Speculation, Kill and Expectations

[Iceland12]

The idea that Kill was WAY down the list of choices keeps coming up. It's wrong and so is a lot of internet speculation.

It's been happening for years now and we've all come to accept it but it's horse bleep anyway. The media speculates on candidates. The internet then takes those names and runs with them as if they are gospel. Then when the false reports turn out to be as much hokum as everyone should have KNOWN it was, whoever ends up with the job was the 300th choice? Or the "eighth or ninth".

It happens in any coaching vacancy, proposed MLB/NBA trades and Lord help us all, in EVERY NBA/NFL mock draft!: Just go back and check. There's only two things you can be sure of: there won't be any columns stating how they were duped by sources and there won't be any review columns anyway. There certainly won't be any "we were just guessing" columns!

To be fair, there are/were writers who have stated that sources do use them to stir the pot, get their clients raises, throw-off the opposition etc. The problem is the millions of people who buy into it.

Kill wasn't the first choice, I think that's pretty safe to say, but to think he was way down the list means you've bought into they hype, have an agenda or just plain forgot. Most of the early speculation on coaches included Kill but dismissed him for health concerns. He wasn't the "afterthought" that may people seem to believe, or oddly want to believe.

I'd also like to address the almost daily "we don't have any players, players are flunking out, we may save some, our QB is good, no he's not" reports. It's getting pretty dizzy.

Kill does overplay the "I'll get them to work, but boy I got nothing to work with" card. He's not on the Lou Holtz level, but he's rides that horse pretty well. He's clearly lowering expectations. He must realize this because he's starting to throw those disclaimers in there that things aren't completely awful. The good thing is he's got a track record of turning things around, just like Mason did. Unlike Mason, who seemed to really want the Georgia job but took this one, Kill seems to want this job. Brewster didn't have a track record. All we could do was hope that he would learn. I was one who waited way to long hoping that he would.

Kill gets a one year pass from me to get back to the middle of the pack. There wasn't a pass rush (HOW MANY DAMN YEARS HAVE WE BEEN SAYING THAT) and Gray is unproven. Brewster though IMHO, would have won 2 or 3 more games each of the last two seasons if he wasn't so damn stubborn about trying to force the run and/or stay with Weber. That means he could have had 8-9 wins in 2009 and 5 or 6 in 2010.

He didn't because, in the end, he wasn't a (good) Head Coach. Kill is a Head Coach. His learning curve isn't as steep but his rope, for me at least, his far, far shorter.

 

[corcoran1]

Despite the fact Brewster was actually a liability as an actual coach, the fact is if Decker had not gotten hurt in 2008, he probably would have won enough games to get an extension then. I agree completely on the play calling farce last year, but in reality in 2008, Brewster talked about being a running team, but about three games into the season Fisch pretty much did what he thought he needed to do to win and we passed a lot, because we had to. Last year is the year we gave games away by not throwing more, how Brewster thought we would be a power running team with this backfield is a complete mystery, but that is among the reasons he is no longer a head coach. We should have beaten SoDak, NIU, and NW if we had just passed the ball on something besides third down.
You made lots of good points and my wife agrees CKill is like Lou, but without most of the incredible ego. I agree he beats the "we aren't very good drum" really hard, and the fact is based on fundamentals as much as talent, we aren't. The good news is the whole "story" is to focus team attention on detail and execution, and that is also exactly what Holtz did. People can say it is about setting low expectations for himself; I think it is actually about setting higher standards for his players publicly. The fact is he has to have some story for fans as to why we are going to improve any time soon, and he knows that is where it will have to come from in the next two years. It is also something an average person can understand, because it is true in every business in the world. Plus, he just loves coaching details and execution; if you watch him at practice, he does not look like a head coach out there, he looks like a postion coach. He is not talking about theory, he is talking about how he lives every day.
He never misses an opportunity to sell those kids on effort and execution. If you go to practice, you can see him talking to them every day after practice on effort and execution, and they get pushed hard during practice. Those kids get direct individual feedback a lot. He is relentless. The kids who are injured and can not play on the field are working hard on individual exercises on the sidelines with an assistant trainer pushing them and making them do the exercise correctly; it was a long spring for some of those injured kids. I think he will succeed, but I don't know that, but I am convinced he is who he says he is.

