4* recruits in each of last six classes! Has Pitino turned the corner?

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bleedsmaroonandgold said:
I'm not a big recruiting rankings guy when it comes to coaching evaluation. I think they are most relevant in a coach's first couple years when they are coaching mostly the last guy's recruits (still an important skill),and then you can look and say things like "well, his first full class are freshmen, so we haven't seen much out if then yet, but I'm optimistic because they look good on paper, and the next class looks even better." Once a coach has his own guys becoming upper classmen, I'd rather evaluate his recruiting based on how well those recruits actually pan out.

Pitino has had some good ones. As noted above, Gabe and Murph were great gets. But what impresses me about them is not their stars, but the fact that they turned into productive B1G players.
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+1
 

GopherPete said:
Please, give it a rest. Why do you care? So what if Built truly hates the Gophers and his only intention in being here is to rip Pitino any chance he gets. Why let it bother you? I personally enjoy some of Built's insights, but if you don't, just block him.
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Ironically, BarnB is one of the few people here I have actually bothered to block.
So - I'd really appreciate it if people would stop quoting his posts. Thanks in advance.;)
 

As people know, I am a pretty staunch defender of Pitino on here, but a lot of that is by virtue of the vocal anti-Pitino crowd. In my humble opinion, I'm not sure Pitino has "turned the corner." I am skeptical of this year's freshman class. I won't be surprised if they are upgrades over the depth we had last season, but I am also not convinced they are building blocks for the future. This current recruiting class (2020), is poised to exceed the Oturu, Kalscheur one, which is pretty remarkable considering how good those two were last season. Nevertheless, I am still on a wait-and-see approach.

I'm surprised how some of the anti-Pitino posters in this thread are simultaneously calling Pitino a good recruiter but even a worse coach because he failed to win with such highly-regarded players. Based on my recollection, Pitino hasn't exactly brought in 4* or 5* guys every season. Our best players in the Pitino era were not even in the Top 100. Pitino has done a pretty good job at competing in the BiG10 with average BiG10 talent. We've won games against programs that have way higher standards when it comes to recruiting.

I'm not sure how to feel about this upcoming season. There's a lot of turnover. The only two players who are returning that had consistent minutes last season were Oturu and Kalscheur, and they were freshman. I wouldn't be shocked if we stumbled. At the same time, the media has consistently projected the Gophers to finish in the bottom of the BiG10 over the years, only for Pitino's squad to thoroughly beat expectations more than a couple of times. If Pitino makes the tournament this year, he deserves a contract extension, and the Pitino haters need to shut up. If we fall somewhere between 9-12 in the BiG10, I say we give him one more year to prove himself. Anything less we can have a conversation about Pitino's future.

Overall, this debate is really premature. If Pitino is able to land Garcia, then Pitino will be here until that kid declares for the NBA draft. And we might get an Elite8 banner in the process.
 

GopherPete said:
Please, give it a rest. Why do you care? So what if Built truly hates the Gophers and his only intention in being here is to rip Pitino any chance he gets. Why let it bother you? I personally enjoy some of Built's insights, but if you don't, just block him.
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I think Built's posts are in need of contrast. Challenging him. Why do you care if I challenge him? If you don't like it, block me.

You and Andersen appear ok with constant ridicule of RP by built. I am not.

You are OK with differing viewpoints from Built and not others. Good grief.
 


BarnBurner said:
I think Built's posts are in need of contrast. Challenging him. Why do you care if I challenge him? If you don't like it, block me.

You and Andersen appear ok with constant ridicule of RP by built. I am not.

You are OK with differing viewpoints from Built and not others. Good grief.
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Built is contributing to the conversation. As far as I can tell, you are just attacking him.
 

Lakers612 said:
As people know, I am a pretty staunch defender of Pitino on here, but a lot of that is by virtue of the vocal anti-Pitino crowd. In my humble opinion, I'm not sure Pitino has "turned the corner." I am skeptical of this year's freshman class. I won't be surprised if they are upgrades over the depth we had last season, but I am also not convinced they are building blocks for the future. This current recruiting class (2020), is poised to exceed the Oturu, Kalscheur one, which is pretty remarkable considering how good those two were last season. Nevertheless, I am still on a wait-and-see approach.

I'm surprised how some of the anti-Pitino posters in this thread are simultaneously calling Pitino a good recruiter but even a worse coach because he failed to win with such highly-regarded players. Based on my recollection, Pitino hasn't exactly brought in 4* or 5* guys every season. Our best players in the Pitino era were not even in the Top 100. Pitino has done a pretty good job at competing in the BiG10 with average BiG10 talent. We've won games against programs that have way higher standards when it comes to recruiting.

