Could TCF mark the start of a new era in college football?

[Goldmember]

There were a lot of people that wanted to see the U of M fully-integrated into downtown Minneapolis in the 70's and 80's when downtown-regentrification was the hot trend. The move of football to the Metrodome was part of this process.

But this plan was a total failure; teenagers hated it. Minnesota students started making bewildering out-of-state college choices based on "atmosphere" that made no sense by any other measurement. Madision and Boulder attracted a ton of Minnesota students, and no one at the U ever saw the Metrodome as their own.

The U has been restoring its traditional college-campus atmosphere over the last 10-15 years. I think TCF Bank (despite its smaller size) will be among the most impressive facilities on college campuses.

I think TCF Bank could become the Oriole Park at Camden Yards of college football. That field marked the return of baseball to urban neighborhoods after decades of relocations to larger, stale, suburban stadiums. The runaway growth of capacity is the college football equivalent.

Afterall, who cares if 100,000 or 50,000 people watch a game in person? Especially as more and more games are on television, delivering a satisfactory experience to the fan on-site is more important than accummulating the largest mass of human beings possible.

This trend towards smaller capacity, better on-site fan experiences may already be starting elsewhere ... Look here.

 

[Goldy74s]

TCF could have been, should have been, an opportunity for a new start. A required element of that vision was that the program be engineered in such a way that the team and program would "peak" for that first season. People, contrary to my advice, decided that was either not important or that it could be best achieved by changing the coach at huge expense in both coin and reputation.

How next season plays out will be decided at that time. If we field a weak or disorganized team, a great opportunity to place a different personality to our program will have been wasted. I think, the best opportunity we have had in several years.

 

[MRJ]

TCF could have been, should have been, an opportunity for a new start. A required element of that vision was that the program be engineered in such a way that the team and program would "peak" for that first season. People, contrary to my advice, decided that was either not important or that it could be best achieved by changing the coach at huge expense in both coin and reputation.

How next season plays out will be decided at that time. If we field a weak or disorganized team, a great opportunity to place a different personality to our program will have been wasted. I think, the best opportunity we have had in several years.

I'm pretty sure Mason wouldn't have had us "peaking" at the time we entered the new stadium. He already had us "weak" and "disorganized" before Brewster ever came on board. Also, You're talking as if this is already some kind of failed experiment. Umm, pretty sure that next year is still next year at this point. Nothing has happened yet in terms of where the team is or what kind of opportunities will be presented. So can we please stop with the "I told you so" before we even get into next year please???

 

[mkAz]

TCF could have been, should have been, an opportunity for a new start. A required element of that vision was that the program be engineered in such a way that the team and program would "peak" for that first season. People, contrary to my advice, decided that was either not important or that it could be best achieved by changing the coach at huge expense in both coin and reputation.

What exactly was your advice? Sticking it out with Mason?

 

[UpnorthGo4]

You are wrong, Goldmember. The "new era" for Gopher football started when Mason was fired and Tim Brewster was hired. Brewster has shown us that it is possible to recruit high quality players from the football hot beds in Texas, Florida, and California. The new Gopher Stadium is going to make it easier to keep top Minnesota players and recruit out of state players. Gopher fans will never again be satisfied with Ohio State and Michigan leftovers. Whether or not Brewster remains at the U when his contract expires, the future of Gopher football is very bright because of him.

 

[Goldy74s]

MRJ, being a tad defensive? If "next year is yet to be played" is true, is it not also true that next year has yet to be played?

But, you are correct that if next year turns out to be a mess there will be those who will point out that it has, indeed, been made into a mess. That is just the way life works when people make decisions that turn out to be thunderously wrong headed even in the face of rational, less emotional, advice to the contrary.

 

[RodentRampage]

MRJ, being a tad defensive? If "next year is yet to be played" is true, is it not also true that next year has yet to be played?

But, you are correct that if next year turns out to be a mess there will be those who will point out that it has, indeed, been made into a mess. That is just the way life works when people make decisions that turn out to be thunderously wrong headed even in the face of rational, less emotional, advice to the contrary.

You're the one who is talking as if next year has already been played. Is there any evidence that the Gophers would be peaking if Mason had not been fired? The Gophers had been in steady decline since 2003. Where's your rational evidence?

 

[MRJ]

MRJ, being a tad defensive? If "next year is yet to be played" is true, is it not also true that next year has yet to be played?

But, you are correct that if next year turns out to be a mess there will be those who will point out that it has, indeed, been made into a mess. That is just the way life works when people make decisions that turn out to be thunderously wrong headed even in the face of rational, less emotional, advice to the contrary.