 

[Iceland12]

Despite the fact Brewster was actually a liability as an actual coach, the fact is if Decker had not gotten hurt in 2008, he probably would have won enough games to get an extension then. I agree completely on the play calling farce last year, but in reality in 2008, Brewster talked about being a running team, but about three games into the season Fisch pretty much did what he thought he needed to do to win and we passed a lot, because we had to. Last year is the year we gave games away by not throwing more, how Brewster thought we would be a power running team with this backfield is a complete mystery, but that is among the reasons he is no longer a head coach. We should have beaten SoDak, NIU, and NW if we had just passed the ball on something besides third down.
You made lots of good points and my wife agrees CKill is like Lou, but without most of the incredible ego. I agree he beats the "we aren't very good drum" really hard, and the fact is based on fundamentals as much as talent, we aren't. The good news is the whole "story" is to focus team attention on detail and execution, and that is also exactly what Holtz did. People can say it is about setting low expectations for himself; I think it is actually about setting higher standards for his players publicly. The fact is he has to have some story for fans as to why we are going to improve any time soon, and he knows that is where it will have to come from in the next two years. It is also something an average person can understand, because it is true in every business in the world. Plus, he just loves coaching details and execution; if you watch him at practice, he does not look like a head coach out there, he looks like a postion coach. He is not talking about theory, he is talking about how he lives every day.
He never misses an opportunity to sell those kids on effort and execution. If you go to practice, you can see him talking to them every day after practice on effort and execution, and they get pushed hard during practice. Those kids get direct individual feedback a lot. He is relentless. The kids who are injured and can not play on the field are working hard on individual exercises on the sidelines with an assistant trainer pushing them and making them do the exercise correctly; it was a long spring for some of those injured kids. I think he will succeed, but I don't know that, but I am convinced he is who he says he is.

Well said.

 

[Dr.Don]

"...but I am convinced he is who he says he is."

Even Popeye said, "I yam what I yam, Olive Oyl" !

 

[Bayfieldgopher]

My hope for better success under Coach Kill is due to the fact that his system has worked very well for him in the past. That can't be said for Brewster and Mason.

Its difficult for me to place high expectations at this time as no one has been able to make Gopher football signficant in a very long time. No question that Coach Kill has taken on a huge challenge. I am anxious for the coming season but listening to him tells me that he does not have the horses to make his system work. It has to happen with recruiting, improved depth and putting more experienced players out there. Assuming Coach Kill continues to maintain his staff, I look for gradual improvement. Imagine the Gopher players who were tossed from one system to the next under Coach Brewster with little or no continuity!

I was one of the few on GH that wanted to see Coach Kill hired before Hoke, Sumlin, Golden, the guy from S.Miss./etc. after I soon realized we had zero chance on the name guys like Harbaugh, Patterson/etc. And the reason for that was his record and staff continuity.

Lets hope he can get it done here.

 

[Lakeville Goldy]

Well, he probably was the 300th choice after eliminating folks like Dungy, Harbaugh, Ryan, Gruden, Saban, Bill Bellicheck, Jimmy Johnson, reincarnating Bernie Bierman...

I'm guessing we'll never know for sure where he was in the list, but I'm sure the research company called a pile of coaches and they took the chances of getting a person versus his resume and came up with a list of fairly realistic options. He wasn't the first choice, he was likely 4th or 5th, assuming Hoke was actually contacted and they likely took a flyer on another coach or two before getting back to reality.

Frankly, it doesn't matter. He'll be judged based off W's. If he gets enough no one will care if he was the last choice or the first and vice versa.

 

[ButchNashGuy]

My hope for better success under Coach Kill is due to the fact that his system has worked very well for him in the past. That can't be said for Brewster and Mason.

Its difficult for me to place high expectations at this time as no one has been able to make Gopher football signficant in a very long time. No question that Coach Kill has taken on a huge challenge. I am anxious for the coming season but listening to him tells me that he does not have the horses to make his system work. It has to happen with recruiting, depth and putting more experienced players out there. Assuming Coach Kill continues to maintain his staff, I look for gradual improvement. Imagine the Gopher players who were tossed from one system to the next under Coach Brewster with little or no continuity.

I was one of the few on GH that wanted to see hired Coach Kill hired before Hoke, Sumlin, Golden, the guy from S.Miss./etc. after I soon realized we had zero chance on the name guys like Harbaugh, Patterson/etc. And the reason for that was record and staff continuity.

Lets hope he can get it done here.

