Next 7 months

[JimmyJamesMD]

Pitino's next seven months will make him or break him.

Let's be blunt about Pitino's tenure. The reason he hasn't had sustained success is because his lack of depth. Too many misses in recruiting. Even his two NCAA tournament teams were thin. Last year, Lynch goes away and the team melts down. I know there were injuries with Mason and Curry and others. But the best programs have a next man up mentality because they have enough talent to come in the game and be competitive.

In summary, Pitino needs to build up his talent base. He has a lot of options in the spring; he needs to close out spring recruiting well so this team can have talent, have depth and be a tournament team again next season and begin to build some long term success.

Also, 7 months from now, the 2020 class will be committing and signing. Pitino needs to have a very good recruiting class for 2020. If he doesnt do well in spring 2019 recruiting and fall 2020 recruiting, Pitino will be on his way out and next season will be his last.

 

[cjbfbp]

Pitino's next seven months will make him or break him.

Let's be blunt about Pitino's tenure. The reason he hasn't had sustained success is because his lack of depth. Too many misses in recruiting.

Recruiting failure is not the only reason. He has also failed to develop the lesser players he has; instead he appears to prefer hard riding his most talented players and using the rest just for momentary breathers. You almost get the feeling he tells them "just play defense, box out, and don't turn the ball over." Hurt should be better than this after three years. Bakary should have been better as a senior. He was developing a fairly effective hook shot early in his soph year but, inexplicably, he pretty much stopped going to that for the rest of his career.

 

[ltf]

Very much agree with JJMD. Personally, I feel Pitino is a good coach and have been very impressed with how his players stick by him and play hard for him, even during difficult situations over the years. Upcoming recruiting, though, is the whole ballgame. The conference is becoming more rugged than ever and no amount of good coaching or player loyalty will overcome a lack of talent.

 

[RolGnav]

Recruiting failure is not the only reason. He has also failed to develop the lesser players he has; instead he appears to prefer hard riding his most talented players and using the rest just for momentary breathers. You almost get the feeling he tells them "just play defense, box out, and don't turn the ball over." Hurt should be better than this after three years. Bakary should have been better as a senior. He was developing a fairly effective hook shot early in his soph year but, inexplicably, he pretty much stopped going to that for the rest of his career.

+1

Coming out of High School, Hurt was definitely a D1 player... going into his senior year, he looks like a borderline D3 player. Not trying to talk down on Hurt, because I'm really leaning towards it being a coaching issue. And now, I'm worried we're witnessing that with IW. Pitino seems to be quick to hook and dog house the players he doesn't favor. Stull single handedly allowed a team to almost catch up, Pitino didn't even pull him out, but yet IW rarely sniffs the court. Is IW sometimes a detriment to the Gophers? Yes, but how better to fix that then to coach him up and give him game experience? Instead, he gets banned for almost the remainder of the season until yesterday. And he was basically the only eligible true point guard.

 

[Lakers612]

+1

Coming out of High School, Hurt was definitely a D1 player... going into his senior year, he looks like a borderline D3 player. Not trying to talk down on Hurt, because I'm really leaning towards it being a coaching issue. And now, I'm worried we're witnessing that with IW. Pitino seems to be quick to hook and dog house the players he doesn't favor. Stull single handedly allowed a team to almost catch up, Pitino didn't even pull him out, but yet IW rarely sniffs the court. Is IW sometimes a detriment to the Gophers? Yes, but how better to fix that then to coach him up and give him game experience? Instead, he gets banned for almost the remainder of the season until yesterday. And he was basically the only eligible true point guard.

it's really easy to paint Pitino as a poor developer when you single out his failures.. Pitino has turned two 3-star recruits into 1st Team All-Big10 players. No one could have predicted that Nate Mason or Jordan Murphy would become the players that they did for Minnesota. Doesn't Pitino get credit for that? Gabe Kalscheur looked like a senior at times this season. Doesn't Pitino get credit for that? Or does Pitino only get credit for recruiting those guys but no credit at all for player development?

 

[Goldteam]

Recruiting failure is not the only reason. He has also failed to develop the lesser players he has; instead he appears to prefer hard riding his most talented players and using the rest just for momentary breathers. You almost get the feeling he tells them "just play defense, box out, and don't turn the ball over." Hurt should be better than this after three years. Bakary should have been better as a senior. He was developing a fairly effective hook shot early in his soph year but, inexplicably, he pretty much stopped going to that for the rest of his career.

Hurt and Bakery are mechanical and would struggle anywhere.

Hurt can't put the ball on the floor and has a slow release from down low. This has nothing to do with Pitino.

Bakery was uncoordinated and clumsy. Nothing Pitino could really do about that.

