Gophers coach P.J. Fleck on early fourth-down decision: ‘I would do it again’..."it only cost us 3 points, it was worth it"

[60's Guy]

The coach who is Uber conservative with the play clock and 70% run offense. Who expounds the ball is the program. Despises penalties. Looks for any conservative disciplined edge he can find…and he says “it’s only 3 points.” ??? That’s a bigger BS stretch than taking a pay cut to come here.

In his mind there is no such thing as momentum, so there is no psychological disadvantage to failing either.
But wait,
I thought failing is growth? We made the same blunder last homecoming.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Also pretty silly to just brush away 3 points. Take those 3 points off the board and you're tied late in the 4th quarter, not selling trying desperately to get the ball back.

This ignores the missed FG and dropped TD. Potentially should have been up 13-10 at halftime.

 

[STPGopher]

Is it just me or did the refs blow the call on the wildcat play? It appears to me that the Purdue lineman never got back after he jumped.

 

[Gophers_4life]

What would be nice to see would be a cut-up tape of all our running plays against Purdue, back-to-back (and ideally from the rear angle). Then could try to get a sense of how they so successfully stopped our run scheme.

Until proven wrong, I have to contend that they did something very specific schematically that we didn't prepare for that messed up our blocking assignments.

 

[Ope3]

Is it just me or did the refs blow the call on the wildcat play? It appears to me that the Purdue lineman never got back after he jumped.

I mentioned it earlier, but I still don't think the lineman that flinched is in the neutral zone. No call was proper IMO. There was a replay during the telecast, close up and it does not look like he crossed the black line (which the refs do not have the benefit of seeing obviously).

What would have been best for the Gophers is for an offensive line to react to it, that would have forced the ref to make a call on Encroachment (Defense can't intentionally draw movement) or Illegal motion.

Either result would have been better for the Gophers. 1st and 10, drive continues or 4th and 6, Punt.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

What would be nice to see would be a cut-up tape of all our running plays against Purdue, back-to-back (and ideally from the rear angle). Then could try to get a sense of how they so successfully stopped our run scheme.

Until proven wrong, I have to contend that they did something very specific schematically that we didn't prepare for that messed up our blocking assignments.

I cannot really prove it to you, but if you watch a replay, they did almost the exact same thing on every play.

The linebackers shifted to cover the strong side and the SS came down, essentially making it a 4-4 with either a cover 3 or cover 1. They did this on almost every single play. They won because their DL was beating our OL and our RBs didn't make anyone miss or run through a tackle.

 

[MNfootballfan]

"It only cost us three points." In a game decided by ten. NEVER take a chance at surrendering the ball on your side of the field, much less the thirty.

Similar situation last year vs. Ohio State and we busted a 40 yard run and changed the momentum of the game. 3 points in the first half - not a big deal. It didn't change the way either team coached/played. Yes, we would have been leading at one point, but the bigger play of the game was the dropped touchdown that turned into an interception.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Similar situation last year vs. Ohio State and we busted a 40 yard run and changed the momentum of the game. 3 points in the first half - not a big deal. It didn't change the way either team coached/played. Yes, we would have been leading at one point, but the bigger play of the game was the dropped touchdown that turned into an interception.

Two big differences is they were already having success running the ball against Ohio St and they had Mo.

 

[Some guy]

watching it now. Looks like Kramer plowed into the worst possible lane he could have chosen. Doesn't change the fact that it was a poor choice of play call, but there are guys out there that could have picked up a first down. Not sure what PJ sees in Kramer.

Wildcat is stupid generally. You remove a passing threat and the guy you are running is worse than the top 3 running backs.

If we are running wildcat it should be run with Mo and Williams in backfield, not Kramer and other running back.


Green I kinda got because he was a unique player and it was a way to get him involved. But even the green line I didn’t like

 

[Go Gophs]

I love Fleck, but this was a horrible decision. We had basically not been moving the ball at all and these are free points if you don't get the first. Bad decision.

 

[DanvilleGopher]

I don't follow Gopher football all that closely, but my general impression is that Fleck will sometimes say in general terms that a loss was on him, e.g., he didn't have the team ready to play, but he rarely, if ever, questions a specific call he made.

Also, I don't believe him when he says he'd do the same thing again. If that identictle circumstance comes up in the next game at Illinois, I guarantee 100% that he will punt.