I'm not sure how to feel about this upcoming season. There's a lot of turnover. The only two players who are returning that had consistent minutes last season were Oturu and Kalscheur, and they were freshman. I wouldn't be shocked if we stumbled. At the same time, the media has consistently projected the Gophers to finish in the bottom of the BiG10 over the years, only for Pitino's squad to thoroughly beat expectations more than a couple of times. If Pitino makes the tournament this year, he deserves a contract extension, and the Pitino haters need to shut up. If we fall somewhere between 9-12 in the BiG10, I say we give him one more year to prove himself. Anything less we can have a conversation about Pitino's future.

Overall, this debate is really premature. If Pitino is able to land Garcia, then Pitino will be here until that kid declares for the NBA draft. And we might get an Elite8 banner in the process.
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Pretty much in line with my thoughts. I tend to believe coaches are made or broken on the recruiting trail. Post-recruiting not a huge amount of difference between most coaches. I think after recruiting Pitino has done an admirable job the last 3 seasons, especially considering the injury situations. One wonders what healthy teams could have accomplished. Have seen postseason appearances and teams that have improved over the course of the season. Also a COY award in there, which is nice and which I dont minimize. My concern has always been Pitino's recruiting. Seems like that is coming around. Agree with you that it is important that this year's class be a success. Need Williams and Ihnen to pop and Freeman and Greenlee to contribute. Then, if we get Garcia, will have stacked three excellent classes.
Don't think corner has been turned, do think we are on the right track. Time will tell. I do think Pitino's demeanor makes it easy to be in his corner. Feel the same way about Painter. Painter is willing to give other teams credit, seems humble, and seems approachable. My second favorite big ten coach for those reasons.
 


ltf said:
Pretty much in line with my thoughts. I tend to believe coaches are made or broken on the recruiting trail. Post-recruiting not a huge amount of difference between most coaches. I think after recruiting Pitino has done an admirable job the last 3 seasons, especially considering the injury situations. One wonders what healthy teams could have accomplished. Have seen postseason appearances and teams that have improved over the course of the season. Also a COY award in there, which is nice and which I dont minimize. My concern has always been Pitino's recruiting. Seems like that is coming around. Agree with you that it is important that this year's class be a success. Need Williams and Ihnen to pop and Freeman and Greenlee to contribute. Then, if we get Garcia, will have stacked three excellent classes.
Don't think corner has been turned, do think we are on the right track. Time will tell. I do think Pitino's demeanor makes it easy to be in his corner. Feel the same way about Painter. Painter is willing to give other teams credit, seems humble, and seems approachable. My second favorite big ten coach for those reasons.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.
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ltf said:
Pretty much in line with my thoughts. I tend to believe coaches are made or broken on the recruiting trail. Post-recruiting not a huge amount of difference between most coaches. I think after recruiting Pitino has done an admirable job the last 3 seasons, especially considering the injury situations. One wonders what healthy teams could have accomplished. Have seen postseason appearances and teams that have improved over the course of the season. Also a COY award in there, which is nice and which I dont minimize. My concern has always been Pitino's recruiting. Seems like that is coming around. Agree with you that it is important that this year's class be a success. Need Williams and Ihnen to pop and Freeman and Greenlee to contribute. Then, if we get Garcia, will have stacked three excellent classes.
Don't think corner has been turned, do think we are on the right track. Time will tell. I do think Pitino's demeanor makes it easy to be in his corner. Feel the same way about Painter. Painter is willing to give other teams credit, seems humble, and seems approachable. My second favorite big ten coach for those reasons.
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good post. I think there are reasons for optimism for this upcoming season. Carr and Willis have D1, Power 6 basketball experience. If one of Hurt, Omersa, or Demir establishes themselves as a worthy starter, I think we will be able to compete. Bonus points if Ihnen, Williams, Greenlee, and Freeman can contribute as freshman.
 


I don’t feel like starting a new thread. Has anyone heard if they’ll do an open scrimmage again this year? Have they released a date? Thanks!
 

Angry said:
I don’t feel like starting a new thread. Has anyone heard if they’ll do an open scrimmage again this year? Have they released a date? Thanks!
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I was wondering the same thing. I love that event, though it was even better under Tubby. It is usually early November, so I’m surprised we haven’t heard anything yet.