 

[RolGnav]

it's really easy to paint Pitino as a poor developer when you single out his failures.. Pitino has turned two 3-star recruits into 1st Team All-Big10 players. No one could have predicted that Nate Mason or Jordan Murphy would become the players that they did for Minnesota. Doesn't Pitino get credit for that? Gabe Kalscheur looked like a senior at times this season. Doesn't Pitino get credit for that? Or does Pitino only get credit for recruiting those guys but no credit at all for player development?

Well, name one player that didn't have "it" as a freshman that he made into an All-B10 player? Mason already had "it" as a freshman. Murphy already had "it" as a freshman. Sometimes, talent and determination just takes a person to the next level. Did LeBron have a hall of fame coach or something in High School to make him great? Gabe has "it." Oturu has "it." Did Pitino have that much to do with them being good already? He was brilliant enough to recruit them, yes. But just natural progression should make them even better and even all-b10 in a couple years. I could have coached those players from my couch and they'd still end up as All-B10. Yes, Pitino gets some credit, but with that, you have to also admit that there are some that have showed little to no improvement... like Hurt.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

I would say beyond recruiting, it is more an issue of roster management. Recruiting two 'project' big men in the same year. having two transfers sitting out a year in the same season and not available.

I see people saying "the team doesn't have a bench," or "the team doesn't have a true point guard" and presenting that as reasons why the team didn't do better. Well, who is responsible for the bench? who recruits or doesn't recruit point guards? who decides whether to bring in transfers who have to sit out? The head coach and assistant coaches.

people are giving Pitino a pass on issues that he created or contributed to.

Look, I am NOT saying "fire the coach." I'm just saying hold the coach accountable for issues that he is directly responsible for.

 

[RolGnav]

I would say beyond recruiting, it is more an issue of roster management. Recruiting two 'project' big men in the same year. having two transfers sitting out a year in the same season and not available.

I see people saying "the team doesn't have a bench," or "the team doesn't have a true point guard" and presenting that as reasons why the team didn't do better. Well, who is responsible for the bench? who recruits or doesn't recruit point guards? who decides whether to bring in transfers who have to sit out? The head coach and assistant coaches.

people are giving Pitino a pass on issues that he created or contributed to.

Look, I am NOT saying "fire the coach." I'm just saying hold the coach accountable for issues that he is directly responsible for.

Exactly my argument and sentiments.

 

[jovs]

I would say beyond recruiting, it is more an issue of roster management. Recruiting two 'project' big men in the same year. having two transfers sitting out a year in the same season and not available.

I see people saying "the team doesn't have a bench," or "the team doesn't have a true point guard" and presenting that as reasons why the team didn't do better. Well, who is responsible for the bench? who recruits or doesn't recruit point guards? who decides whether to bring in transfers who have to sit out? The head coach and assistant coaches.

people are giving Pitino a pass on issues that he created or contributed to.

Look, I am NOT saying "fire the coach." I'm just saying hold the coach accountable for issues that he is directly responsible for.

I agree, we are staring down the barrel next year with the same issues, unless things change drastically in the next four weeks we will be one injury away from a 2-18 Big Ten record if the injury happens to be a big.

 

[alchemy2u]

Well, name one player that didn't have "it" as a freshman that he made into an All-B10 player? Mason already had "it" as a freshman. Murphy already had "it" as a freshman. Sometimes, talent and determination just takes a person to the next level. Did LeBron have a hall of fame coach or something in High School to make him great? Gabe has "it." Oturu has "it." Did Pitino have that much to do with them being good already? He was brilliant enough to recruit them, yes. But just natural progression should make them even better and even all-b10 in a couple years. I could have coached those players from my couch and they'd still end up as All-B10. Yes, Pitino gets some credit, but with that, you have to also admit that there are some that have showed little to no improvement... like Hurt.

If all of these players obviously had “it” then where were all the offers from Kentucky, Duke, etc? Why were they just 3 star players? Pitino had a lot to do with the development of those players. One of the major changes that Pitino instituted when he got here was individual player development skills in every practice. If Pitino didn’t repeatedly get on Coffey’s case this year about “when are they going to be talking about you as the guy?” he wouldn’t have gotten aggressive. Of course the players had the potential, but only a very few can do it on their own, even if you were the coach!


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[RolGnav]

If all of these players obviously had “it” then where were all the offers from Kentucky, Duke, etc? Why were they just 3 star players? Pitino had a lot to do with the development of those players. One of the major changes that Pitino instituted when he got here was individual player development skills in every practice. If Pitino didn’t repeatedly get on Coffey’s case this year about “when are they going to be talking about you as the guy?” he wouldn’t have gotten aggressive. Of course the players had the potential, but only a very few can do it on their own, even if you were the coach!


