Battle goes for season-high 31 as losing streak grows to 10

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I haven’t posted in years. I was the first one (check the post history) to say that Tim Brewster was a moron. It was so damn obvious from early on (actually the first defensive play against Bowling Green where there wasn't anybody within 15 yards of a receiver after Mason got fired for a bad defense) that he was a complete charlatan. I got shouted down and stopped posting. While Ben Johnson is not a moron, he’s just not it.

Let's face simple facts: he’s an affirmative action hire that’s above well beyond his pay grade. A lot of posters are talking about a third year, but this is just wrong. He lost good talent, and replaced them well below-average talent from mid-majors. Recruiting genius? No! This is Brewster all over again (there's all this hope on recruiting without the adequate coaching to back it up). Just like Brewster, even the 'hype' prospect are zeros. I keep hearing that they're Freshman, and will improve. If they're like this as a Freshman, they'll be shit a Seniors (with more experience of being shit). I remember Voshon Leaonard's first game as a Gopher, and I was like, "Hell..yeah!" None of these current players comes anything close.

The program will be accelerated by ditching bait at this point and going in a different direction. I’ve loved Gopher basketball since the early-80s, and this is the lowest point, and it’s not close. And I know that Battle's performance tonight will give the holdouts some desperation hope, but, quite in fact, you're holding the beer hand.
 
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Battle is soft. No physicality, doesn't rebound. Decent player, but one of our best players is decent at best. That pretty much says it all.
 

kg21 said:
Battle is soft. No physicality, doesn't rebound. Decent player, but one of our best players is decent at best. That pretty much says it all.
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Soft?? Really??? He plays his a$$ off! IMO, he is clearly our 1 or 2 best overall player (yet decent like you said) and usually plays the whole game. Ben understands his value.

If you have noticed, Battle has changed his approach the past 2-3 game to being more aggressive with the ball rather than just looking for a 3 opp. His D has improved over last season.

He has come a long way as a recruit that few schools wanted to where he is. Would he start for Purdue? Probably not but he is the best we have and works hard to get better.
 


Bayfieldgopher said:
Soft?? Really??? He plays his a$$ off! IMO, he is clearly our 1 or 2 best overall player (yet decent like you said) and usually plays the whole game. Ben understands his value.

If you have noticed, Battle has changed his approach the past 2-3 game to being more aggressive with the ball rather than just looking for a 3 opp. His D has improved over last season.

He has come a long way as a recruit that few schools wanted to where he is. Would he start for Purdue? Probably not but he is the best we have and works hard to get better.
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I'm not sure you can tell this. With any combination of 2 of Garcia/Payne/JOJ/TT on the court with Battle, he is tasked with guarding the 3. Now all the CBJ apologists are going to tell me our roster of all Forwards isn't a problem and how basketball is now "positionless", fine. Battle is tasked with guarding the 3rd quickest/smallest player on the opposing team. You can tell how well that worked last night- he was routinely leaving his player wide open because of his lack of quickness. I like Battle as a player, so don't take this as me crapping on him. But when he is tasked with guarding a 3 with any level of quickness, his abilities are exposed.
 

forever a gopher said:
I'm not sure you can tell this. With any combination of 2 of Garcia/Payne/JOJ/TT on the court with Battle, he is tasked with guarding the 3. Now all the CBJ apologists are going to tell me our roster of all Forwards isn't a problem and how basketball is now "positionless", fine. Battle is tasked with guarding the 3rd quickest/smallest player on the opposing team. You can tell how well that worked last night- he was routinely leaving his player wide open because of his lack of quickness. I like Battle as a player, so don't take this as me crapping on him. But when he is tasked with guarding a 3 with any level of quickness, his abilities are exposed.
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He’s guarded the wing fine this year. Not a ball stopper but he isn’t the leak. That would be Cooper, Henley, and at times JOJ. Battles guy was left open because he was helping the others who don’t stop their man.
 

charlesbenjamin7 said:
I haven’t posted in years. I was the first one (check the post history) to say that Tim Brewster was a moron. It was so damn obvious from early on (actually the first defensive play against Bowling Green where there wasn't anybody within 15 yards of a receiver after Mason got fired for a bad defense) that he was a complete charlatan. I got shouted down and stopped posting. While Ben Johnson is not a moron, he’s just not it.