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bga1 said:
I agree with you on the recruits and he is a good recruiter. The difficulty he has had can in large part be put to misfortune with injuries and the Lynch issue. We would be looking at definitely three NCAAs in a row (never been done here) had he not had the huge run of bad luck two years back. I think he needs to continue to improve and he has improved. This year will show a lot as he has less star power but still a potentially good number of pieces. If he has reasonable luck this season will be a good measuring stick as to how he adapts to losing Murphy and Coffey. What finish in conference would cause you to say...hey he might just get 'er done here? I will say 7th or better this year is pretty darn solid. You? Thanks!
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I don't particularly care much about conference finish if it's not first - second or tenth mean about the same to me. What I care about is making the Tournament. If I'm Mark Coyle - given the (lack of) Tournament appearances in his first six years, he has to (at minimum) make the Tournament this year for me to even consider retaining him.
 

Moonlight said:
Ironically, BarnB is one of the few people here I have actually bothered to block.
So - I'd really appreciate it if people would stop quoting his posts. Thanks in advance.;)
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And i do not hate Pitino. I have and continue to support him and the program financially and otherwise. Have praised what he has done well and i am not afraid to point out where he has failed miserably. I would be critical of anyone that in 6 years has one 4th place finish, nothing else even close and not a single tournament run. I have not attacked anyone who has a different standard for success than i do.
 

Moonlight said:
Ironically, BarnB is one of the few people here I have actually bothered to block.
So - I'd really appreciate it if people would stop quoting his posts. Thanks in advance.;)
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You have blocked me? Praise the Lord. Moon is butt hurt about the political stuff. Too bad.
 

builtbadgers said:
And i do not hate Pitino. I have and continue to support him and the program financially and otherwise. Have praised what he has done well and i am not afraid to point out where he has failed miserably. I would be critical of anyone that in 6 years has one 4th place finish, nothing else even close and not a single tournament run. I have not attacked anyone who has a different standard for success than i do.
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And you refuse to answer the simple question or why you continually cite rp conference record in most of you posts. Telling.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I don't particularly care much about conference finish if it's not first - second or tenth mean about the same to me. What I care about is making the Tournament. If I'm Mark Coyle - given the (lack of) Tournament appearances in his first six years, he has to (at minimum) make the Tournament this year for me to even consider retaining him.
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Nailed it. Making the tournament annually should be the goal.
 

BarnBurner said:
And you refuse to answer the simple question or why you continually cite rp conference record in most of you posts. Telling.
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You said all of my posts, now most. Simply a lie. So many times p have pointed out what he has done well, just not afraid to say what he has done poorly by my standards. Not asking anyone to look at it from where i do, it is my observation.
 

Here is my bottom line:

if you have to ask whether a program has "turned the corner," the answer is no, it hasn't.

When a program turns the corner, everyone will know. it will be self-evident.
 

Personally I feel things are on the up. Granted I'm half way around the world and only see what is on tv or read on forums like this. I'm not close to the program or have inside information, but just a gut feeling things have improved beginning last year. Washington was a bust. Some blame coaching lack of development, some blame player attitude. I have no idea, but I think if he would have just been average, this team would be pretty good. When they don't bring in ultra high end talent year after year, then a bust really hurts the program, or injuries because nobody to replace them.
That being said, last year's freshmen, along with the newcomers this year could surprise a lot of people. Next year's freshmen if Garcia joins will be something to build around for the future.
A little long winded, but I think things will get better with a different recruiting approach the last couple years.
 
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builtbadgers said:
You said all of my posts, now most. Simply a lie. So many times p have pointed out what he has done well, just not afraid to say what he has done poorly by my standards. Not asking anyone to look at it from where i do, it is my observation.
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Most. That is accurate and consistent.

No attacks. Asking a simple question you will not answer. Why do you consistently cite rp conf record, built?
 

BarnBurner said:
Most. That is accurate and consistent.

No attacks. Asking a simple question you will not answer. Why do you consistently cite rp conf record, built?
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Burner, it is time for you to back off of built. It has become an obsession that is taking away your normal commentary about our Gophers.

Many of us have questioned built, he primarily looks at overall record for his opinion about Pitino. He will acknowledge some improvements here and there, but I think it still hangs on his overweighting of Pitino's "learning years".