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Don't you think some players are overlooked because of whatever reason? And when I say they had "it," I don't mean hall of fame or whatever your argument is, I just meant you could already see they would be good as freshmen. So are you saying Pitino developed Gabe and Oturu? They're going to be good with or without Pitino. So coaching comes down to telling someone to be aggressive? wow, such an easy job. Coffey, if you want to play in the NBA, you gotta be aggressive! Can't believe his dad didn't tell him that and Pitino had to, right? And you're avoiding the other side of it... What happened to Hurt? What's happening to IW? How many scholarships did we waste on bench warmers who couldn't even contribute any minutes? I still have faith in that Pitino is still learning and maybe one day he will know how to shape his team/roster, but up till now, it's been nothing but mix-matched misfits.

 

[JimmyJamesMD]

I still question how hurt had so many d 1 offers

 

[Keyser Söze]

I still question how hurt had so many d 1 offers

He was a great shooter in high school. Shooting can be largely mental and clearly he has lost confidence.

 

[cjbfbp]

If all of these players obviously had “it” then where were all the offers from Kentucky, Duke, etc? Why were they just 3 star players?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thankfully, I didn't grow up in the internet age so I have a healthy skepticism about the information I read on it unless the information is produced by people with legitimate credentials.

Your argument is weak. Where were Damian Lilliard's offers from Kentucky and Duke? Where were Ja Morant's offers from those schools? He's a sophomore and he was expected to be a top 3 pick by early this season. Do you think that's due to the Murray State coach's efforts in a year and some months? Obviously, the internet mavens missed Lilliard and Morant. That's not surprising because these services are much like lazy college sophomores: they look up things on the internet and copy each other's work.

By latter stages of the non-conference portion of Murphy's freshman year, Murphy looked like the best player on the team. I remember being at the game when we lost to South Dakota (lost to both South Dakotas that year). When Murphy fouled out, the crowd let out a collective groan because they knew our chance to win just took a severe blow. Murphy had "it "when he came here. The fact that none of the services rated him as a 4 star player was because they all copied from the wrong people.

 

[builtbadgers]

I still question how hurt had so many d 1 offers

He had only 3 from the power 5 conferences and none from a winning program. That does not mean he was not worth a offer here. I thought he could become a good role player and in fact he has contributed to the program in meaningful ways behind the scenes.

 

[The Bubble]

Don't you think some players are overlooked because of whatever reason? And when I say they had "it," I don't mean hall of fame or whatever your argument is, I just meant you could already see they would be good as freshmen. So are you saying Pitino developed Gabe and Oturu? They're going to be good with or without Pitino. So coaching comes down to telling someone to be aggressive? wow, such an easy job. Coffey, if you want to play in the NBA, you gotta be aggressive! Can't believe his dad didn't tell him that and Pitino had to, right? And you're avoiding the other side of it... What happened to Hurt? What's happening to IW? How many scholarships did we waste on bench warmers who couldn't even contribute any minutes? I still have faith in that Pitino is still learning and maybe one day he will know how to shape his team/roster, but up till now, it's been nothing but mix-matched misfits.

If you believe that none of it is player development (which is wrong btw) then he has to be much better in recruiting than you give him credit for. To find Mason and Murphy two first team all big ten players is fantastic considering before Mason we had 1 Grier in the last 20 years. Depth and roster management are the biggest issues I have and I think he understands that now given the tweet his Dad sent out last night. During the middle of the big ten season I was ready to see him go but these last few weeks have shown me he is learning and his players fought hard regardless of results and we have some positive momentum back. But agree with this thread we need to get some good players to fill out 2019 and go at worst 2/5 of the Minnesota 2020 recruits to keep the positive momentum going.

 

[cjbfbp]

Don't you think some players are overlooked because of whatever reason?

Of course they are and you are correct but that weak argument is all these people have so they will continue to double down on it.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Thankfully, I didn't grow up in the internet age so I have a healthy skepticism about the information I read on it unless the information is produced by people with legitimate credentials.

Your argument is weak. Where were Damian Lilliard's offers from Kentucky and Duke? Where were Ja Morant's offers from those schools? He's a sophomore and he was expected to be a top 3 pick by early this season. Do you think that's due to the Murray State coach's efforts in a year and some months? Obviously, the internet mavens missed Lilliard and Morant. That's not surprising because these services are much like lazy college sophomores: they look up things on the internet and copy each other's work.

By latter stages of the non-conference portion of Murphy's freshman year, Murphy looked like the best player on the team. I remember being at the game when we lost to South Dakota (lost to both South Dakotas that year). When Murphy fouled out, the crowd let out a collective groan because they knew our chance to win just took a severe blow. Murphy had "it "when he came here. The fact that none of the services rated him as a 4 star player was because they all copied from the wrong people.

Do you have evidence of those services copying each other's work? Every high major coach in the country missed on those guy too, no? Is that because they're also like "lazy sophomores" who copy each other's offers?

Neither here nor there, but I wasn't aware that sophomores were lazier and more likely to copy each other's work than freshmen, juniors, or seniors.