I will say he did the exact same thing in the Bowling Green game last year (same circumstance; same yard line, down and distance - complete replication of the situation a year ago) and STILL did it again after having it backfire and seemingly setting the tone for the remainder of the game(s).

With no Mo (last year or this year) to get him the yard+ either!!

Not sure why you think he wouldn't do the same if he's done the same already, AND with the fatal result learned last year, it still didn't give him enough reason to punt.

 

[MNfootballfan]

Two big differences is they were already having success running the ball against Ohio St and they had Mo.

I should also clarify, I think going for it was the right decision but I think the play called was dumb. Unless you have a custom made QB (Seth Green) the wild cat is not effective. Why take the ball out of Tanner's hand and put it in the hands of a kid who literally hasn't been on the field.

My play call... Spann-Ford starts on left and motions across the line to the right. WR on the right runs a slant and BSF runs a flat along the line. Morgan play actions with the RB who is lined up on his right running to the left. Morgan has 3 options... slant, Spann Ford running the flat, or runs for the sticks.

 

[hungan1]

I beg to differ with PJ Fleck. Going for it on Fourth Down inside the Red Zone potentially contributed to the losses to BGSU last year and Purdue last weekend.

One extra victory last season would have impacted the fortunes of the Gophers in the Big Ten West significantly.

 

[btowngopher]

Compared to Green?

I think so. Kramer isn’t used as often as Green was. But I feel like he’s typically been just as effective. Green got stuffed at times too. The most infuriating thing to me with Green was that they would run wildcat on first down with him.

 

[PMWinSTP]

I think so. Kramer isn’t used as often as Green was. But I feel like he’s typically been just as effective. Green got stuffed at times too. The most infuriating thing to me with Green was that they would run wildcat on first down with him.

To me Green was better. I liked that they used him in those situations as well. Always seemed to get decent yards.

 

[Gophers_4life]

I cannot really prove it to you, but if you watch a replay, they did almost the exact same thing on every play.

The linebackers shifted to cover the strong side and the SS came down, essentially making it a 4-4 with either a cover 3 or cover 1. They did this on almost every single play. They won because their DL was beating our OL and our RBs didn't make anyone miss or run through a tackle.

I trust you that this is correct for just initial formation. This doesn't address DL stunts, if they were running those, or the actual alignment. I mean like, where were their DL actually lining up relative to our blockers.

I was speculating that perhaps their 3tech was really (extra) wide, making it almost impossible for our Guard to reach that guy, especially if he's shooing upfield. That's just a wild guess.


It's tough to see stuff from the stadium. And I often don't have the time/will to go back and watch the game on TV, where it's a lot easier to see things. Oh well

 

[Gophers_4life]

No matter what, this is the truth of football: if you just do the same thing, over and over, on offense ... eventually some defensive guy is going to figure out a way to stop that particular thing.

The veer option was impossible to stop, back in the day. Until it wasn't. I believe the 3-4 was invented to stop that? Could be making that up, but you get the idea.


If we are really focusing on running (wide) zone + RPO slants, someone is going to figure out how to stop that. Maybe Purdue just did. Or maybe Bert had figured it out last year. Maybe if they sell out to stop the run, the RPO part falls apart? I don't know.

Anyway, you get the idea. If this keeps happening to us, we have to be able to install other types of plays that will then be successful against those specific defensive formations/alignments.

 

[Gophers1992]

To me Green was better. I liked that they used him in those situations as well. Always seemed to get decent yards.

Kramer actually has a much higher YPC

 

[Gophers1992]

No matter what, this is the truth of football: if you just do the same thing, over and over, on offense ... eventually some defensive guy is going to figure out a way to stop that particular thing.

The veer option was impossible to stop, back in the day. Until it wasn't. I believe the 3-4 was invented to stop that? Could be making that up, but you get the idea.


If we are really focusing on running (wide) zone + RPO slants, someone is going to figure out how to stop that. Maybe Purdue just did. Or maybe Bert had figured it out last year. Maybe if they sell out to stop the run, the RPO part falls apart? I don't know.

Anyway, you get the idea. If this keeps happening to us, we have to be able to install other types of plays that will then be successful against those specific defensive formations/alignments.

This was never the case.

