IF we finish with only 6 wins....

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Clairemont Gopher said:
Yes, the Gopher defense was superb in that Holiday Bowl win. Got some payback on Coach Air Raid after Mason's epic last game collapse. Plus Claeys was able to rebuild the team's spirit after those ugly suspensions.That tipped pass in the end zone to Brooks that should have been a typical Leidner pick stands out for mind.
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Also didn't they have that defensive set where they basically lined up in a single file row?
 



I'm glad the "finish with only 6 wins" is on the football forum vs basketball, but I'm starting to wonder if it fits in both places...
 



Jack jones said:
With only 6 wins, pack up the equipment, hit the weight room. Fire both coordinators and the line coaches. Hit the portal hard for just about every position available. Please don’t offer anyone with just 1 year of eligibility even though we had good success with Bosmer. Not so much with others.
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Do you ever have good takes? Seriously. How is more practice bad? How is more money for the team (via the conference) bad?
 



mngolf said:
Do you ever have good takes? Seriously. How is more practice bad? How is more money for the team (via the conference) bad?
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C'mon man, the Admin took the bold stance that athletics was getting to big in 1961 which catapulted us to the top of college football. it's the kind of leadership that has gotten us where we are. Jack is just towing the line that commitment to improvement, revenue, and relevance are not important to success to prove a point. He's a regular Don Quixote.

About as effective in his march for sanity as well.
 

Gopherchase said:
Does anyone really care? We have only been to one good bowl in PJs time here at the U.
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I'm 42 years old and we've only been to two good bowls in my life. PJ has been the head coach for about 20% of my life and has been to 50% of the 'good bowls'
 

MNfootballfan said:
I'm 42 years old and we've only been to two good bowls in my life. PJ has been the head coach for about 20% of my life and has been to 50% of the 'good bowls'
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I just don’t understand how people can make a good faith argument fleck isn’t the best coach with the most success since warmath.

Since 1969 the gophers have had 7 seasons with 4 or fewer losses.
Fleck has 4 of them
One of them was 2020 which doesn’t count so really he has 3/6


Claeys 1
Mason 2
All others 0

There is a question if we could do better but to argue he hasn’t raised the floor is asinine.
He also happens to have the only top 10 AP finish since the 60s
 

caliGopher said:
C'mon man, the Admin took the bold stance that athletics was getting to big in 1961 which catapulted us to the top of college football. it's the kind of leadership that has gotten us where we are. Jack is just towing the line that commitment to improvement, revenue, and relevance are not important to success to prove a point. He's a regular Don Quixote.

About as effective in his march for sanity as well.
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If true, why did the admin dowplay athletics in 61? What changed in 61?
 



FanSinceTheFifties said:
If true, why did the admin dowplay athletics in 61? What changed in 61?
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The Vikings started playing in town in 1961. The Lakers (with their prize draftee, Elgin Baylor)! bagged a$$ for LA. Their last season in Minneapolis was the 1959-1960 season. Calvin G. had turnred the old Washington Senators into the new Minnesota Twins too and 1961 was their first year. That is a large part of what changed.

I was 13 years old that year that the Lakers left! Changes…lots of changes and Gopher Football was unseated. But there was one last hurrah! Rosebowl1 and Rosebowl 2.

The U of M went to the Rosebowl Game January 1,1961 and lost to U of Washington. The next year, Ohio State won the Big Ten chamionship and the U of M finished second. However, the powers that dictated the Buckeyes future at that time, voted to NOT accept the Rose bowl invitation. So, the U of M accepted and the team beat UCLA.

And one of the things bantered about in the battle that went on at Ohio State questioned whether there was too much emphasis on athletics? I somehow don’t think that concept made too much of a lasting impact on very many of the movers and shakers around good old tOSU or in the Horseshoe. Woody Hayes and his group pretty much made sure of that. And woody’s old player, at Miami of Ohio, Bo Schembeckler & Woody battled on for so long making sure that THE GAME was the total emphasis of sports in Michigan and Ohio. They ushered in the concept of the big two and little eight in the Big Ten.

