Fire Coyle, Fire Fleck! Rip the Band-Aid off!!!

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Cobra said:
When I first heard about Collins becoming our new DC, I thought it was sold as a "cool story", but it reeks of cheapest most desperate candidate available. Why wouldn't Fleck take some cash from his own contract and grease the skids for a proven experienced DC?
Collins career arc is a cool story, and I have nothing against him, but it's a cheep bastid blue light special and hope for the best!
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Poster child for the Fleck era. Cool story. Long on character, short on results.
 

mngolf said:
I don't mind any debate or criticism of Fleck. I don't understand people not seeing that he gets the most he can out of what he has.

Playing the style he does allows for consistently better overall seasons, but also allows for bad individual losses. People ask for him to have a Norm Parker, like those grow on trees.
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I don't understand why people who claim he gets so much more ignore the numbers behind his record, but i've given up on that. It's not going to change because it's germane to the belief that Fleck isn't just Mason with more resources, easier schedules, a shit ton of mantras, and shorter pants.

Playing in the west for the first seven years of his tenure absolutely inflated his record. When comparing him to All of the coaches since Warmath.

I haven't said he should hire Norm Parker or Phil Parker.

I don't believe he has the budget to hire a top flight established DC. That's something he should discuss with Coyle.

All reports are he did not hire at or near his budget, he hired Danny Collins. A good story that may be a good DC some day but did not have the experience to be hired as a DC in the B1G.

Somewhere in between Danny Collins and Phil Parker is a DC in the G5 conferences or even a former HC in the lower levels that might have been a better choice. It probably wasn't Norm Parker. No guarantees it would have worked, but a better chance that it woukd have worked out. Like Joe Rossi who had been a DC in the FCS and at Rutger's before getting the interim tag after Fleck other disastrous hire, Robb Smith.

Corey Hetherman was the kind of hire Fleck should have looked for. OC/DC at previous stops. Collins has only coached for Fleck and never had a coordinator role before.

He might try expanding his pool outside of people he's already coached with to try and mix things up, but that's just crazy talk.
 

btowngopher said:
I’m guessing the vast majority of teams have multiple games every year where they look bad for long stretches. Hard to claim it’s an effort issue.
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If you've watched this season unfold and think there's nothing wrong with the performance of the team being a mess on the road and not much less of a mess at home aside from the Nebraska game and the second half of the Rutger's game, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
 


caliGopher said:
I don't understand why people who claim he gets so much more ignore the numbers behind his record, but i've given up on that. It's not going to change because it's germane to the belief that Fleck isn't just Mason with more resources, easier schedules, a shit ton of mantras, and shorter pants.

Playing in the west for the first seven years of his tenure absolutely inflated his record. When comparing him to All of the coaches since Warmath.

I haven't said he should hire Norm Parker or Phil Parker.

I don't believe he has the budget to hire a top flight established DC. That's something he should discuss with Coyle.

All reports are he did not hire at or near his budget, he hired Danny Collins. A good story that may be a good DC some day but did not have the experience to be hired as a DC in the B1G.

Somewhere in between Danny Collins and Phil Parker is a DC in the G5 conferences or even a former HC in the lower levels that might have been a better choice. It probably wasn't Norm Parker. No guarantees it would have worked, but a better chance that it woukd have worked out. Like Joe Rossi who had been a DC in the FCS and at Rutger's before getting the interim tag after Fleck other disastrous hire, Robb Smith.

Corey Hetherman was the kind of hire Fleck should have looked for. OC/DC at previous stops. Collins has only coached for Fleck and never had a coordinator role before.

He might try expanding his pool outside of people he's already coached with to try and mix things up, but that's just crazy talk.
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I'm sure Fleck would love to pad his record by taking off a big ten east cross over and adding SE Central Louisiana Monroe Tech or the Hellen Keller institute of the dumb death and retarded like Mason did
 



caliGopher said:
Ok so you explained the Ohio State and Oregon games. Am I to believe that Iowa is paying for players at that level as well?

And if it's because the other teams are paying so much money for their players, how do you explain the same approach in years 1-7, when players weren't being paid (legally anyway, or were on $EC teams)?
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Not on that level but they spend $3 million more on their assistant coaching staff than we do, so if they have that kind of money it's pretty good bet they are in better shape NIL wise than we are. I suppose you can keep burying your head in the sand. NIL has also existed since year five as have the new portal rules, you can't even keep the facts of your own stance straight
 





BarnBurner said:
Funding athletics at a level that will allow Mn to compete with Oregon in football, for example.

Compare and contrast Mn and Oregon players and coaching.
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To be clear, the University of Oregon is probably funding players at a level no more than the University of Minnesota is. Perhaps even less. The big money for Oregon players is coming from outside the University system. No one expects the University of Minnesota Regents to dig into the school’s educational coffers to try to match the tens of millions in NIL money that Phil Knight is paying Ducks’ players (or that Mark Cuban is kicking in to Indiana NIL). At most, the University could up coordinator salaries to be competitive, and bound fund more coaching positions—and I believe thus would make some difference. But finding significantly more NIL money to pay players is ultimately up to the alumni and friends of the University—like you!
 

