Hot take: We're just fine, PJ is doing fine.

[GopherTheJugular]

He has 7 of top 12 MN kids committed to the program.

And maybe 2 of those belong on a B1G field. The rest are just filler because he can't recruit any other 3 stars to come to Mpls. The 2 OL, Jerome Williams and Greg Johnson, will be like 3rd team all Big ten as seniors if we're lucky.

If we were doing well at recruiting, we'd only have like 3 minnesota kids this class.

 

[Catechol]

Fleck is 39-26 (.600) overall.
22-25 (0.468) in the B1G.
Kill was 29-29 (.500) overall
14-21 (0.400) in the B1G.
Mason was 64-57 (0.529) overall.
32-48 (.400) in the B1G.

Fleck might have take over a more talented program than Kill, but he has also done more with it. He had a few pieces left over from Kill but he also had to win with a Sophomore QB and patchwork offensive line that were all his.

The broader point though, is that the Gophers aren't going to find a better coach than PJ Fleck.

Comparing Kill to Fleck’s record is fair. Comparing Mason to Fleck is not apples to apples. State of the program when Mason took over , the dome , below average practice facilities not to mention, no West division schedule so he had to play 2/3 of OSU, Michigan and PSU every year.

 

[benlaur]

Fleck is 39-26 (.600) overall.
22-25 (0.468) in the B1G.
Kill was 29-29 (.500) overall
14-21 (0.400) in the B1G.
Mason was 64-57 (0.529) overall.
32-48 (.400) in the B1G.

Fleck might have take over a more talented program than Kill, but he has also done more with it. He had a few pieces left over from Kill but he also had to win with a Sophomore QB and patchwork offensive line that were all his.

The broader point though, is that the Gophers aren't going to find a better coach than PJ Fleck.

Huh? compared to his peers in the Big10, Fleck is modestly under performing. Of course they could find a better coach and of course they could find a worse one.

Pj could be my son, brother, or dad and I would say the same thing. The truth is in the results. There is no need to be silly either way with commentary.

You are saying it is impossible to be better. I imagine even PJ would disagree with you.

 

[disco]

Yes, similar markets with more success than the Gophers. Why? If you dismiss the detracting influence of pro competition, then what has caused UM to lag behind these three and most Big10 teams since the early 60s? I ask sincerely, not confrontationally.

Well, the point of bringing up those three markets is that they all have either 3 or 4 of the major pro sports just like we do. (In Seattle's case, the Sounders are so popular, you may as well count them, though I suspect they'll get an NBA team again soon.)

From those older than me (I became a fan around 1981 - possibly the lowest point of the program) it's institutional incompetence. Apparently from the late 60's on, the administration made it a point to de-emphasize football. I can't say all sports, because hockey was successful, and basketball had its moments.

They let Memorial Stadium rot, then moved off-campus in a disastrous move. They had AD's that didn't care about revenue sports. They hired a number of really terrible coaches. (Guetekunst, Wacker, Brewster). They were gun shy about hiring any coach with any controversy after Holtz left them with the Luther Darville thing, and then the scandals under Dutcher and Clem in basketball. Allegedly, they could have hired Mike Leach when they hired Kill but the AD said no way.

And I've said before, any major coach is going to demand proof of booster NIL money to be able to pay the best players going forward.

It's been a perfect storm of crap.

 

[Some Day...Maybe]

Let me parachute into this board and drop some (seemingly) hot takes:

• PJ is doing fine. He has built a front 7 and secondary (plus depth) that we haven't seen before
• We clearly have more talent, size and athleticism across the board than we have at any time in the past.
• We now have competition (and unfortunate transfers) in RB/WR/QB rooms. That means good recruiting. That means good depth.
• Lastly, and perhaps most importantly - it's a sign of a good coach that he can make guys like Tanner Morgan, Braelon Oliver, Sori-Marin, etc and make them into competitive B1G players. Y'all need to remember how bare the cupboard was, and PJ was bringing in guys that would have been at a MAC or Sun Belt school instead.

