Would you accept a Michigan-level scandal/mess...

[swede2]

Absolutely. Moore going off the deep end is sad, it's awful for his family and for the young woman he terrorized. But everything before that - I just generally assume that the coach is laying pipe to someone not his wife, the sign stealing stuff was overblown, etc. It's stuff that goes on everywhere but was daylighted at Michigan.

And remember, by winning 3 Big 10 titles and a natty, we weren't condoning the nuthouse stuff Moore pulled at that end. We didn't know about it then. We know about it now. What Moore did was absolutely wrong but it did not have anything to do with what happened on the field.

 

[GophersInIowa]

I don't have a huge problem with the Connor Stallings stuff - I think everyone does it and I would absolutely be 100% celebrate a natty won by the Gophers under similar circumstances.

I haven't followed it super close, but with the Moore stuff, I'm not sure what Michigan even did wrong. The fired him. They probably hate the way it went down, but they're probably ecstatic that they could clearly can him with cause (most UM fans thought it was only a matter of time for him). I haven't followed it super closely though, so if there is more to this than I am missing, I retract.

All of that to say, yes, I would absolutely be 100% okay with Michigan's level of corruption.

Where it gets a little trickier is if you're talking about Florida basketball type stuff, but I say that knowing I would likely not care if we were winning. Like, I would be fine hiring Kiffin or Urban.

So trickier, but still okay.

I find it hard to believe Michigan didn't know something was going on long before this all came out. Rumors are people close to the program knew there was a bunch of $hit happening with him. In the end they did the right thing but I'm guessing they knew of it during the season to some extent. But didn't want it to be a distraction so waiting until the season was over.

 

[MonikerSchmoniker45]

If instead of the Wolverines, it would have been the Gophers who won the national title in 2023, in addition to having won three consecutive B1G titles in that time?

NGL, I think I would be fine with it.

Would you take a Gopher Natty if it meant the tommies will never make the NCAA tourney?

 

[ergopher]

If it's a scandal like recruiting violations or some sort of breaching of NCAA bylaws like that I'd be fine with it. But if it's something that hurts real human beings like physical/sexual assault, hazing, etc I would not.

 

[mngg11]

yes and anyone saying no is lying to themself

I'd venture many fathers of daughters here saying no would not be lying to themselves.

 

[BigTenGuy]

. . . the sign stealing stuff was overblown, etc. It's stuff that goes on everywhere but was daylighted at Michigan. . . .,

Can you identify the other schools that have engaged in systematic in-person scouting like Michigan? Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think your take that what Michigan did happens all the time is way off base.

 

[disco]

Would you take a Gopher Natty if it meant the tommies will never make the NCAA tourney?

Umm, why would I care one way or another if the Tommies make an NCAA tournament? I'm mostly indifferent towards them. I do think all the hand wringing about mentioning them here is funny though.

 

[minnyrules11]

Can you identify the other schools that have engaged in systematic in-person scouting like Michigan? Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think your take that what Michigan did happens all the time is way off base.

Especially a school like Michigan with every resource/advantage available.

 

[disco]

Based on previous discussions I'm not shocked you are. I don't mean that in a bad way I just know where you stand on that stuff. As a current coach and a former player, I can say I wouldn't be ok with it.

No offense taken. I've been quite clear that I accept that college football is a dirty business, run in large part by some pretty sleazy people.

 

[Word]

Can you identify the other schools that have engaged in systematic in-person scouting like Michigan? Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think your take that what Michigan did happens all the time is way off base.

It was high level cheating. It's why so many coaches were pissed off at Michigan and calling it out. It was spying.

 

[fmlizard]

This isn't really indicative of a program's issues but one man's poor judgement and ethics. The encounters were consensual and nothing was illegal until the break in and threats.

The sign stealing racket was way worse from a program corruption standpoint.

I would walk through either, especially the coach's personal scandal, for a run at the very top.

 

[Lou Brown]

PJ having consensual sex with his assistant for a Natty? Live your life coach, Im in.

 

[LesBolstad]

Wasn't John Gutekunst let go in part for having an inappropriate relationship with a female trainer?