The Deliberate Stranger said:
I'm sure Fleck would love to pad his record by taking off a big ten east cross over and adding SE Central Louisiana Monroe Tech or the Hellen Keller institute of the dumb death and retarded like Mason did
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Take a look at their conference only records. At the end of this season, Fleck will have coached one more B1G game in 9 years than Mason did. Assuming we beat both Northwestern and Wisconsin:

In 80 games, Mason coached against 32 ranked teams. in 81 Games, Fleck coached against 22 ranked teams.

If you apply Mason's winning percentage against unranked opponents to the same number of unranked opponents Fleck coached against, he'd have ended wih 38 B1G wins to Fleck's 40 (assuming we beat Northwestern and Wisconsin).

If you apply Fleck's winning percentage against Ranked teams to the same Number of ranked teams as Mason, his win total against ranked teams would increase by 3, but his overall win total would decrease by 3 since he won 6 against the non ranked oppoenents that replaced so Fleck would win that 37 - 32 (again assuming we beat Northwestern and Wisconsin).

So, yeah, Fleck has a slightly better record in the B1G over 80/81 games, when adjusting apples to apples. That doesn't account for playing games in the metrodome which hurt recruiting. The athletes village, and more dollars available to the team becasue of the TV contracts in place during Fleck's tenure.

I'm not saying Fleck sucks, but the numbers don't scream significant difference in actual on field results. While Fleck does have a higher winning percentage against ranked teams, his winning percentage against unranked teams is lower than Guteknust (-26%), Clayes (-11%), Kill (-6%), and Mason (-4%) while playing 4% - 13% fewer games against ranked opponents. That also can't be overlooked.

But if you can look at that and still claim Fleck is a far superior program leader. Go for it.
 
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Accepting mediocrity is a choice, for everyone involved.

I’m calling BS on this is what we get, say lah vee, it’s impossible to change, woe is me, can’t do any better, because of any reason you can come up with.

I have higher expectations than that, plain and simple.
The right choices need to be made.
 

caliGopher said:
If you've watched this season unfold and think there's nothing wrong with the performance of the team being a mess on the road and not much less of a mess at home aside from the Nebraska game and the second half of the Rutger's game, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Just saying I don’t think it’s a lack of effort.
 



Cobra said:
Accepting mediocrity is a choice, for everyone involved.

I’m calling BS on this is what we get, say lah vee, it’s impossible to change, woe is me, can’t do any better, because of any reason you can come up with.

I have higher expectations than that, plain and simple.
The right choices need to be made.
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I'm terms of reality, this is what we get. Unless you're a multimillionaire dumping money into DTA, you're just another swinging dick like the rest of us on Gopherhole giving an opinion that no one with any power or authority will ever give two shits about. If you want change, do something about it, not sit on a message board huffing and puffing about how this is unacceptable.
 

The Deliberate Stranger said:
We also weren't winning six games and getting denied either. So the fewer bowl game isn't really relevant and yes it tends to be harder when you hire shitty coaches like Wacker who had a shitty tenure at TCU and expect him to not be shitty
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Six or seven or eight posts on this one thread and for the most part, they are all nonsense.
 

Gophergrandpa said:
To be clear, the University of Oregon is probably funding players at a level no more than the University of Minnesota is. Perhaps even less. The big money for Oregon players is coming from outside the University system. No one expects the University of Minnesota Regents to dig into the school’s educational coffers to try to match the tens of millions in NIL money that Phil Knight is paying Ducks’ players (or that Mark Cuban is kicking in to Indiana NIL). At most, the University could up coordinator salaries to be competitive, and bound fund more coaching positions—and I believe thus would make some difference. But finding significantly more NIL money to pay players is ultimately up to the alumni and friends of the University—like you!
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It's Coyles job to make it happen.
 



caliGopher said:
Take a look at their conference only records. At the end of this season, Fleck will have coached one more B1G game in 9 years than Mason did. Assuming we beat both Northwestern and Wisconsin:

In 80 games, Mason coached against 32 ranked teams. in 81 Games, Fleck coached against 22 ranked teams.

If you apply Mason's winning percentage against unranked opponents to the same number of unranked opponents Fleck coached against, he'd have ended wih 38 B1G wins to Fleck's 40 (assuming we beat Northwestern and Wisconsin).

If you apply Fleck's winning percentage against Ranked teams to the same Number of ranked teams as Mason, his win total against ranked teams would increase by 3, but his overall win total would decrease by 3 since he won 6 against the non ranked oppoenents that replaced so Fleck would win that 37 - 32 (again assuming we beat Northwestern and Wisconsin).

