Pitino and the state of the program

[Gopherbbdude]

Sorry 3 runner ups ..Hurt , Oturu, and Jarvis

 

[march madness]

Where top10 players in high school played and where they go to college? Unless they play in a blue blood state in high school a majority leave their state to play in college. I just put down ESPN's top 10 list but going 12 McDonald's all americans is similar.

2016: 7 left there state, 3 stayed at Duke, UCLA, & Mi. St
Giles nc stays for Duke
J Jackson Mich goes to Kansas
Tatum Missouri goes to Duke
Lonzo CA stays at UCLA
Bam NC goes to Kentucky
Fox Texas goes to Kentucky
Fultz MD goes to Wash
Miles MI stays at Mich ST
Monk AK went to Kentucky
Frank J UT went to Duke

2017: 9 left, Ayton stayed at AZ
Bagley AZ goes to Duke
Porter WA goes to Missouri
Ayton AZ stays at AZ
Babma NY goes to Texas
Carter GA goes to Duke
Duval DE goes to Duke
Sexton GA goes to Bama
Trent MN goes to Duke
Jaren J. IN goes to Mich ST.
Knox Fl goes to Kent

2018: 7 left, 2 stayed at IN and MD
RJ canada to Duke
Zion SC to Duke
Cam PA to Duke
Bol NV to OR
langford IN stays at IN
Little FL to UNC
K. johnson VA to Kent
Grimes TX to Kansas
Simmons no college...
J Smith MD stays at MD

Nobody is closing down borders in reference to these top players. (Tyus, Vaughn, Travis, Trent, Tre were not anomalies by "Leaving the state") You can try and do it and have better luck with players outside McDonald's all americans. Coffey ranked #32 stays home. Oturu stays home.

What does this hold for Hurt, Suggs, Garcia..if he keeps rising? I'd love to have them and you try and get them but to Blame Pitino for not "closing the borders" for losing on McDonald's all americans is ignoring the stats.

As a matter of fact I feel Michigan has been pretty successful without getting many McDonald's all americans, but getting those next ranked players who tend to stay 3-4 years (Hardaway, Burke, Irvin, Walton, Moritz, Poole, Stauskus)

 

[ltf]

Pitino is a good coach. Making the tournament or not I'd like to see another season.
The issues have been the roster decisions....way too many to list them all. Maybe the new assistants can provide better support in this regard. Willing to wait and see another year.
The two transfers, the three current freshmen, and incoming recruit all seem like a nice foundation going forward. (And IW has been excellent the last couple games) How we do with the 2020 guys is the make or break mark...doesn't necessarily need to be Minnesota kids for me only if whoever comes is better and is eligible to play.

Agreed. Have nice underclassmen must keep building on that for Pitino to remain. 100% he would be the first to agree with this. Hopefully a tourney run this year that encourages the 2020 guys. By the way, does anyone have any information where we stand with those guys?

 

[builtbadgers]

Gard has a "pretty special team" (I strongly disagree with this, but whatever), but the Gophers beat them in Madison, and we hate the Gophers team. Think about that.

They have been visited by a few Hall of fame coaches in the past two weeks and both were really impressed with the closeness and development of the team. Both called them a special team. We will find out as they are 7-3. I do not include me in hating the Gophers. I picked the Gophers to be a top 3 team in the conference and they still can be . Beat UW here and that will change everything.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Almost every college basketball fanbase says this. When this program hasn't dealt with suspensions or mass injuries, we are consistently a top 40 program. That's pretty good in my opinion. If the Gophers can have back to back good seasons, I think Pitino can establish a perennial top 25 program

The Gophers first four losses this year were by an average of 18.5 points. Three of the four teams are not very good. I think this team is all over the place more than most teams.

 

[PurplePride]

If he can get a commit from Hurt he needs to be extended.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

They have been visited by a few Hall of fame coaches in the past two weeks and both were really impressed with the closeness and development of the team. Both called them a special team. We will find out as they are 7-3. I do not include me in hating the Gophers. I picked the Gophers to be a top 3 team in the conference and they still can be . Beat UW here and that will change everything.

Lol. This is one of the funniest things I've read on this site. Thanks!

 

[ethomasp31]

I'm not stating opinions to you, I'm telling you what happened. Macura wanted a badger offer never got it. Tyus was playing with okafor at the next level and okafor had no interest in Minnesota regardless of coach. Vaughn was extremely close with an assistant on the tubby staff who's name escapes me, but that dream ended when staff was let go. Travis from what I heard at the time wanted to commit to Minnesota but his parents wanted him to go to Stanford, and he ultimately caved to their wishes.

Also hoiberg was never leaving ISU to come here and likely will be getting into NBA front office next year and if not will have Bluebloods(UCLA) after him. Flip had little interest in coaching college basketball.

Well thank for telling me what happened. Macura signed at the beginning of his senior year, like at the beginning of September. He had a pretty impressive list of schools offering him. Wisconsin ended up signing two players in that class....one of which was a 2-star player. Now maybe the Wisconsin offer would have never come....but if he was holding out for Wisconsin, he didn't hold out for very long.