The Minnesota version of MI got us a 29-37-2 record (18-28-2 conf) and an Independence Bowl win in 6 full seasons. Very Minnesota Sports like

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Call me old fashion or whatever, but I disagree with this take. Why do we want to lower our standards as to our morals? That shouldn't change. Bob if you're married, would you do what he did?

I hear what you're saying on a personal level. I would never cheat on my wife and the thought of it, especially having children, is abhorrent.

That said, I don't really factor that into the professional sports teams that I follow or any of my other forms of entertainment. I like songs by musicians who I'm sure cheated on their wives. Anthony Edwards had 4 kids by 4 different women in a 16 month span. PJ allegedly cheated on his first wife.

I used to want a higher standard for college athletics. But to me, it's now just professional athletics with U of M branding.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Geezus, some of these responses are a bit depressing.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I find it hard to believe Michigan didn't know something was going on long before this all came out. Rumors are people close to the program knew there was a bunch of $hit happening with him. In the end they did the right thing but I'm guessing they knew of it during the season to some extent. But didn't want it to be a distraction so waiting until the season was over.

I hear you, it seems shocking that they wouldn't know. However, it was investigated in March (I believe) and it was supposedly known that the boosters did not like Moore. They felt sort of stuck with him post-Harbaugh. I would have thought they would have used it as an excuse to move on with cause.

If Michigan knew about the affair and let it go, yeah, then they were at fault.

Under that assumption, if I am being honest, if my choices were the following:
(1) Head Coach is a perfect husband and we win between 6-9 games per year; AND
(2) Heach Coach is sleeping with a staffer and we go on an Indiana-type run;

I am picking number 2.

I am not proud to say that, but just being honest.

 

[Catechol]

PJ having consensual sex with his assistant for a Natty? Live your life coach, Im in.

The concept of consent gets more difficult when there is a large power gradient. Initially very likely things were consensual (which means she also knowingly violated the university policy). However when there’s a power gradient it becomes more difficult for the subordinate to withdraw consent without fear of consequences. Where it could be more odious is regarding Moore’s alleged purchase of Plan B abortifacient. If this did happen, could he have used his leverage to coerce her if that wasn’t her choice? (All hypothetical).

 

[cheeseheadgophfan]

I don't have a huge problem with the Connor Stallings stuff - I think everyone does it and I would absolutely be 100% celebrate a natty won by the Gophers under similar circumstances.

I haven't followed it super close, but with the Moore stuff, I'm not sure what Michigan even did wrong. The fired him. They probably hate the way it went down, but they're probably ecstatic that they could clearly can him with cause (most UM fans thought it was only a matter of time for him). I haven't followed it super closely though, so if there is more to this than I am missing, I retract.

All of that to say, yes, I would absolutely be 100% okay with Michigan's level of corruption.

Where it gets a little trickier is if you're talking about Florida basketball type stuff, but I say that knowing I would likely not care if we were winning. Like, I would be fine hiring Kiffin or Urban.

So trickier, but still okay.

What did Michigan do wrong?
The prosector just said on the record that their romantic relationship has been ongoing for a couple of years. She got pregnant and had an abortion and.........
MAGICALLY her salary doubles from about $50,000 to $100,000 during this time?
Moore wasn't in charge of that payment.
That was hush money.
They deserve HUGE penalties.
Ganglehoff writes a couple of papers and we nearly get the death penalty.
Michigan now has a history of cheating and now paying hush money for an abortion.
This should get REALLY ugly for the "Michigan Men". LOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[#2Gopher]

What did Michigan do wrong?
The prosector just said on the record that their romantic relationship has been ongoing for a couple of years. She got pregnant and had an abortion and.........
MAGICALLY her salary doubles from about $50,000 to $100,000 during this time?
Moore wasn't in charge of that payment.
That was hush money.
They deserve HUGE penalties.
Ganglehoff writes a couple of papers and we nearly get the death penalty.
Michigan now has a history of cheating and now paying hush money for an abortion.
This should get REALLY ugly for the "Michigan Men". LOLOLOLOLOLOL

I don't remember roughly how many she did, but it was FAR more than a couple papers. Haskins screwed up big time. Kids are here to get an education. Think the parents like that for the most part?

 

[disco]

Kids are here to get an education.