So, yeah, Fleck has a slightly better record in the B1G over 80/81 games, when adjusting apples to apples. That doesn't account for playing games in the metrodome which hurt recruiting. The athletes village, and more dollars available to the team becasue of the TV contracts in place during Fleck's tenure.

I'm not saying Fleck sucks, but the numbers don't scream significant difference in actual on field results. While Fleck does have a higher winning percentage against ranked teams, his winning percentage against unranked teams is lower than Guteknust (-26%), Clayes (-11%), Kill (-6%), and Mason (-4%) while playing 4% - 13% fewer games against ranked opponents. That also can't be overlooked.

But if you can look at that and still claim Fleck is a far superior program leader. Go for it.
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Anyway you slice it Fleck is far superior, win percentages tell the tale. Mason was 32-48, Fleck will be somewhere between 40-39 or at worst 38-41 it's not even close. Clearly math his hard for you. I'm sure Fleck would love shave a loss off his record every year and a buy game like Mason did
 


The Deliberate Stranger said:
Anyway you slice it Fleck is far superior, win percentages tell the tale. Mason was 32-48, Fleck will be somewhere between 40-39 or at worst 38-41 it's not even close. Clearly math his hard for you. I'm sure Fleck would love shave a loss off his record every year and a buy game like Mason did
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PJ payed Bowling Green an extra $475,000 this year to move our game back to ‘28 and replaced them with one of the worst FCS programs in the country.
 

btowngopher said:
Just saying I don’t think it’s a lack of effort.
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Never said no one was trying. But just because you really want to and you really work hard, doesn't change the results.

As we saw in the Nebraska game, this team is much better than it's performance on the field in every other game. DT's inablity to stay healthy isn't something that can't be overlooked. He is our best player, but we should not be in a situation that one player means we can play well or not in year 9.

If this year was an outlier, I would buy into your argument more, but it's a part of a trend. We are were we are. Everyone wants to be better, but we're not making progress on that front. We'll see where this recruiting class ends up, and see what next season brings.

PJ's not going anywhere, so he'll have time to figure it out, or demonstrate he's reached his ceiling here.
 

The Deliberate Stranger said:
Anyway you slice it Fleck is far superior, win percentages tell the tale. Mason was 32-48, Fleck will be somewhere between 40-39 or at worst 38-41 it's not even close. Clearly math his hard for you. I'm sure Fleck would love shave a loss off his record every year and a buy game like Mason did
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Eyeball test on game day. Head to head I like Mason‘s squads.
 




The Deliberate Stranger said:
Lol I would love to watch Drake or Max throws screens over and over again to Darius Taylor and not have grinning glen do a damn thing about it
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Oh, no not the screens they strike fear in everyone. PJ has gone to hell post Mo — hung in there last year with an outstanding portal QB pick up and all Mason did was roll out backs that carried the freight and showed up every week and solid to great OL play. They’d score at will. I take no pleasure in that the present is what matters.
 

It’s really disturbing that the majority of Gophers fans are fine with Fleck as long as he leads the team to a low-tier bowl game most years.

If Iowa’s coach were 1-8 against Minnesota, Iowa’s fans would be calling for his head.
If Iowa’s coach lost to Bowling Green, Iowa’s fans would be calling for his head.
If Iowa’s coach recruited in the bottom half of the Big 10 year after year, Iowa’s fans would be calling for his head.
If Iowa’s head coach’s teams’ got worse each year after his predecessors recruits graduated, Iowa’s fans would be calling for his head.

You want to know why we lose to Iowa by 40 points? Because Iowa has an expectation of winning. Comments on this thread show that most of my fellow fans have no such expectations — despite Fleck’s millions of dollars, they are happy with his “at least both teams had fun” moral victory nonsense.
 

MZBKA1 said:
It’s really disturbing that the majority of Gophers fans are fine with Fleck as long as he leads the team to a low-tier bowl game most years.

If Iowa’s coach were 1-8 against Minnesota, Iowa’s fans would be calling for his head.
If Iowa’s coach lost to Bowling Green, Iowa’s fans would be calling for his head.
If Iowa’s coach recruited in the bottom half of the Big 10 year after year, Iowa’s fans would be calling for his head.
If Iowa’s head coach’s teams’ got worse each year after his predecessors recruits graduated, Iowa’s fans would be calling for his head.

You want to know why we lose to Iowa by 40 points? Because Iowa has an expectation of winning. Comments on this thread show that most of my fellow fans have no such expectations — despite Fleck’s millions of dollars, they are happy with his “at least both teams had fun” moral victory nonsense.
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Ferentz lost a home game to a MAC team in 2013.

He lost a home game to an FCS team in 2016.

He’s lost three of the last four meetings with the cross-state rival, including both of the most recent home match-ups.

My God, why does he still have a job?
 


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