I agree with Bayfield. I usually do since he is a great football mind As a fan I want immediate results and 9-3 record. Very rarely do teams have great seasons with a new coaching staff. My gut tells me we are going to have about 5 wins. Less stupid penalties, better special teams, probably will have hard time sustaining drives because of our Oline, Defense will probably let other teams march down the field and control the game. In the end, you can win 5 games and feel like it is a bad season or we will see the progress. Winning 4 games in Holtz's first year - I was fired up. The team was tough and disciplined and you saw the progress. I think we see the progress with Kill in year 1. Hope I am wrong and we win 7 or more.

 

[imthewalrus]

Bayfield: I HOPE that Coach Kill can surpass Coach Mason...

Coach Mason was the Coach of the Year in the MAC, the Big Eight and the Big Ten. He was the Coach of the Year in the MAC Conference in 1986. He was the Big 8 Coach of the Year 2 times: 1991 and 1995. He was the Big Ten Coach of the Year in 1999. He was named Prexy of the American Football Coaches Assn. in 2002. (He became the third coach from the U of M to hold that honor, following Bernie Bierman and Murray Warmath.)

So, by all means I hope that Coach Kill can surpass Coach Mason. He would have to achieve some success to surpass those awards and some of the seasons Coach Mason put together at Kansas and Minnesota. The only common ground the two share at this moment in time would be the 2 years Mason spent at Kent State in the MAC and the 3 seasons Coach Kill coached at Northern Illinois, also in the MAC.

You are pretty hostile toward Coach Mason Bayfield. May I assume that is your normal posture towards coaches? This is a tough gig Bayfield. I most certainly am wishing coach Kill the very best and I hope he is able to surpass Coach Mason's record here at Minnesota. That being said: I would hope that you would apply apples to apples when making statements about what a coach brings to the table.

By the way: do you really believe that you are a better judge of coaching ability than the folks who voted Coach Mason those honors? When a coach has been awarded Coach of the Year honors on 4 occasions in three different Division I Conferences, I think that makes a rather strong statement about that coach. But... what the hey??????? ; 0 )

 

[calminnfan]

I am not so sure on the riding the "nothing to work with" horse. They need to improve their fundamentals, work ethic, focus and studies. I suspect part of what Kill may include academic casualties.

That said I do agree Kill was probably not the first choice, but like was notice when Kill was first hired, most schools, even Michigan and Miami had to settle for what would be considered 2nd tier coaches.

 

[TCF=UnitedWeStand]

The idea that Kill was WAY down the list of choices keeps coming up. It's wrong and so is a lot of internet speculation.

It's been happening for years now and we've all come to accept it but it's horse bleep anyway. The media speculates on candidates. The internet then takes those names and runs with them as if they are gospel. Then when the false reports turn out to be as much hokum as everyone should have KNOWN it was, whoever ends up with the job was the 300th choice? Or the "eighth or ninth".

It happens in any coaching vacancy, proposed MLB/NBA trades and Lord help us all, in EVERY NBA/NFL mock draft!: Just go back and check. There's only two things you can be sure of: there won't be any columns stating how they were duped by sources and there won't be any review columns anyway. There certainly won't be any "we were just guessing" columns!

To be fair, there are/were writers who have stated that sources do use them to stir the pot, get their clients raises, throw-off the opposition etc. The problem is the millions of people who buy into it.

Kill wasn't the first choice, I think that's pretty safe to say, but to think he was way down the list means you've bought into they hype, have an agenda or just plain forgot. Most of the early speculation on coaches included Kill but dismissed him for health concerns. He wasn't the "afterthought" that may people seem to believe, or oddly want to believe.

I'd also like to address the almost daily "we don't have any players, players are flunking out, we may save some, our QB is good, no he's not" reports. It's getting pretty dizzy.

Kill does overplay the "I'll get them to work, but boy I got nothing to work with" card. He's not on the Lou Holtz level, but he's rides that horse pretty well. He's clearly lowering expectations. He must realize this because he's starting to throw those disclaimers in there that things aren't completely awful. The good thing is he's got a track record of turning things around, just like Mason did. Unlike Mason, who seemed to really want the Georgia job but took this one, Kill seems to want this job. Brewster didn't have a track record. All we could do was hope that he would learn. I was one who waited way to long hoping that he would.

Kill gets a one year pass from me to get back to the middle of the pack. There wasn't a pass rush (HOW MANY DAMN YEARS HAVE WE BEEN SAYING THAT) and Gray is unproven. Brewster though IMHO, would have won 2 or 3 more games each of the last two seasons if he wasn't so damn stubborn about trying to force the run and/or stay with Weber. That means he could have had 8-9 wins in 2009 and 5 or 6 in 2010.