To answer your question: No, I'm not being defensive. You are. You brought up entering the new stadium like it is already some kind of wasted opportunity when the fact is, neither you nor I are in any position to claim it as a failure. We simply don't know yet, but the fact that you are already bringing up the point makes it seem that you have already termed it a failure before even one game has been played in the new digs.

If it does turn to be a mess, then yes, we will something to talk about. But putting the cart before the horse doesn't do any good and I got the impression that was where you were heading with your original comment. If that's not where you were going, than I apologize. If that is where you were heading with your first comment, then I stand by what I said.

 

[mnboiler]

Goldmember, I don't think you are going to see alot of new major college football stadiums built, if that what's you are meaning. That is simply due to the fact that these old stadiums are National Landmarks and have a ton of tradition in them. Imagine of O$U decides to tear down Ohio Stadium? Fans would go insane. So you won't see a whole lot of new college football stadiums.

Now renovations you are going to see a ton of. Since that article was publish Alabama has decided to increase seat AGAIN with a addition to the north end zone. It will be the same as the south end zone and push the seat north of 100 thousand I believe. I believe we are at a point were alot of the major college football stadiums have maxed out there number of seats. Take Tennesse after they are done in 2010 where are they going to be able to add more seats? Same with Michigan when they are done or OSU, were can you put an extra 10000 seats? The answer is simple, no where. Now some stadiums still have potenial for future growth like Texas. The trend you are going to see is that athletic departments are going to end up REDUCING the number of seats for more "premium seats". (I won't get into my opinion on that unless asked, because that would take its own thread.)

So TCF isn't a trend setting stadium in college football by any means but what you are going to see is more club seats and box suites and a reduction in the number of seats.

 

[grunkiejr]

I'm pretty sure Mason wouldn't have had us "peaking" at the time we entered the new stadium. He already had us "weak" and "disorganized" before Brewster ever came on board. Also, You're talking as if this is already some kind of failed experiment. Umm, pretty sure that next year is still next year at this point. Nothing has happened yet in terms of where the team is or what kind of opportunities will be presented. So can we please stop with the "I told you so" before we even get into next year please???

+1

 

[grunkiejr]

The trend you are going to see is that athletic departments are going to end up REDUCING the number of seats for more "premium seats". (I won't get into my opinion on that unless asked, because that would take its own thread.)

mnboiler, I'm pretty sure I know where you're going with that and I'll just say I agree. One of the great things about college football is that is not a professional sport. The atmosphere is much different (better) because you have fans that actually care about the game and stand and yell instead of sitting on their hands and only clapping when music is piped in encouraging them to cheer (more of an NBA problem than NFL). Profit making endeavors in the NFL seem to be at the expense of the blue collar fan that lives and dies with the team and cheers much more loudly than people in corporate suites.

 

[Goldmember]

You are wrong, Goldmember. The "new era" for Gopher football started when Mason was fired and Tim Brewster was hired.

No idea how this thread got hijacked by people wanting to have another Mason vs. Brewster debate -- nothing to do with the orginal post.

The point is: work on stadiums is now focusing more on delivering a decent experience to the fans who show-up, and less on assembling the largest mob possible. This is a huge shift in collge football. For decades, home stadium capacity was the #1 concern and usually cited as the #1 indicator of a program's prominence.

I think improved television (200 channels, HD, etc.) is starting to change this. I also think it benefits teams in major media markets (Minnesota) and larger schools (Minnesota) with more alumni (Minnesota).

I don't expect Michigan Stadium to be torn-down and replaced with a nicer, 60,000 seat stadium. But I think that having a live crowd of 100,000 will be much less of a competeive advantage in the future than it had been in the past.

CBS SportsLine.com's Dennis Dodd on Michigan Stadium: "Surprisingly mellow for a crib that draws 100,000-plus."

He goes on to praise the atmoshphere of three stadiums that are smaller than 55,000.

 

[WAGopher]

CBS SportsLine.com's Dennis Dodd on Michigan Stadium: "Surprisingly mellow for a crib that draws 100,000-plus."

He goes on to praise the atmoshphere of three stadiums that are smaller than 55,000.

Michigan Stadium is relatively quiet for a 100,000 plus seat stadium because of its shape. It's a shallow bowl without a second deck, like our Memorial Stadium was. There aren't many barriers to keep the sound inside these types of stadiums. Compare that to similarly sized Ohio Stadium with its steeper sides and a second deck where it's much louder from the same size crowd. TCF Bank stadium will be louder than Michigan, but probably not as loud as Ohio State because Ohio Stadium has pretty much closed in the open end of the stadium (they'll also have twice the capacity).