Let's face simple facts: he’s an affirmative action hire that’s above well beyond his pay grade. A lot of posters are talking about a third year, but this is just wrong. He lost good talent, and replaced them well below-average talent from mid-majors. Recruiting genius? No! This is Brewster all over again (there's all this hope on recruiting without the adequate coaching to back it up). Just like Brewster, even the 'hype' prospect are zeros. I keep hearing that they're Freshman, and will improve. If they're like this as a Freshman, they'll be shit a Seniors (with more experience of being shit). I remember Voshon Leaonard's first game as a Gopher, and I was like, "Hell..yeah!" None of these current players comes anything close.

The program will be accelerated by ditching bait at this point and going in a different direction. I’ve loved Gopher basketball since the early-80s, and this is the lowest point, and it’s not close. And I know that Battle's performance tonight will give the holdouts some desperation hope, but, quite in fact, you're holding the beer hand.
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This is the part where a few of the posters who have been here for like a year and a half get to tell you that you don't know anything about recruiting and building a program....
 




Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
This is the part where a few of the posters who have been here for like a year and a half get to tell you that you don't know anything about recruiting and building a program....
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It’s also the part where anyone who compares Ben Johnson to Brewster shows they have no idea what they are talking about. Brew sucked for a variety of other reasons. If Ben doesn’t improve it will be for a completely different set of them. Brewster had no stability and ran a program that didn’t have good students and people. Brewster took whomever no matter the fit. Ben won’t take someone who’s not a fit to maybe a fault.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
He’s guarded the wing fine this year. Not a ball stopper but he isn’t the leak. That would be Cooper, Henley, and at times JOJ. Battles guy was left open because he was helping the others who don’t stop their man.
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I remember one possession explicitly where Battle left someone wide open in the corner because he attempted to rotate to the wrong player that Henley already had covered. Battle doesn't usually get noticeably lost like that, but no one is going to accuse him of being an above average defender either. Clearly one of our issues is the lack of ball stoppers. Cooper is a problem. Our shooting guard has been a problem at times. Battle has also had issues. This team as a whole has been disappointing from a defensive stand point for the entire season. Especially considering the identity Ben sold to fans about how his teams would be built. Our defense has been anything but tough and gritty for all those involved this year.
 

GopherBlood666 said:
I remember one possession explicitly where Battle left someone wide open in the corner because he attempted to rotate to the wrong player that Henley already had covered. Battle doesn't usually get noticeably lost like that, but no one is going to accuse him of being an above average defender either. Clearly one of our issues is the lack of ball stoppers. Cooper is a problem. Our shooting guard has been a problem at times. Battle has also had issues. This team as a whole has been disappointing from a defensive stand point for the entire season. Especially considering the identity Ben sold to fans about how his teams would be built. Our defense has been anything but tough and gritty for all those involved this year.
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Totally agree. Our defense has been the most disappointing thing about Bens tenure imo. If it doesn’t dramatically improve next year I’ll be off the wagon
 





Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
This is the part where a few of the posters who have been here for like a year and a half get to tell you that you don't know anything about recruiting and building a program....
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I've been a member of a recruiting pay-site since 2003 though. And believe me, with how things have been...I follow recruiting and freshman development a lot...more than I watch the games. So I know what I'm talking about as far as our freshmen and recruiting.

And yes...the guy who posted that big complaint and said our freshmen are no good...he does NOT know what he's talking about.

I have no reason to lie. Or exaggerate.
 

11 of Battle's 31 points came after the Gophers were down 70-55 with 3 minutes to play. With the new excuse being we're playing X number of games in X number of days, Battle played 39 of the 40 minutes in a game the Gophers were not within 6 points of tying the game from the first Illini basket of the second half. Also, I have zero issue not playing Thompson if Coach Johnson plans on moving on from him after this season. Having said that, I thought him not playing last year late in the season was a sign they were moving on from him and he's back this year exactly where he was last year.