 

[MennoSota]

+1

Coming out of High School, Hurt was definitely a D1 player... going into his senior year, he looks like a borderline D3 player. Not trying to talk down on Hurt, because I'm really leaning towards it being a coaching issue. And now, I'm worried we're witnessing that with IW. Pitino seems to be quick to hook and dog house the players he doesn't favor. Stull single handedly allowed a team to almost catch up, Pitino didn't even pull him out, but yet IW rarely sniffs the court. Is IW sometimes a detriment to the Gophers? Yes, but how better to fix that then to coach him up and give him game experience? Instead, he gets banned for almost the remainder of the season until yesterday. And he was basically the only eligible true point guard.

Hurt was never a B1G caliber player. Never. Getting him was solely an attempt to get the younger brother. It's no different than the Ellenson kids from Rice Lake.
I watched Hurt in high school. It was obvious he didn't have the skills to play a significant role at the B1G level, but keep up your pipe dream if you must.

 

[BballJones]

He had only 3 from the power 5 conferences and none from a winning program. That does not mean he was not worth a offer here. I thought he could become a good role player and in fact he has contributed to the program in meaningful ways behind the scenes.

Exactly. He's a good kid, smart kid and represents this program as well as anyone could hope from a player. He has not developed as a player unfortunately. But one reason this is so painful and obvious is because the Gophers continually have about 9 scholarship players that can play, whether it be eligibility or injuries. Michael would ideally just represent the Gophers on the first items I mentioned - not on the court.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Hurt was never a B1G caliber player. Never. Getting him was solely an attempt to get the younger brother. It's no different than the Ellenson kids from Rice Lake.
I watched Hurt in high school. It was obvious he didn't have the skills to play a significant role at the B1G level, but keep up your pipe dream if you must.

Each team gets 13 scholarships. Not every player is going to play a significant role. Sometimes less athletic players like Hurt can have some success as shooters off the bench and be worth one of those 13 scholarships. Shooters can't have success when they've lost all confidence though.

 

[cjbfbp]

Neither here nor there, but I wasn't aware that sophomores were lazier and more likely to copy each other's work than freshmen, juniors, or seniors.

I picked on sophomores because of the word "sophomoric."

 

[builtbadgers]

As many of you know i study several programs and few a truly deep. UVA is in trouble after number 8 because they red shirt. Duke suffers after 8. UNC can play 9, Kentucky 9, FSU plays 10 because of size and how they play. UW suffers after 7. Those are very strong programs. KU lost 3 players and got boatraced because they depth was not there. Kids pick coaches, programs and playing time. We got this roster because guys knew they would play right away !

 

[MennoSota]

Each team gets 13 scholarships. Not every player is going to play a significant role. Sometimes less athletic players like Hurt can have some success as shooters off the bench and be worth one of those 13 scholarships. Shooters can't have success when they've lost all confidence though.

Some are just good practice players, aka Isaiah Dahlman at Michigan State.

 

[cjbfbp]

Shooters can't have success when they've lost all confidence though.

Why do so many of our bench players look like they've lost confidence year after year? You are correct that there is nothing wrong with having a Hurt type player as an 11 to 13th man. Unfortunately, too often players of that general caliber are among our 7th to 9th men.

 

[Goldteam]

Hurt was never a B1G caliber player. Never. Getting him was solely an attempt to get the younger brother. It's no different than the Ellenson kids from Rice Lake.
I watched Hurt in high school. It was obvious he didn't have the skills to play a significant role at the B1G level, but keep up your pipe dream if you must.

Funny Story!

I posted that the older Hurt was not big 10 caliber 3 or 4 years ago on another site. Said he was too slow and wouldn't get his shot off. Nothing personal, but just what I happened to think.

Dad then comes and rips me a new one with all of his offers, etc. I never knew the dad was on the board. I just posted my opinion on a player from the one time I saw him. I couldn't have been more right if................

 

[cjbfbp]

We got this roster because guys knew they would play right away !

Well I guess we have at least that going for us. Hopefully, a couple of grad transfers will consider that a positive.

 

[Goldteam]

Why do so many of our bench players look like they've lost confidence year after year? You are correct that there is nothing wrong with having a Hurt type player as an 11 to 13th man. Unfortunately, too often players of that general caliber are among our 7th to 9th men.

They literally can't put the ball on the floor.

In fact it's kind of a team problem, but it's just brutal from the bench.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Funny Story!

I posted that the older Hurt was not big 10 caliber 3 or 4 years ago on another site. Said he was too slow and wouldn't get his shot off. Nothing personal, but just what I happened to think.

Dad then comes and rips me a new one with all of his offers, etc. I never knew the dad was on the board. I just posted my opinion on a player from the one time I saw him. I couldn't have been more right if................

You also think that the younger one is going to be a bust, so your opinion doesn't really mean anything.