 

[MNfootballfan]

Kramer actually has a much higher YPC

Pointless stats considering the position. I'd have to look up the stats but from memory the majority of Green's runs were 1 yard touchdown runs or 3rd/4th down conversions. Those 1-2 yard runs were highly effective and important but did not do much to his rushing average.

 

[Gophers_4life]

This was never the case.

Disagree

 

[Gophers1992]

Disagree

You're confusing "tons of teams ran this" with "impossible to stop"

 

[Gophers_4life]

You're confusing "tons of teams ran this" with "impossible to stop"

Not worth a semantics debate over the definition of impossible. Happy to change it to "it was a difficult offense to stop, until ...." (I think the 3-4 defense had a lot to do with it)

 

[FanSinceTheFifties]

I agree with Fleck. It was worth it. By making the 1st down, it would have demoralized Purdue and energized the Gophers. I agreed with the attempt at the time. You should be able to make one yard every time with a rushing-based offense. However, the wrong play was called and it wasn't executed properly. That really baffled me.

 

[GFBfan]

I agree with Fleck. It was worth it. By making the 1st down, it would have demoralized Purdue and energized the Gophers. I agreed with the attempt at the time. You should be able to make one yard every time with a rushing-based offense. However, the wrong play was called and it wasn't executed properly. That really baffled me.

I wasn’t fond of the play mainly due to the result so I don’t have a problem with the play, but there was a god opening to the left. Had Kramer just looked that direction he gains about 5 yards.

 

[Nomellini]

Sometimes I think Fleck is better at building a culture and a program than he is at in-game coaching. Still don't like leaving cornerstone players in the game while up 4-5 touchdowns as well as his tendency to let his blood get up in high risk-low reward situations..

 

[Gophergrandpa]

I beg to differ with PJ Fleck. Going for it on Fourth Down inside the Red Zone potentially contributed to the losses to BGSU last year and Purdue last weekend.

One extra victory last season would have impacted the fortunes of the Gophers in the Big Ten West significantly.

PJ goes for the 4th down deep in our own territory (violating football “conventional wisdom”) early in the game to break Purdue’s spirit. Is the cost of failure only 3 points? I think the cost includes unnecessarily breaking your own team’s spirit, and introducing self doubt should you fail. If you believe that success will have a materially damaging effect on your opponent’s psyche, then rationally you should acknowledge that failure will have a like damaging effect on your own team’s psyche. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction (Newton’s third law of motion).

 

[Triple D]

Sometimes I think Fleck is better at building a culture and a program than he is at in-game coaching. Still don't like leaving cornerstone players in the game while up 4-5 touchdowns as well as his tendency to let his blood get up in high risk-low reward situations..

Fleck wanted Mo in to help build his Heisman resume, but what he actually did is ruined any chance (however small) he may have had by getting him injured and costing him stats in at least one game (Purdue)

 

[Gophergrandpa]

I agree with Fleck. It was worth it. By making the 1st down, it would have demoralized Purdue and energized the Gophers. I agreed with the attempt at the time. You should be able to make one yard every time with a rushing-based offense. However, the wrong play was called and it wasn't executed properly. That really baffled me.

If you want one yard reliably, and your best OL man is your center, run a QB sneak. Don’t hike the ball to a guy sitting 4-5 yards behind the LOS. Then you need 5 yards forward to gain one yard. Then you give the opponent time to penetrate, especially if they are lined up in every gap to stop the run, perhaps outnumbering our OL. The TFL statistic is around because lots of teams can’t rely on getting one yard every time they run the ball.

 

[Gophergrandpa]

I mentioned it earlier, but I still don't think the lineman that flinched is in the neutral zone. No call was proper IMO. There was a replay during the telecast, close up and it does not look like he crossed the black line (which the refs do not have the benefit of seeing obviously).

What would have been best for the Gophers is for an offensive line to react to it, that would have forced the ref to make a call on Encroachment (Defense can't intentionally draw movement) or Illegal motion.

Either result would have been better for the Gophers. 1st and 10, drive continues or 4th and 6, Punt.

Purdue DL jump early, in our game an in at least one other game. Trying to guess count or snap — and blow through gap before OL can even move. Some offenses counter this tactic by putting QB under center and using a fake hard count. Draw DL “guesser” offsides and then snap ball. Free play plus penalty. Gotta have a “counter” to every chancy defensive tactic.