As for the backcourt, in this game specicfically you really should only be calling out Cooper if we're talking about scoring. He was 1-9. Henley was 2-4, Carrington, 0-2, and Samuels 0-0 (in 3 minutes). If we're looking beyond this year, Cooper does not have the foot speed or handle to be the primary ball handler on a high major team. Jury is out on on both Henley and Carrington, but early returns haven't been great. You hope guys impress with either their athleticism or skill and that the other aspect gets better over time. Both guys are hoving around the 30% fg mark for the season and neither has shown to be a wow athlete. Myself and others were shouting that we needed at least one more quality guard out of the portal and pointed out the issues of pairing Cooper with a freshman in the backcourt and expecting to defend anybody.

We're again at the place that we need at least a primary ballhandler and another guard/wing that we expect to start out of the portal. Coach Johnson has claimed in multiple interviews that they've turned down so much talent because they weren't the right "fit". It's time to stop turning down that talent or identifying much better "fits" than what we've seen through 2 years.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
It’s also the part where anyone who compares Ben Johnson to Brewster shows they have no idea what they are talking about. Brew sucked for a variety of other reasons. If Ben doesn’t improve it will be for a completely different set of them. Brewster had no stability and ran a program that didn’t have good students and people. Brewster took whomever no matter the fit. Ben won’t take someone who’s not a fit to maybe a fault.
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I don’t buy the bolded part. We have five scholarships going to guys who are most effective at the 4 (battle, Garcia, JOJ, Ihnen, and Fox). These are all guys that thrive off the mismatch at the four, but can be defensively exploited at other positions. In general, each lacks the quickness to guard the 3 and lacks the strength to defend strong in the post. Garcia and Battle are both volume shooters and score best out of iso. None of these players fit together imo.
 

bc2211 said:
I don’t buy the bolded part. We have five scholarships going to guys who are most effective at the 4 (battle, Garcia, JOJ, Ihnen, and Fox). These are all guys that thrive off the mismatch at the four, but can be defensively exploited at other positions. In general, each lacks the quickness to guard the 3 and lacks the strength to defend strong in the post. Garcia and Battle are both volume shooters and score best out of iso. None of these players fit together imo.
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You misinterpreted what I meant by fit. I meant culturally and program wise. Not necessarily playing together. Hence the “to a fault” part of the sentence.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
Our defense has been the most disappointing thing about Bens tenure imo.
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Lack of offensive skill is the biggest issue, not defense.

They simply struggle to score all game, every game. They lack speed, shooting, post play, shooting, quickness, shooting, individual skill, shooting, offensive rebounding, shooting, ball handling, shooting, and they're turnover prone.

Unless/until they get better with the ball, they won't win anything. And here's the really bad news...Evans and Christie aren't going to fix that.
 

USAF said:
Lack of offensive skill is the biggest issue, not defense.

They simply struggle to score all game, every game. They lack speed, shooting, post play, shooting, quickness, shooting, individual skill, shooting, offensive rebounding, shooting, ball handling, shooting, and they're turnover prone.

Unless/until they get better with the ball, they won't win anything. And here's the really bad news...Evans and Christie aren't going to fix that.
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I would agree with that. At times they get lost on defense or just fail to make the plays and they can look pretty bad but they're capable of playing decent defense and do play well enough on that end of the court a fair amount of the time. They rarely look good on offense and, when they do, it's generally because of individual effort and usually in the post area.
 

USAF said:
Lack of offensive skill is the biggest issue, not defense.

They simply struggle to score all game, every game. They lack speed, shooting, post play, shooting, quickness, shooting, individual skill, shooting, offensive rebounding, shooting, ball handling, shooting, and they're turnover prone.

Unless/until they get better with the ball, they won't win anything. And here's the really bad news...Evans and Christie aren't going to fix that.
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And yet we're still 2nd to last in the conference in defense
 

Gopherfan84 said:
You misinterpreted what I meant by fit. I meant culturally and program wise.
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You know, I've read that rationale many times but I don't buy it at all. Absent obvious signs (e.g., behavioral problems at prior schools, noticeably bad attitudes during interviews) I don't know how a coach could tell that with any degree of certainty, particularly in the fast-paced transfer environment. I don't think many coaches are like the character "Bull" on the former TV series who, because of many years of experiential and academic background in studying human behavior and aided by sophisticated technology, could tell you all sorts of reasons why an individual should or should not be on his jury.