He didn't because, in the end, he wasn't a (good) Head Coach. Kill is a Head Coach. His learning curve isn't as steep but his rope, for me at least, his far, far shorter.

Are you referencing Reusse's article today? If so, it's funny that you posted this as I sent Reusse an email 20 minutes ago before even seeing this post pointing out that the idea that the public was disappointed in his hiring is not an accurate description as "public" is too big of a blanket. I explained in my email to him that those in the area that actually follow college football seemed to be very receptive of his hiring - admittedly not necessarily the first choice given some of other names that were being thrown out before his hiring, but still - many, including myself, were very happy when Coach Kill was hired.

Rather than saying "the public" which pretty much implies everyone, I wish Reusse (whose opinions I respect, even though some I don't agree with), Souhan (who knows nothing about college football), and Barreiro (peripheral observer) among others would stop making such a generalization.

I would argue that a perhaps a more accurate description would be "many (I have no way of knowiing if "many" would even be an accurate description) casual observers of Gopher football" (people that may follow the Gophers a little, but would know nothing about any school outside of either the Big 10 or the Top 25) were disappointed".

 

[Iceland12]

Are you referencing Reusse's article today? If so, it's funny that you posted this as I sent Reusse an email 20 minutes ago before even seeing this post pointing out that the idea that the public was disappointed in his hiring is not an accurate description as "public" is too big of a blanket. I explained in my email to him that those in the area that actually follow college football seemed to be very receptive of his hiring - admittedly not necessarily the first choice given some of other names that were being thrown out before his hiring, but still - many, including myself, were very happy when Coach Kill was hired.

Rather than saying "the public" which pretty much implies everyone, I wish Reusse (whose opinions I respect, even though some I don't agree with), Souhan (who knows nothing about college football), and Barreiro (peripheral observer) among others would stop making such a generalization.

I would argue that a perhaps a more accurate description would be "many (I have no way of knowiing if "many" would even be an accurate description) casual observers of Gopher football" (people that may follow the Gophers a little, but would know nothing about any school outside of either the Big 10 or the Top 25) were disappointed".

Well stated. No, I didn't read Ruesse's article, didn't see it. I read the Strib at about 6:30 am so I might have missed it. I'll go back and look. I've said before that I liked what Kill's NIU teams had done against the Big Ten and from what I had read about his work at SIU. Didn't look into any farther though, because when his name was mentioned early on I just dismissed it because of health concerns.

 

[TCF=UnitedWeStand]

Here's the article I was referring to:

http://www.1500espn.com/blogs/Jerry_Kill_fretting_over_Joplin_friends

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Coach Mason was the Coach of the Year in the MAC, the Big Eight and the Big Ten. He was the Coach of the Year in the MAC Conference in 1986. He was the Big 8 Coach of the Year 2 times: 1991 and 1995. He was the Big Ten Coach of the Year in 1999. He was named Prexy of the American Football Coaches Assn. in 2002. (He became the third coach from the U of M to hold that honor, following Bernie Bierman and Murray Warmath.)

So, by all means I hope that Coach Kill can surpass Coach Mason. He would have to achieve some success to surpass those awards and some of the seasons Coach Mason put together at Kansas and Minnesota. The only common ground the two share at this moment in time would be the 2 years Mason spent at Kent State in the MAC and the 3 seasons Coach Kill coached at Northern Illinois, also in the MAC.

You are pretty hostile toward Coach Mason Bayfield. May I assume that is your normal posture towards coaches? This is a tough gig Bayfield. I most certainly am wishing coach Kill the very best and I hope he is able to surpass Coach Mason's record here at Minnesota. That being said: I would hope that you would apply apples to apples when making statements about what a coach brings to the table.

By the way: do you really believe that you are a better judge of coaching ability than the folks who voted Coach Mason those honors? When a coach has been awarded Coach of the Year honors on 4 occasions in three different Division I Conferences, I think that makes a rather strong statement about that coach. But... what the hey??????? ; 0 )

To speak your language, the only thing that really matters is winning in the Big 10. Bayfield has a point, I think we all hope that Kill averages more than 3.2 Big 10 wins a season, or else he will be looking for another job (just like Mason).