After Richard adds another 3 or 4 consecutive tourney appearances with a couple of sweet sixteen or final fours, then Built will come around and call him an average coach....lol :) Oh wait, he has to win the B1G a couple of time also....
 

dpodoll68 said:
I don't particularly care much about conference finish if it's not first - second or tenth mean about the same to me. What I care about is making the Tournament. If I'm Mark Coyle - given the (lack of) Tournament appearances in his first six years, he has to (at minimum) make the Tournament this year for me to even consider retaining him.
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That's fair. I look at it a little differently. In the 95-96 year we missed the tournament but the potential was there for something really good in 96-97. Pitino has made it two of the last three years. If this year is just okay and they finish 8th-9th range, then Coyle will look to see how things set up for the following year. If he doesn't see something good going forward, he fires him. If he likes the future then he keeps him. It doesn't boil down to 1 or 2 wins and you stay or go, it is about what the future looks like versus other options. That said, I think we are going to surprise this year and make the tournament and I think we are a contender next year if we land Garcia.
 

First indications of any corner turning may be evident at today 's ISU scrimmage. Looking forward to the report.
 

dpodoll68 said:
I don't particularly care much about conference finish if it's not first - second or tenth mean about the same to me. What I care about is making the Tournament. If I'm Mark Coyle - given the (lack of) Tournament appearances in his first six years, he has to (at minimum) make the Tournament this year for me to even consider retaining him.
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BS. Watching sports is about enjoyment -- there's no way you enjoy watching us finish 10th as much as you enjoy watching us finish 2nd, even if both result in a tournament appearance. 10th also won't get you into the tournament, so poor example. Pitino has as many tournament victories as your lover. His victory came without the other team having just lost its best player, and his two losses came after just having lost his best player. Say we had won 1 more big game Pitino's first year and snuck into the tournament, meaning both coaches would have the same # of tournament appearances in 6 years -- then you would be on board with Pitino?
 

bga1 said:
That's fair. I look at it a little differently. In the 95-96 year we missed the tournament but the potential was there for something really good in 96-97. Pitino has made it two of the last three years. If this year is just okay and they finish 8th-9th range, then Coyle will look to see how things set up for the following year. If he doesn't see something good going forward, he fires him. If he likes the future then he keeps him. It doesn't boil down to 1 or 2 wins and you stay or go, it is about what the future looks like versus other options. That said, I think we are going to surprise this year and make the tournament and I think we are a contender next year if we land Garcia.
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So, if Coyle likes Pitino’s program he stays, if he doesn’t like Pitino’s program he goes.... got it. Great insight...lol

Pitino has brought in top 30-40 classes 4 out of the last 5 years, gone to the tournament 2 out of the last 3 years. Of course we expect better, but the current trend is good. He may have a top 20 class this year (at least top 30). The change in style of play this year should open several eyes once the grow into it. Just picking on you...

Just let the games play out and enjoy the season.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

alchemy2u said:
Burner, it is time for you to back off of built. It has become an obsession that is taking away your normal commentary about our Gophers.

Many of us have questioned built, he primarily looks at overall record for his opinion about Pitino. He will acknowledge some improvements here and there, but I think it still hangs on his overweighting of Pitino's "learning years".

After Richard adds another 3 or 4 consecutive tourney appearances with a couple of sweet sixteen or final fours, then Built will come around and call him an average coach....lol :) Oh wait, he has to win the B1G a couple of time also....
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You are right. However, built and his bs are tough to ignore. Don’t like attacks on our coach.
 

builtbadgers said:
And i do not hate Pitino. I have and continue to support him and the program financially and otherwise. Have praised what he has done well and i am not afraid to point out where he has failed miserably. I would be critical of anyone that in 6 years has one 4th place finish, nothing else even close and not a single tournament run. I have not attacked anyone who has a different standard for success than i do.
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Clarification: You may have misread my post. I haven't blocked you. I don't have time for BarnB's posts which almost universally contain no new ideas whatsoever and are focused on his thoughts, almost universally negative, about other posters rather than about basketball. It's a great time saver!!
I like reading people whose opinions on the team differ from mine, especially at the season outset.
 

underground629 said:
BS. Watching sports is about enjoyment -- there's no way you enjoy watching us finish 10th as much as you enjoy watching us finish 2nd, even if both result in a tournament appearance. 10th also won't get you into the tournament, so poor example. Pitino has as many tournament victories as your lover. His victory came without the other team having just lost its best player, and his two losses came after just having lost his best player. Say we had won 1 more big game Pitino's first year and snuck into the tournament, meaning both coaches would have the same # of tournament appearances in 6 years -- then you would be on board with Pitino?
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Yeah, that only makes sense if you don't watch the games. Maybe he doesn't?
 

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