It seems to me that the substantial majority of our transfers over the years have been relatively well behaved so the risk of failure due to cultural misfits is pretty low.

You should always be suspicious of people using vague terminology as rationales. More often than not, they're either bullshitting, or covering up the real reasons, or don't have a clear idea of why they made a decision.
 
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USAF said:
Lack of offensive skill is the biggest issue, not defense.

They simply struggle to score all game, every game. They lack speed, shooting, post play, shooting, quickness, shooting, individual skill, shooting, offensive rebounding, shooting, ball handling, shooting, and they're turnover prone.

Unless/until they get better with the ball, they won't win anything. And here's the really bad news...Evans and Christie aren't going to fix that.
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I disagree. I think playing top 50 defense makes up for lack in skill offensively. I know their offensive metrics are terrible this year but I don’t think it’s a skill issue more than it’s a not having a good point guard and having young guys play too much and turn it over issue.
Christie is talented and very skilled offensively and will help there. Evan’s most likely won’t. It’s also why I’ve said a PG is number one in the portal vs a wing
 


Gopherfan84 said:
I disagree. I think playing top 50 defense makes up for lack in skill offensively. I know their offensive metrics are terrible this year but I don’t think it’s a skill issue more than it’s a not having a good point guard and having young guys play too much and turn it over issue.
Christie is talented and very skilled offensively and will help there. Evan’s most likely won’t. It’s also why I’ve said a PG is number one in the portal vs a wing
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Yep. Carrington, Henley, Christie can all play the 2 or 3 and then you have Betts, Ihnen and JOJ that are all looking to play at the 3 slot. Everyone of them has to get better to make that work but I believe that one or more will make that jump. Need a PG that can put them in the right spots and if Cooper stays he gets time at the 2 as well. With ball handling off of his plate Cooper might be a better player as well.
 

bc2211 said:
I don’t buy the bolded part. We have five scholarships going to guys who are most effective at the 4 (battle, Garcia, JOJ, Ihnen, and Fox). These are all guys that thrive off the mismatch at the four, but can be defensively exploited at other positions. In general, each lacks the quickness to guard the 3 and lacks the strength to defend strong in the post. Garcia and Battle are both volume shooters and score best out of iso. None of these players fit together imo.
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I think he meant "character fit". I love that about Ben and it is one of the best things about him.
I haven't seen a whiff of bad attitude or behavior on this team and that definitely plagued Pitino.

In terms of roster balance he definitely blew that and we can only hope he doesn't do it going forward.
 

cjbfbp said:
You know, I've read that rationale many times but I don't buy it at all. Absent obvious signs (e.g., behavioral problems at prior schools, noticeably bad attitudes during interviews) I don't know how a coach could tell that with any degree of certainty, particularly in the fast-paced transfer environment. I don't think many coaches are like the character "Bull" on the former TV series who, because of many years of experiential and academic background in studying human behavior and aided by sophisticated technology, could tell you all sorts of reasons why an individual should or should not be on his jury.

It seems to me that the substantial majority of our transfers over the years have been relatively well behaved so the risk of failure due to cultural misfits is pretty low.

You should always be suspicious of people using vague terminology as rationales. More often than not, they're either bullshitting, or covering up the real reasons, or don't have a clear idea of why they made a decision.
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Lol I’ve coached and heard pretty much every coach talk about finding kids that fit what they want to do. Call it what you want, but fit matters. To what extent you can certainly debate. Don’t buy it if you don’t want, but coaches care about it.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
Lol I’ve coached and heard pretty much every coach talk about finding kids that fit what they want to do. Call it what you want, but fit matters. To what extent you can certainly debate. Don’t buy it if you don’t want, but coaches care about it.
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Culture matters.
 

bga1 said:
I think he meant "character fit". I love that about Ben and it is one of the best things about him.
I haven't seen a whiff of bad attitude or behavior on this team and that definitely plagued Pitino.

In terms of roster balance he definitely blew that and we can only hope he doesn't do it going forward.
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Our kids are also all pretty good citizens off the court too. They are pretty focused on being a student athlete and their extracurriculars are making podcasts and things that are pretty mundane. We will see how it goes
 


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