 

[Unregistered User]

If someone wants to know where I'd draw the line - probably something like happened at Baylor, where there were multiple rapists protected and a murder covered up.

A true paragon of virtue

Ladies and gentlemen, we have found our North Star

Scumbag

 

[Breakin' The Plane]

Lie. Cheat. Steal.

 

[gophmeister]

For one glorious season? Yes. Why do you ask?

 

[Gopherchase]

I don’t think as many folks on here that say they’d take the trade really would. Michigan is a dumpster fire of moral issues of all kinds.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

I wasn’t even thinking about the Sherrone issue. We know Michigan has a laundry list of known recruiting violations in addition to the known creepy assistants and coach (and that’s not including Jim who is a wacko mess). In other words the known recruiting and program violations are probably just the tip of the iceberg. It was and is a dirty program and their title run is forever asterisked in my mind. Fair to think I’m a nut.

 

[theTurning]

Reminds me of that video where a wife asks her husband if he’d punch her for $1B and he’s like are you kidding they wouldn’t be able to get me off you. Yes. The answer is yes.

 

[Breakin' The Plane]

I don’t think as many folks on here that say they’d take the trade really would. Michigan is a dumpster fire of moral issues of all kinds.

Do I know going in? Like am I fully aware there's a price to be paid, or don't I learn that until after the fact?
It doesn't change my answer, but others who haven't been broken and beaten down by life at every turn like I have might change their minds.

 

[disco]

A true paragon of virtue

Ladies and gentlemen, we have found our North Star

Scumbag

At least I'm honest. I'm fairly impressed at how many others here are honest as well.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

What did Michigan do wrong?
The prosector just said on the record that their romantic relationship has been ongoing for a couple of years. She got pregnant and had an abortion and.........
MAGICALLY her salary doubles from about $50,000 to $100,000 during this time?
Moore wasn't in charge of that payment.
That was hush money.
They deserve HUGE penalties.
Ganglehoff writes a couple of papers and we nearly get the death penalty.
Michigan now has a history of cheating and now paying hush money for an abortion.
This should get REALLY ugly for the "Michigan Men". LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Yeah, like I said, if it comes out that Michigan knew about the affair, that was clearly wrong. If they paid hush money for an abortion, yeah, that would clearly be wrong. I'm not sure I agree that Moore wasn't in charge of those payments. Most coaches have a ton of say in how their staff gets paid.

It's certainly possible they knew. That said, they investigated it in March and are on the record of saying of not finding enough evidence. Does that mean much? I'm not sure.

I could certainly be wrong, it just does not make sense to me that Michigan would go to great lengths to protect this guy. He was not overwhelmingly popular. If you go to Michigan message boards, they are actually kind of pumped that they got out of the guaranteed money. They really didn't feel like they got to pick Harbaugh's successor, I think a lot of folks at Michigan would have been pumped to find a way out (ala Mel Tucker and Fitz). I'm not sure "Michigan" is a singular group of people in this case.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

The concept of consent gets more difficult when there is a large power gradient. Initially very likely things were consensual (which means she also knowingly violated the university policy). However when there’s a power gradient it becomes more difficult for the subordinate to withdraw consent without fear of consequences. Where it could be more odious is regarding Moore’s alleged purchase of Plan B abortifacient. If this did happen, could he have used his leverage to coerce her if that wasn’t her choice? (All hypothetical).

She consented. I don't think it's really complicated.

This idea that someone cannot consent because of various power dynamics is nonsense. Tons of relationships come with various power dynamics. The power dynamics can be due to professional relations, wealth, connections, fame, attractiveness, family dynamics. In fact, power dynamics can be constantly shifting.

The truth is that she held an enormous amount of power in that relationship. He had everything to lose. For the sake illustrating the power dynamic, think of the hypothetical scenario where he wanted to break up with her. Let's say on Monday he decided it was over and she started to stalk him, what would have been his option? Could he go to the police without risking his career?

Like in most relationships, the power dynamic flipped. Do you think he could have fired her, if wanted to? Do you think he could have dumped her, if he wanted to and she didn't? He had the power at the jump, but he was in her back pocket after it started.

I'm not saying this to show any sympathy for him at all. I'm just discussing how power dynamics shift and evolve.