Competition in the WR room?

 

[benlaur]

Huh? compared to his peers in the Big10, Fleck is modestly under performing. Of course they could find a better coach and of course they could find a worse one.

Pj could be my son, brother, or dad and I would say the same thing. The truth is in the results. There is no need to be silly either way with commentary.

You are saying it is impossible to be better. I imagine even PJ would disagree with you.

Also, he seems to care about the kids and seems like he is probably good to them and if that is the case, he deserves bonus props as there are a lot of "successful" clowns.

 

[disco]

Also, he seems to care about the kids and seems like he is probably good to them and if that is the case, he deserves bonus props as there are a lot "successful" clowns.

PJ and Heather are really, really good people. I've told the story before, but I know some people who have a child with a rare disease who have to travel to the U for treatment from about 250 miles away. PJ and Heather befriended the child and his family to the point they call and check on them several times a month and consider them friends.

 

[Mr. 131]

And maybe 2 of those belong on a B1G field. The rest are just filler because he can't recruit any other 3 stars to come to Mpls. The 2 OL, Jerome Williams and Greg Johnson, will be like 3rd team all Big ten as seniors if we're lucky.

If we were doing well at recruiting, we'd only have like 3 minnesota kids this class.

Not trying to be argumentative - genuinely curious about your opinion...thanks in advance for assuming I'm coming with positive intent...

When it comes to recruiting, I often hear about how hard it is to recruit to Minnesota - the weather, the metro area, the lack of results for decades. It all makes sense. However, I also look at places like Iowa, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan that have varying levels of shit weather and their own pros/cons to their campus.

Is Minnesota really at that big of a deficit due to being a metro campus and the cold? Do Iowa and Wisconsin (in particular) just benefit from having the last 2 decades of success? Are we doomed to never close the gap?

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Not trying to be argumentative - genuinely curious about your opinion...thanks in advance for assuming I'm coming with positive intent...

When it comes to recruiting, I often hear about how hard it is to recruit to Minnesota - the weather, the metro area, the lack of results for decades. It all makes sense. However, I also look at places like Iowa, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan that have varying levels of shit weather and their own pros/cons to their campus.

Is Minnesota really at that big of a deficit due to being a metro campus and the cold? Do Iowa and Wisconsin (in particular) just benefit from having the last 2 decades of success? Are we doomed to never close the gap?

No, it's a rationalization. A program like OSU has so much money and history that it would take a longer time horizon than a single coaching hire to erase that deficit. But we are not some uniquely disadvantaged program that cannot possibly compete at the same level as many of the other teams that have been mentioned on this thread. Certainly at least at Washington's level.

 

[MaxyJR1]

And maybe 2 of those belong on a B1G field. The rest are just filler because he can't recruit any other 3 stars to come to Mpls. The 2 OL, Jerome Williams and Greg Johnson, will be like 3rd team all Big ten as seniors if we're lucky.

If we were doing well at recruiting, we'd only have like 3 minnesota kids this class.

And still has the 9th class in the conference? You must be underselling MN kids.

The others are going to Iowa State, Kansas, Washington, and LSU.

Yes he needs more kids to be more highly ranked, we all know that.

2023 Players ranked under .8600 in the West (4* or 5*) (Total in state)
Illinois 13 (1 in state 4*) (6)
Purdue 7 (1 in state 4*) (6)
MN 7 (1 in state 4*) (7)
NW 5 ( 3 out of state 4*) (4)
WI 3 (all 3 stars) (2)
NE 2 ( 1 in state and 2 out of state 4*) (6)
IA 2 (1 in state 5*) (7)

 

[fair]

No, we don't have competition in the QB room. PJ has made it very clear that he has a man-crush with Morgan and until his eligibility is exhausted, he will play, no matter how poorly.

And the only competition in the WR room is comparing these receivers to those gems that Kill brought in, in an attempt to see who had better WRs, PJ or Kill. If you take out Bateman, it's a pretty even comparison.