Since then: if you are a real Gopher Big Ten football who Loves Big Ten football could you ask for more? Otherwise you may spend too much time feeling sorry for yourself and always want to fire some coach or be looking for some one to play mr money bags to do what you think should be done in the athletic department…You know that for most of the universities in the conference it is the rivalries, traditions and the excitement going on campus, the sights and sounds.

Who in their right mind would ever bet on the outcome of a football game?

Good luck people.

Beat the Widcat, Gopher. Win the game in that crazy old baseball stadium on Saturday! and have fun fans!
 
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Some guy said:
I just don’t understand how people can make a good faith argument fleck isn’t the best coach with the most success since warmath.

Since 1969 the gophers have had 7 seasons with 4 or fewer losses.
Fleck has 4 of them
One of them was 2020 which doesn’t count so really he has 3/6


Claeys 1
Mason 2
All others 0

There is a question if we could do better but to argue he hasn’t raised the floor is asinine.
He also happens to have the only top 10 AP finish since the 60s
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Check the winning percentages of the teams he played in the B1G. Check how many times he played both Michigan and Ohio State, vs. how many times previous coaches did over the same period. He significantly benefited from playing in the West Division.

Doesn't mean he didn't deliver on the softer schedules, but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison overall.

Back in the early days of Fleck ball, the scheme was as conservative as it is now, but his teams showed up for the majority of the games they played. I'd argue that this year, they showed up for only 2 of the 10 games we've played. We have a few injuries this year, notably DT, but nowhere near the catastrphic injury lists on some of the teams in the B1G this year.
 

caliGopher said:
Check the winning percentages of the teams he played in the B1G. Check how many times he played both Michigan and Ohio State, vs. how many times previous coaches did over the same period. He significantly benefited from playing in the West Division.
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caliGopher said:
Doesn't mean he didn't deliver on the softer schedules, but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison overall.

Back in the early days of Fleck ball, the scheme was as conservative as it is now, but his teams showed up for the majority of the games they played. I'd argue that this year, they showed up for only 2 of the 10 games we've played. We have a few injuries this year, notably DT, but nowhere near the catastrphic injury lists on some of the teams in the B1G this year.
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I’m sorry this happened to You and hope You can emotionally recover

You’re right. Mason played 8/10 big ten opponents every year. Some years he would only play 2 of the top 5 teams in the big ten such as 1999.

It’s not apples to apples. You’re right. So I guess no comparisons can be made.
 

Some guy said:
I’m sorry this happened to You and hope You can emotionally recover

You’re right. Mason played 8/10 big ten opponents every year. Some years he would only play 2 of the top 5 teams in the big ten such as 1999.

It’s not apples to apples. You’re right. So I guess no comparisons can be made.
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I'll be just fine, thanks. I'm of a generation in which I can point out my thoughts and disagree with someone without curling up in a ball in the corner if I don't get my way.

As I've said many times before, PJ has more wins against ranked opponents in the B1G than Mason did in the same amount of time (80 games for Mason, 81 for Fleck in two weeks), but lost a higher percentage of games to unranked teams. He also played an average of 1.1 fewer ranked B1G teams per year over more weeks (and with more byes).

I also see the difference from Mason taking over an actual dumpster fire of a program (and to a lesser extent, Kill did the same) vs. Fleck creating a narrative that he took over a dumpster fire.

Fleck has taken the program to a more stable place with the resources that the U finally put into place after burning through Mason (to help get the new stadium) and Kill (to get the athletes' village). I think the Admin is doing the same thing to Fleck they did to Mason and Kill with a weak AD (PJ is the face of the U since Coyle seems not to be able to communicate at all), but I think a better actual football coach would have better results than Fleck has gotten because Fleck is not an X's and O's guy and doesn't have the support he needs at the coordinator level to be successful.

Overall, I think the Mason, Kill, and Fleck eras are very similar in results. If you insist that Fleck is better, that doesn't bother me, but I disagree.

If you say he's by far the best coach, I completely disagree and have no problem saying so. Doesn't mean I don't recognize what Fleck has accomplished. It means I do.

One idea that was tossed out earlier this week (or was it earlier than that?) was to make PJ the AD. I think that would be a better role for him and would be a difference-maker for coaches in the future. As ridiculous as he can be, I think he's well-suited to lead the University of Minnesota in that role.
 

caliGopher said:
I'll be just fine, thanks. I'm of a generation in which I can point out my thoughts and disagree with someone without curling up in a ball in the corner if I don't get my way.