I realize Mason did a better job than Brew but winning more than 40% of your Big 10 football games isn't and shouldn't be considered an unrealistic standard. I don't care what Rotary Club voted him coach of the year, if he isn't winning in the Big 10 at a decent rate, he won't be here for long.

I thought you, of all people, would understand that standard.

 

[Iceland12]

Here's the article I was referring to:

http://www.1500espn.com/blogs/Jerry_Kill_fretting_over_Joplin_friends

Thanks. I virtually never go to blogs except during the season. Pretty good overall column. Didn't know Joplin connection. Must be a very tough day indeed for Kill and his wife.

Here's the part that gets me. Reusse uses it again and again and he's just dead wrong:

Much of the praise is coming from the same Gophers hardcores that slobbered all over Brewster during his first couple of years in Minnesota seasons _ offering the opinion that an incessant salesman and hell-bent recruiter was exactly what this program needed.

Nobody slobbered over the Brewster hiring because nobody knew who in the hell he was! Sid and other reporters had to go and get quotes from Mac Brown, Schottenhemier and Shanahan before people started warming up to the choice. When he said he embraced many things about the past and was shooting to take a team to the Rose Bowl rather then just making a bowl game people were a lot happier. Not with Brewster, but with what he said.

Ruesse may be outright lying, but I don't think this is the case. He just can't get past the over-well-ming pasting he took for walking right out of the meeting saying what a liar and blowhard Brewster was. He seemed to want Brewster to have said how lousy the job was, how no kid would ever want to come here and winning 6 games a year should all Minnesota fans should expect. He misinterpreted disgust for his dick-like behavior toward Brewster for solid support for the guy and I've been a fan since the Monday Night Sports Talk days!

Only when Brewster had them at 7-1 did Ruesse begrudgingly admit that maybe Brewster wasn't completely insincere and a huckster. Maybe "what you see is what you get". That quickly faded and Ruesse keeps going back to the illusive "masses of Gopher fans" who thought that Brewster was the messiah.

The problem with that rewriting of history is most of the fervent Mason fans never got on board. Now take out guys like me that will support whomever is the Gopher coach. Now take out anybody who never HEARD of Brewster before he was named.

Then finally take out the people who lost faith after they went 1-11.

How many "Gopher hardcores" would there be left TO " slobber(ed) all over Brewster during his first couple of years in Minnesota seasons"?

No, Ruesse was a jackass after the first press conference. He should quit trying to rewrite history to make it seem as if instead he was a genius. He hadn't heard of Brewster either. It's time to stop pretending that he could predict the future by the hearing Brewster speak for the first time.

He's a good writer, but he's as much of a prophet as the guy who said the world would end on Saturday.

 

[EG#9]

A lot of interesting posts in this thread, it's an enjoyable read. The one thing I disagree with is the idea that Kill was not way down the list. When Maturi had his initial press conference to fire Tim Brewster, he set the bar at a certain level. He had plenty of chances to lower that bar, but never did even claiming he was "surprised" that a certain candidate was interested in the job. When reports started trickling out that the Gophers were looking at guys who were not on many (any) GopherHoler's "A" list, many didn't believe it (including myslef). When Joel and Co. reportedly got turned down by Brady Hoke (who didn't excite many people and certainly wasn't a the homerun suggested by Joel), many of us did not believe that report. While all this was going on, the University made a big pitch that they were going to announce the new coach via facebook and it seemed like they were preparing to "wow" the public.

The search continues to drag on with rumors of it not going well, and then on a Sunday (yes a Sunday, during a Vikings game no less), word leaks out that the Gophers have their coach. Initially it's KFAN reporting that it is Paul Chryst, then reports start trickling in that it is Jerry Kill. Most don't want to believe it is Chryst or Kill, and Maturi finally announces it is Kill in a rather understated way on Sunday evenening foregoing the big production of announcing via facebook. To compound the problem, when faced with backlash, Maturi makes comments like he "knew no big name coach would take "THIS" job" and the famous " I offered the job to Barry Alvarez" line.

This was a total cluster F of a search lead by a guy who many seem to like on a personal level, but few respect on a professional level. I hope we lucked in to the coach that will win, but the process sucked.

 

[GophersInIowa]

This was a total cluster F of a search lead by a guy who many seem to like on a personal level, but few respect on a professional level. I hope we lucked in to the coach that will win, but the process sucked.

I think it's hard to say for sure what actually happened and who they talked to in the process. What Maturi said may have been just like "coach speak", just saying something to say something.