- Do you genuinely think Athan playing over Tanner this year would have added any wins to the schedule? I agree that he has a higher ceiling, and the argument can be made that it’s time to play him and accelerate his development, but I don’t understand those who still convinced that Tanner doesn’t deserve to have the job right now.

- “If you take out PJ’s *best recruit ever*, it’s a pretty even comparison”. Right, because that’s a completely logical way to make a comparison. Our available WRs are rough right now, sure, but I don’t know what point you’re trying to make with that statement.

 

[PMWinSTP]

If only our revenues had been - and were - increasing lately . . .

Also . . . Good thing other B1G programs have been “spartan” in not giving big increases to their staffs.

Just posed the question. Did paying that get the expected increase in results, or should there be no expectations? I guess your answer is U had to pay that to stay in the arms race?

 

[PMWinSTP]

I don't think you can fire Fleck at 7-6. It would just be spinning our wheels. He's excited about some of the young guys. He has 7 of top 12 MN kids committed to the program.

Yeah, he's not going anywhere anytime soon. Going 4-8 will make his seat get pretty warm, and I would assume Coyle would make it clear that things will need to improve on the field for next season.

 

[PMWinSTP]

- Do you genuinely think Athan playing over Tanner this year would have added any wins to the schedule? I agree that he has a higher ceiling, and the argument can be made that it’s time to play him and accelerate his development, but I don’t understand those who still convinced that Tanner doesn’t deserve to have the job right now.

- “If you take out PJ’s *best recruit ever*, it’s a pretty even comparison”. Right, because that’s a completely logical way to make a comparison. Our available WRs are rough right now, sure, but I don’t know what point you’re trying to make with that statement.

I think the question whether Gophs will win fewer games going forward if Athan starts the rest of the games. That, to me, would be the only upside to having Morgan start. Your thoughts?

 

[disco]

Is Minnesota really at that big of a deficit due to being a metro campus and the cold? Do Iowa and Wisconsin (in particular) just benefit from having the last 2 decades of success? Are we doomed to never close the gap?

I used to believe this, but I'm not so sure anymore. The U has good athletic facilities now (with the exception of the Barn - sorry). It's a pretty nice campus. And honestly, OSU is an urban campus. Columbus is the largest city in Ohio...

 

[fair]

I think the question whether Gophs will win fewer games going forward if Athan starts the rest of the games. That, to me, would be the only upside to having Morgan start. Your thoughts?

I wouldn’t have a problem with Athan playing from here on out given where the season has ended up. The way this team performing, I honestly don’t think the QB is going to be the difference between a win and a loss going forward. It’s going to fall on the success of the O-Line in the run game and the ability of the WRs to get open, and I think either Tanner or Athan can be equally successful if those conditions are good.

When our prospects were higher and the West seemed to be ours to lose, I would have preferred we stuck with Tanner and push off any potential growing pains of an unproven QB to next year.

The thing I take issue with is when people (like the post I originally responded to) act like PJ is chained to Tanner and will start him at all costs, while Athan is some miracle-worker waiting in the wings. Nothing we’ve seen in games from Athan has shown that he has a greater claim to the starting job. Again, I do agree that starting him going forward would be beneficial for his development, and might be best for the future of the program.

 

[PMWinSTP]

I wouldn’t have a problem with Athan playing from here on out given where the season has ended up. The way this team performing, I honestly don’t think the QB is going to be the difference between a win and a loss going forward. It’s going to fall on the success of the O-Line in the run game and the ability of the WRs to get open, and I think either Tanner or Athan can be equally successful if those conditions are good.

When our prospects were higher and the West seemed to be ours to lose, I would have preferred we stuck with Tanner and push off any potential growing pains of an unproven QB to next year.

The thing I take issue with is when people (like the post I originally responded to) act like PJ is chained to Tanner and will start him at all costs, while Athan is some miracle-worker waiting in the wings. Nothing we’ve seen in games from Athan has shown that he has a greater claim to the starting job. Again, I do agree that starting him going forward would be beneficial for his development, and might be best for the future of the program.

