team swoon over the Gopher football amenities but I'd rather see the NFL / Vikings pay for the construction of a newly built or expanded and or modernized NFL caliber locker room and training tables. As one can see from the attached architectural diagrams there is more than sufficient room to build and add on to the existing locker rooms on the north side of the stadium. Only problem I could foretell is that the Vikings and their opponents would have adjoining locker rooms. Let's say $5-8 million for that construction.
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I believe a lot of that room has band facilities on it. I recall the plans you linked to. I used to have copies but don't anymore. Do you have the one's that show the other levels? I believe they show that all that open space isn't actually open.

norman dale said:
4) Temporary seating - don't know if this would be ideal. More of and eyesore on Saturdays but will bring in a few extras dollars for the Vikings who no doubt will try to squeeze every single dime they can out of playing in The Bank. Difficult to put a price tag on that but figure $3-5M per year.
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Hopefully the U holds firm and doesn't just add temp seats willy nilly. The Vikings are expecting a $37 million dollar loss, I'm betting some of that comes from fewer seats so perhaps temp seating wouldn't happen much at all?

norman dale said:
Probably lots more but figure on $18-20 million in one-time upgrades and $5-7 million per year in extra stadium / gameday maintenance.
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The Vikings went on record with their letter to Minneapolis saying that upgrades to TCF would only run at approx 11 million.
 

supadupafly said:
but the ramsey county tax is only on select, targeted items. the hennepin county tax was a sales tax on everything county wide. HUGE difference there. i would consider the minnesota twin's hennepin county tax more burdensome than was is being proposed for a stadium in ramsey county for the vikings. at least present the facts correctly if you are going to take sides on this particular issue.
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Take your own advice on facts. Ramsey County's half-percent sales tax WAS on everything, later changed to 3 percent on just food & beverage.

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_19778651
 

DrunkGopher said:
So basically typical politics where the only people no one cares about is the majority
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Except that this "majority" isn't an actual majority of any territory that legislators will care about. Even if you make some major assumptions about the total number of people who actually attend Vikings games and assume that this group all believe the same things about a stadium you are still talking about a small group in the grand scheme of things.
 

GoAUpher said:
Except that this "majority" isn't an actual majority of any territory that legislators will care about. Even if you make some major assumptions about the total number of people who actually attend Vikings games and assume that this group all believe the same things about a stadium you are still talking about a small group in the grand scheme of things.
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its a much larger group of people then the people that care about the Guthrie or any of the number of other things that we spend millions on each year that never bring anything tangible back to the state. I'm using tangible to refer to things like the creation of business, jobs or tax revenue
 

GoAUpher said:
I believe a lot of that room has band facilities on it. I recall the plans you linked to. I used to have copies but don't anymore. Do you have the one's that show the other levels? I believe they show that all that open space isn't actually open.

The Vikings went on record with their letter to Minneapolis saying that upgrades to TCF would only run at approx 11 million.
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http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics12/800/TO/TOXRHUDJYEAAOGZ.20070104190511.jpg

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics/800/YX/YXJJBLQEEWKZHCL.20070104190542.jpg

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics16/800/JE/JETYOKHACEZCZNM.20070104190652.jpg

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics16/800/JE/JETYOKHACEZCZNM.20070104190652.jpg

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics24/800/BW/BWEXYGAOFFFSGNE.20070104190805.jpg

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics27/800/AU/AUUEFAWZMNQGNEV.20070104190840.jpg

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics11/800/LJ/LJUISYMTDSOUSCX.20070104190913.jpg
 

DrunkGopher said:
its a much larger group of people then the people that care about the Guthrie or any of the number of other things that we spend millions on each year that never bring anything tangible back to the state. I'm using tangible to refer to things like the creation of business, jobs or tax revenue
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Ok, but its still not large enough to make this a "put the stadium in Arden Hills or we'll vote your ass out" issue (I'll lay out the case numerically if you want me to). Which is really the only majority that matters in legislative politics. I understand what you're trying to say. But saying that folks who support AH are in any way a majority doesn't make sense and overstates their political clout.

What it sounds like you're saying is that you want leaders who approved other public projects for cultural/events type reasons to do the same here. Especially since the economic impact of a stadium is going to be greater. It's a fair point, but it ignores the fact that those projects were passed under a legislature comprised of very different ideological factions. Heck, this isn't even the same group that got Target Field and TCF built (the current legislature probably wouldn't accomplish either).
 

supadupafly said:
and the politicians with minneapolis ties (including governor dayton) won't let that happen. because they know it would pass through the ramsey county commissioners and the vikings would be on their way to ramsey county. them not waiving the tax referendum requirement for ramsey county when it was waived by the legislature for the minnesota twins and hennepin county is a crock and wreaks of nothing more than parochial politics.
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If true, this makes no sense. Virtually every Hennipen legislator voted against the Twins stadium, some while kicking and screaming about how the rest of the state was screwing them. They didn't want the Twins stadium, but they do want the Vikings? You'd think they'd relish the chance to let Ramsey have it and pay for it.
 


Formo said:
What I meant by 'the uncontrolable legislature' was that their actions are completely independent from the Vikings brass. I'll reference the old saying, "Control the controllables, everything else just let be".

Your post is right about the regional political culture. Our upper Midwest culture is a unique one.
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I'm disturbed by the # of folks who seem almost eager for the Vikings to move. This is aside from the small group of Gopher fans who want them out for 'competative' reasons. It's as though they get some sort of pride out of it, from 'sticking it to the man.' I sense it would wear off pretty quickly sometime next September though. And Ziggy will still be rich either way. There was the same anger at Pohlad. He's dead. It wasn't about him. And it's not about Ziggy. I don't get it.
 

I'm disturbed by the number of people that want them to stay. I don't get that.
 

GopherVotary said:
I'm disturbed by the number of people that want them to stay. I don't get that.
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You don't understand why people want what is far and away the most popular sport in America in their city/state/general area? The Gophers have never lost a game because the Vikings are here.
 

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