As I've said many times before, PJ has more wins against ranked opponents in the B1G than Mason did in the same amount of time (80 games for Mason, 81 for Fleck in two weeks), but lost a higher percentage of games to unranked teams. He also played an average of 1.1 fewer ranked B1G teams per year over more weeks (and with more byes).

I also see the difference from Mason taking over an actual dumpster fire of a program (and to a lesser extent, Kill did the same) vs. Fleck creating a narrative that he took over a dumpster fire.

Fleck has taken the program to a more stable place with the resources that the U finally put into place after burning through Mason (to help get the new stadium) and Kill (to get the athletes' village). I think the Admin is doing the same thing to Fleck they did to Mason and Kill with a weak AD (PJ is the face of the U since Coyle seems not to be able to communicate at all), but I think a better actual football coach would have better results than Fleck has gotten because Fleck is not an X's and O's guy and doesn't have the support he needs at the coordinator level to be successful.

Overall, I think the Mason, Kill, and Fleck eras are very similar in results. If you insist that Fleck is better, that doesn't bother me, but I disagree.

If you say he's by far the best coach, I completely disagree and have no problem saying so. Doesn't mean I don't recognize what Fleck has accomplished. It means I do.

One idea that was tossed out earlier this week (or was it earlier than that?) was to make PJ the AD. I think that would be a better role for him and would be a difference-maker for coaches in the future. As ridiculous as he can be, I think he's well-suited to lead the University of Minnesota in that role.
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I'd rank them:
PJ
Mason
Kill

And not much separation between any of them. I'd agree Mase had some tougher schedules, but he also played total cupcakes for preseason games. Fleck has a better B10 record, and you can't control who you play in the B10.

I do think it would have been interesting if Mase had the same stadium situation and support that PJ has, I believe he had less.
 
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gopherbadgerman said:
I'd rank them:
PJ
Mason
Kill

And not much separation between any of them. I'd agree Mase had some tougher schedules, but he also played total cupcakes for preseason games. Fleck has a better B10 record, and you can't control who you play in the B10.

I do think it would have been interesting if Mase had the same stadium situation and support that PJ has, I believe he had less.
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Agree with your ranking.

As for Mason's NC schedules, that's why I only look at B1G games when comparing Mason and PJ.
 

caliGopher said:
I'll be just fine, thanks. I'm of a generation in which I can point out my thoughts and disagree with someone without curling up in a ball in the corner if I don't get my way.

As I've said many times before, PJ has more wins against ranked opponents in the B1G than Mason did in the same amount of time (80 games for Mason, 81 for Fleck in two weeks), but lost a higher percentage of games to unranked teams. He also played an average of 1.1 fewer ranked B1G teams per year over more weeks (and with more byes).

I also see the difference from Mason taking over an actual dumpster fire of a program (and to a lesser extent, Kill did the same) vs. Fleck creating a narrative that he took over a dumpster fire.

Fleck has taken the program to a more stable place with the resources that the U finally put into place after burning through Mason (to help get the new stadium) and Kill (to get the athletes' village). I think the Admin is doing the same thing to Fleck they did to Mason and Kill with a weak AD (PJ is the face of the U since Coyle seems not to be able to communicate at all), but I think a better actual football coach would have better results than Fleck has gotten because Fleck is not an X's and O's guy and doesn't have the support he needs at the coordinator level to be successful.

Overall, I think the Mason, Kill, and Fleck eras are very similar in results. If you insist that Fleck is better, that doesn't bother me, but I disagree.

If you say he's by far the best coach, I completely disagree and have no problem saying so. Doesn't mean I don't recognize what Fleck has accomplished. It means I do.

One idea that was tossed out earlier this week (or was it earlier than that?) was to make PJ the AD. I think that would be a better role for him and would be a difference-maker for coaches in the future. As ridiculous as he can be, I think he's well-suited to lead the University of Minnesota in that role.
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lol

Fleck is no better than Mason or kill but he should be the AD?