 

[GoBigGold]

something catastrophic like Bird Flu wiping out 1/3 of the american pop. would quash the attendence at sporting events.

 

[tjgopher]

The point is: work on stadiums is now focusing more on delivering a decent experience to the fans who show-up, and less on assembling the largest mob possible. This is a huge shift in collge football. For decades, home stadium capacity was the #1 concern and usually cited as the #1 indicator of a program's prominence.

I would add three things to the discussion:

1) I don't think there will be a lot of new on-campus stadiums built. The ones that are there are there and they will remain there for years and years.

2) The current existing facilities are being renovated. Those renovations many times result in fewer seats - not because the ADs are concerned with fan experience - but instead because they are building space-eating luxury sky boxes and suites. They take up much more room per person, but also return much more revenue. So, I wouldn't be so quick to say the ADs lone concern is fan experience. It is still about producing revenue.

3) Many of the "premiere" programs still add seats. Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Tennessee, Alabama all have added seats in recent years. I know your linked article showed TN reducing seats, but that comes after multiple seat expansion projects in that stadium.

So, to answer your question - no - I don't think TCF Bank Stadium will set up a new shift or trend in college football. You'll see the trend be much more of what they have done at Purdue, Iowa, Missouri, Ohio State, Tennessee, etc., and that is upgrade and renovate their existing stadium with more luxury boxes and suites, locker rooms, etc.

 

[GoAUpher]

Michigan Stadium is relatively quiet for a 100,000 plus seat stadium because of its shape. It's a shallow bowl without a second deck, like our Memorial Stadium was. There aren't many barriers to keep the sound inside these types of stadiums. Compare that to similarly sized Ohio Stadium with its steeper sides and a second deck where it's much louder from the same size crowd. TCF Bank stadium will be louder than Michigan, but probably not as loud as Ohio State because Ohio Stadium has pretty much closed in the open end of the stadium (they'll also have twice the capacity).

Its also important to note that the renovations to Michigan Stadium will likely make the stadium much louder as it funnels the sound back down to the field.

 

[GoAUpher]

Goldmember, I don't think you are going to see alot of new major college football stadiums built, if that what's you are meaning. That is simply due to the fact that these old stadiums are National Landmarks and have a ton of tradition in them. Imagine of O$U decides to tear down Ohio Stadium? Fans would go insane. So you won't see a whole lot of new college football stadiums.

Another important factor...$$$ and space. For example, OSU would have room to build a new Ohio Stadium but the cost would likely come in at the 600 million plus range (conservatively). No public university is going to pay that kind of dough when they have a serviceable/good location already. Additionally, most schools wouldn't have space on campus to put the new stadium. I think history is the most important factor but I will never discount the power of the dollar in driving decisions.

 

[mnboiler]

Yes both WAGopher and GoAUpher have it right about Michigan Stadium. It is basically a giant bowl and the bottom it is quite level, although it becomes steeper the higher up you go. Also a smal press box allowed alot of extra sound to escape. This overall leads to a huge open space. This allowed all the noise created to basically go straight up and escape out the top. That easily made the Big House the quitest stadium per capita in the nation.

Oregon is on the other end of the spectrum. First of all the raise is fairly steep from row to row, then looking at one side line is full length press box and on the other is a HUGE overhang with also kept sound in. All these factors added up to the point that it was roughly the the loudest stadium per capita.

It will be interesting on how the noise level changes in Michigan Stadium when the expanision is done. It will be much louder. The way to think about it it that if you have 100 people yell for 30 second in an open space it will reach say 30 decibels. Now if you put them in a box surrounded by hard material(metal, concrete, etc.) it will reach say 50 decibals.

Looking at TCF it will be hard to say how noise will react until you get a full crowd at a game. Being a U will allow sound to leave the open end but the scoreboard will retain some sound. The pressbox is also relatively low profile(what I really like) but without the third deck there will be extra sound leaving the top. I know the athletic department said it was designed to sound like a 100 thousand but when you get people in the stadium the acoustics will be different than if it was empty.

 

[Bayfieldgopher]

Goldmember. Loons MO during his past stint on the Hole was to highjack and dominate threads with his poison and off based remarks. Somehow the Hole let the guy back in after he was evicted from the Hole and other message boards.

Mason's program peaked in 2003 and it was on a downhill slide from that point on. That's why he was fired Loon. And rightly so.

To have the program peak under Masonball in 09 was Loons ultimate pipe dream and likely would have been a very sensual experience for the Canuck. He forgot how inept Mason has been at recruiting and how bare the shelf was when he left during the start of another self-admited rebuilding process. Impressive!