Not sure I have read posts like that...but Fleck tends to be conservative in general and waits too long to make changes. There is no doubt Athan has a much higher ceiling, so I would prefer to get the "growing pains" as you out it, out of the way now against conference opponents, and go into next year with a proven QB.

 

[fair]

Not sure I have read posts like that...but Fleck tends to be conservative in general and waits too long to make changes. There is no doubt Athan has a much higher ceiling, so I would prefer to get the "growing pains" as you out it, out of the way now against conference opponents, and go into next year with a proven QB.

The post I replied to: “PJ has made it very clear that he has a man-crush with Morgan and until his eligibility is exhausted, he will play, no matter how poorly”.

But yes, I ultimately agree with your statement as the team goes forward. I preferred the experience of Tanner when this season felt like it could be a big one, but am okay taking Athan and investing in the future now that the season is less optimistic.

 

[stocker08]

Being 4-3?

You know that I was talking about the program as a whole.

Two that matter as much, one maybe more?
Beating Iowa for Floyd
Beating Michigan for the Little Brown Jug

Iowa and Floyd are close....but you poll the Gophers fanbase....and I don't think there's any question that Wisconsin and the Axe run away with the distinction of being the most important rivalry. Getting to see the Gophers reclaim the Axe....at home and in person.....this past year for the first time in nearly 20 years (I was 13 in 2003....and also at that game) might be my favorite moment of my Gopher fandom. Think it narrowly edges out the PSU game in 2019.

Point is....that both of those have come in the past few years....and under Fleck as the coach. The Iowa games in 2010 and 2011...the 2010 one for sure...are certainly up there...but those Gophers teams won three games a piece. A blip in a sea of despair.

 

[46Gophers]

These last three games the Gophers have been outcoached and underperformed. Fleck and crew should take criticism for their performance. Any talk about firing him though is ridiculous but he's earned the criticism. There are still chances to turn things around and have a good season but the coaches and players need to step up their games. The fact that people are very disappointed in a three game losing streak is a credit to how the program has headed in the right direction. It wasn't too long ago that three loses like this were quite common....and few cared.

 

[Live in the now]

Well, the point of bringing up those three markets is that they all have either 3 or 4 of the major pro sports just like we do. (In Seattle's case, the Sounders are so popular, you may as well count them, though I suspect they'll get an NBA team again soon.)

From those older than me (I became a fan around 1981 - possibly the lowest point of the program) it's institutional incompetence. Apparently from the late 60's on, the administration made it a point to de-emphasize football. I can't say all sports, because hockey was successful, and basketball had its moments.

They let Memorial Stadium rot, then moved off-campus in a disastrous move. They had AD's that didn't care about revenue sports. They hired a number of really terrible coaches. (Guetekunst, Wacker, Brewster). They were gun shy about hiring any coach with any controversy after Holtz left them with the Luther Darville thing, and then the scandals under Dutcher and Clem in basketball. Allegedly, they could have hired Mike Leach when they hired Kill but the AD said no way.

And I've said before, any major coach is going to demand proof of booster NIL money to be able to pay the best players going forward.

It's been a perfect storm of crap.

That’s a great point with the nil. It’s a game changer for sure

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

And maybe 2 of those belong on a B1G field. The rest are just filler because he can't recruit any other 3 stars to come to Mpls. The 2 OL, Jerome Williams and Greg Johnson, will be like 3rd team all Big ten as seniors if we're lucky.

If we were doing well at recruiting, we'd only have like 3 minnesota kids this class.

Greg Esslinger & Eric Decker chime in -

 

[Some guy]

Cupboard was bare. Yeah, Winfield, Johnson, Coughlin, Martin - and the majority of the 2019 roster. They were awful. PJ won with them, and he should have.