Got it
 

imthewalrus said:
The Vikings started playing in town in 1961. The Lakers (with their prize draftee, Elgin Baylor)! bagged a$$ for LA. Their last season in Minneapolis was the 1959-1960 season. Calvin G. had turnred the old Washington Senators into the new Minnesota Twins too and 1961 was their first year. That is a large part of what changed.

I was 13 years old that year that the Lakers left! Changes…lots of changes and Gopher Football was unseated. But there was one last hurrah! Rosebowl1 and Rosebowl 2.

The U of M went to the Rosebowl Game January 1,1961 and lost to U of Washington. The next year, Ohio State won the Big Ten chamionship and the U of M finished second. However, the powers that dictated the Buckeyes future at that time, voted to NOT accept the Rose bowl invitation. So, the U of M accepted and the team beat UCLA.

And one of the things bantered about in the battle that went on at Ohio State questioned whether there was too much emphasis on athletics? I somehow don’t think that concept made too much of a lasting impact on very many of the movers and shakers around good old tOSU or in the Horseshoe. Woody Hayes and his group pretty much made sure of that. And woody’s old player, at Miami of Ohio, Bo Schembeckler & Woody battled on for so long making sure that THE GAME was the total emphasis of sports in Michigan and Ohio. They ushered in the concept of the big two and little eight in the Big Ten.

Since then: if you are a real Gopher Big Ten football who Loves Big Ten football could you ask for more? Otherwise you may spend too much time feeling sorry for yourself and always want to fire some coach or be looking for some one to play mr money bags to do what you think should be done in the athletic department…You know that for most of the universities in the conference it is the rivalries, traditions and the excitement going on campus, the sights and sounds.

Who in their right mind would ever bet on the outcome of a football game?

Good luck people.

Beat the Widcat, Gopher. Win the game in that crazy old baseball stadium on Saturday! and have fun fans!
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Nice word salad.
The Twins and Vikings coming to town had no bearing whatsoever on decisions made as to how to run the University. They are completely different issues.

You could say that it provided some competiton to the Gophers as far as sports fans choosing where to spend their dollars, but other than that, it's meaningless.

And the NBA was a complete afterthought in 1961. To be fair, the NFL wasn't close to what it is now either.
 

disco said:
Nice word salad.
The Twins and Vikings coming to town had no bearing whatsoever on decisions made as to how to run the University. They are completely different issues.

You could say that it provided some competiton to the Gophers as far as sports fans choosing where to spend their dollars, but other than that, it's meaningless.

And the NBA was a complete afterthought in 1961. To be fair, the NFL wasn't close to what it is now either.
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Competition to the Gopher football program for sports fans was everything back then. The only revenue the Goher team brought in was from ticket sales for fans butts in the seats of the Brick House and concessions sales. In those days, college games were. broadcast on radio stations. In 1960, the only Gopher game I saw on tv was the MN/Iowa game late in the season. They were ranked # 1 & #2 in the nation. MN blew the Hawkeyes out. There were less college games then. they used to have an 8 game season. It expanded some eventually, but ticket sales provided the only income for the University, which was, after all an academic institution. There was no revenue sharing from the conference or from tv money.

So, the NFL and MLB competition hit right where it hurt: in the pocketbook. Baseball season overlapped the college football season and provided companion for interest from sports fans.

And the NFL televised their games. Why pay money to buy tickets to Saturday games when hard working folks who worked many Saturday afternoons could watch for free on Sundays? More competition for customers for the state college team. The Twin Cities metro area wasn’t nearly as large back then either. More competition for ticket buyers.

And: the NFL has been winning turf wars for a long time. No surprise there. That is exactly why the arrival of the NF L was a huge thing back in 1961. Nothing more…nothing less. Millionaire owners really were good competition to the state university as far as marketing went. And the NFL did know how to sell free televised games to the public!

Yes, the Lakers kind of bombed here and headed west after winning here. But that was a kind of shock. The University never threatened to leave. It seemed as though it was a relief that the new viking franchise was coming to replace the Lakers here. Same with the twins! But how many times over their history here in Minnesota have the Vikings and Twins threatened to leave. Norm Green sucks chants gave more meaning to the threats of the Twins and the Vikings. The U of M still has never threatened to pull up stakes and leave…so there is that. The U of M is still our state University and NOT just a sports franchise owner. There are more important things for the U of M to do than run a football program.
 
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