Loon can't wait for the opportunity to shout "I told you so". In the meantime, he will tell those on the Hole how we have ruined his program and has already decided Brewstball will fail miserably.
Maybe so but maybe not.

 

[mnboiler]

I realized my post on noise levels and my discription of the stadiums might be a little vague so I have some pictures of the stadium I referenced.


Autzen Stadium Home of the Ducks

The Big House Pre-renovation

The Big House Post-Renovation. I realize that it is a rendering and not final but it does give you some idea of what Michigan is doing.

 

[Goldy74s]

IMHO Ohio Stadium is much the better site. However, all BT stadia illustrate the price war that we are in. While others are building on "stage 3" type renovations to their places we are building our excellent "stage 1" stadium. Good.

Interestingly, IU is adding on a big addition they have certainly not needed for either game I have attended there. Perhaps they are making the mistake of building seating for Purdue, etc.

Time will tell, but perhaps they will need to "get the black out!" someday soon.

 

[KD6-3.7]

However, all BT stadia .

what are we in rome?

 

[GoAUpher]

Interestingly, IU is adding on a big addition they have certainly not needed for either game I have attended there. Perhaps they are making the mistake of building seating for Purdue, etc.

I never understood the justification for this either...

 

[Maximus]

I don't expect Michigan Stadium to be torn-down and replaced with a nicer, 60,000 seat stadium. But I think that having a live crowd of 100,000 will be much less of a competeive advantage in the future than it had been in the past.

Unfortunately that will never be the case. Division I Universities....Oregon and Oklahoma State, notwithstanding....do not have billionaire owners. Using crude math....At 50 bucks a ticket, Minnesota will make 2.5 million for one home game (throw in parking, concessions, etc.)....Michigan will make roughly 5 million (with more from parking and concessions, etc.). In the end, they'll probably make 3 or 4 times what Minnesota makes in what one game. Multiply that by seven home games and that's still a huge discrepancy....and the exact reason why bigger will always be better....not in fan experience, but in economics.

 

[harrys ghost]

Unfortunately that will never be the case. Division I Universities....Oregon and Oklahoma State, notwithstanding....do not have billionaire owners. Using crude math....At 50 bucks a ticket, Minnesota will make 2.5 million for one home game (throw in parking, concessions, etc.)....Michigan will make roughly 5 million (with more from parking and concessions, etc.). In the end, they'll probably make 3 or 4 times what Minnesota makes in what one game. Multiply that by seven home games and that's still a huge discrepancy....and the exact reason why bigger will always be better....not in fan experience, but in economics.

The face price on the cheap seats is $40 (students are less) but I'm guessing with the surcharge for seats between the 20s and the premium seating, we are going to be well over $50 a ticket. 50 yard line tickets are over $100. Aren't the lowest priced club seats well over $200. This would be interesting to work out. No doubt Michigan pull in more bucks. I just wonder how much more.

 

[mnboiler]

Maximus you are missing a basic rule of economics supply and demand. If there is more than demand than supply prices will climb and the Athletics Department will make more money. Now if there less demand than supply the U wouldn't make much money at all. So the key to your model is that demand atleast equals supply. Now how do increase demand

1. WIN
2. Build loyality and a sense of family within the U population hopefully this transition to more young alumii buying season tickets after they graduate.
3. WIN
4. Great fan exprience
5. WIN
6. Good marketing.
7. WIN

It's really that simple

 

[GoAUpher]

No doubt Michigan pull in more bucks. I just wonder how much more.

Tons. Seriously though, we aren't even in the same league when it comes to $$$ made. They're spending approx the same amount (possibly more) on the updates to Michigan Stadium then we are spending on TCF.

They've been raking in the dough ever since Don Canham become AD in 1968. Ever wonder who got the idea to sell products with the logo of your favorite college team on it? That'd be Don Canham. Bama fans would not be able to get a proper burial (http://www.al.com/business/birmingh...siness/1227863774168550.xml&coll=2&thispage=3) if it weren't for this man.

 

[Goldy74s]

"Its really that simple". And you think the other Big Ten teams are not doing as much or more in order to do this simple thing? I sometimes wonder who the designated long term losers will be in the Big Ten once we become one of the teams that wins "every year".

 

[Goldmember]

I sometimes wonder who the designated long term losers will be in the Big Ten once we become one of the teams that wins "every year".

I sometimes wonder what would happen if Michigan went a decade without a wining season.

 

[Schnoodler]

the built in edge for these big programs is eroding, they still have the edge but it becomes less each year. the big three will slowly start melting into the middle. I'm thinking we will rise to middle tier and Iowa, Indiana, Purdue, and Wisonsin will go back to where they belong. In the cellar.