Also, Mason didn’t have the benefit of playing in the Big Ten West that PJ has had, and he did really well. I would have loved to see what he could have done with that. Give Mason some credit. Kill truly inherited a dumpster fire and along with Claeys positioned PJ well as he came in. Now, looking at what PJ has done, his record is about what Mason and Kill did. Let’s hope he takes it in a positive direction the rest of this year.

Jeff

It was much easier to win the big ten pre 2011
If you think that having to win the west and then win another game to win the big ten title is easier than being able to split titles is easier you’re kidding yourself

 

[Some guy]

Cupboard was bare. Yeah, Winfield, Johnson, Coughlin, Martin - and the majority of the 2019 roster. They were awful. PJ won with them, and he should have.

Also, Mason didn’t have the benefit of playing in the Big Ten West that PJ has had, and he did really well. I would have loved to see what he could have done with that. Give Mason some credit. Kill truly inherited a dumpster fire and along with Claeys positioned PJ well as he came in. Now, looking at what PJ has done, his record is about what Mason and Kill did. Let’s hope he takes it in a positive direction the rest of this year.

Jeff

If you think it’s easier to win the big ten now you’re kidding yourself.
You have to win the division plus tiebreakers. Then you have to win the conference title game

In mason’s day you had to be in a tie for first place sometimes with 3-4 other teams.

1999 gophers beat one team in the top 5 of the conference and were an overtime loss being a win away from winning the conference with just two wins against top 5 teams in the conference.

The 2003 team was one win away from a conference title. If they finish that Michigan game they win the conference having beaten one team in the top 6 of an 11 team conference.

It was so much easier to win in mason’s day

 

[West Fargo Gopher Fan]

Im on "Team PJ Fleck". I think he is a great coach and hope he is our coach for a long time.

I also think he deserves criticism for the last few games and the fanbase deserves more of an explanation than "The loss is my fault".

Its possible to be both.

 

[Laker]

I used to believe this, but I'm not so sure anymore. The U has good athletic facilities now (with the exception of the Barn - sorry). It's a pretty nice campus. And honestly, OSU is an urban campus. Columbus is the largest city in Ohio...

OSU is definitely an urban campus. Since Columbus encompasses the whole county it is the biggest “city” in Ohio. Cleveland and Cincinnati are bigger media markets. UC is a 100 miles from OSU with an urban campus. There are also 6 other D1 football teams in Ohio. BTw, Ohio is not exactly balmy in the winter so there is that. Fleck is a good coach not a great one. Gopher fans are starting to realize where his ceiling is at. 7-8 wins per season is pretty good and who do you get to replace him with? OTOH, the row the boat schtick is getting old when the top tier Big 10 teams have trip 350s powering their boats

 

[spermophilus]

Just posed the question. Did paying that get the expected increase in results, or should there be no expectations? I guess your answer is U had to pay that to stay in the arms race?

Relatively, yes.

And . . .

Unequivocally, yes.

 

[laazrakit]

Cupboard was bare. Yeah, Winfield

Ease up on at least that name... PJ Fleck recruited the hell out of Winfield. He was Gone with a capital G. His dad said he'd never play at MN again. Fleck had to sell his ass off to bring that kid back into the fold.

 

[Some guy]

Ease up on at least that name... PJ Fleck recruited the hell out of Winfield. He was Gone with a capital G. His dad said he'd never play at MN again. Fleck had to sell his ass off to bring that kid back into the fold.

People who say stuff like that really need to let it go

Claeys isn’t coming back
Kill isn’t coming back
It’s over
Let it go

 

[Plato]

Over the last few years, MN's biggest rivals have declined, WI, and remained the same, IA.
Now WI has a new HC and he seems to have righted the ship while IA depends on a stellar defense to keep it in games while the HC's son pretends to be a competent OC.
Next year is the last year for the divisions and the TV sponsors will expect the BIG to play ten conference games with rivalry games being protected.
If PJ wins over IA and WI this year, his job is safe for a few years.
If he loses both games, the first year with USC and UCLA in the BIG and no divisions will determine his future at MN.