 

[tikited]

Well when was the last time a B1G won the NCAA Tournament? Players were staying longer then, so you had a bigger connection to teams. Think of the great Duke teams with Laettner, Hurley and Hill, that UNLV team, Danny Manning, even the Fab 5. The one and done's have killed college basketball, or at least damaged it greatly. Like I said it was the Golden Age of college basketball. I remember when we first got cable tv, and we were able to watch the Big East Conference. Think of all those great teams!! I remember driving down to Arizona and listening to the NCAA tournament. Dean Smith had Carolina in the four corner offense running out the clock.

I also could swear the Gophers beat North Carolina back in the early 80's. I thought it was a USC Tournament....but they had Al Wood, I think Perkins and others....

It must have been the Cookie Holmes, Trent Tucker, Darryl Mitchell team.

Here were some of the players on the 81-82 UNC team. Man oh man. Michael Jordon-Sam Perkins-James Worthy-Jimmy Black-Matt Doherty. The year the Gophs beat UNC was 80-81. Al Wood instead of Jordan. The Gophers were lead by Bruce Kaupa of course..

 

[builtbadgers]

Where top10 players in high school played and where they go to college? Unless they play in a blue blood state in high school a majority leave their state to play in college. I just put down ESPN's top 10 list but going 12 McDonald's all americans is similar.

2016: 7 left there state, 3 stayed at Duke, UCLA, & Mi. St
Giles nc stays for Duke
J Jackson Mich goes to Kansas
Tatum Missouri goes to Duke
Lonzo CA stays at UCLA
Bam NC goes to Kentucky
Fox Texas goes to Kentucky
Fultz MD goes to Wash
Miles MI stays at Mich ST
Monk AK went to Kentucky
Frank J UT went to Duke

2017: 9 left, Ayton stayed at AZ
Bagley AZ goes to Duke
Porter WA goes to Missouri
Ayton AZ stays at AZ
Babma NY goes to Texas
Carter GA goes to Duke
Duval DE goes to Duke
Sexton GA goes to Bama
Trent MN goes to Duke
Jaren J. IN goes to Mich ST.
Knox Fl goes to Kent

2018: 7 left, 2 stayed at IN and MD
RJ canada to Duke
Zion SC to Duke
Cam PA to Duke
Bol NV to OR
langford IN stays at IN
Little FL to UNC
K. johnson VA to Kent
Grimes TX to Kansas
Simmons no college...
J Smith MD stays at MD

Nobody is closing down borders in reference to these top players. (Tyus, Vaughn, Travis, Trent, Tre were not anomalies by "Leaving the state") You can try and do it and have better luck with players outside McDonald's all americans. Coffey ranked #32 stays home. Oturu stays home.

What does this hold for Hurt, Suggs, Garcia..if he keeps rising? I'd love to have them and you try and get them but to Blame Pitino for not "closing the borders" for losing on McDonald's all americans is ignoring the stats.

As a matter of fact I feel Michigan has been pretty successful without getting many McDonald's all americans, but getting those next ranked players who tend to stay 3-4 years (Hardaway, Burke, Irvin, Walton, Moritz, Poole, Stauskus)

Great post ! Been tracking it for decades. Very few close borders. The critical factor is hiring those rare great coaches. People here think going to the tourney twice in 6 years even if your under .400 in a 6 year conference sample that your a good coach. Does that mean Monson was really good and Tubby even better ! In the 6 power conferences how many coaches would you honestly trade Pitino for ? Would you have him even 7th in the Big 10. All of us have a different idea of what good is and thus the never ending debate. For me, good is building a foundation that has a identifiable brand that you enhance all the time. I am from California and have never adapted to the idea that being below average is acceptable. Now with that said, i know how hard this job is but i have seen coaches take tougher jobs than this and win pretty damn big. It is just really hard to hire a great coach, not just here but anywhere, especially if you have no idea how to go about it. We have had horrible athletic directors until now.

 

[ethomasp31]

Where top10 players in high school played and where they go to college? Unless they play in a blue blood state in high school a majority leave their state to play in college. I just put down ESPN's top 10 list but going 12 McDonald's all americans is similar.

2016: 7 left there state, 3 stayed at Duke, UCLA, & Mi. St
Giles nc stays for Duke
J Jackson Mich goes to Kansas
Tatum Missouri goes to Duke
Lonzo CA stays at UCLA
Bam NC goes to Kentucky
Fox Texas goes to Kentucky
Fultz MD goes to Wash
Miles MI stays at Mich ST
Monk AK went to Kentucky
Frank J UT went to Duke

2017: 9 left, Ayton stayed at AZ
Bagley AZ goes to Duke
Porter WA goes to Missouri
Ayton AZ stays at AZ
Babma NY goes to Texas
Carter GA goes to Duke
Duval DE goes to Duke
Sexton GA goes to Bama
Trent MN goes to Duke
Jaren J. IN goes to Mich ST.
Knox Fl goes to Kent

2018: 7 left, 2 stayed at IN and MD
RJ canada to Duke
Zion SC to Duke
Cam PA to Duke
Bol NV to OR
langford IN stays at IN
Little FL to UNC
K. johnson VA to Kent
Grimes TX to Kansas
Simmons no college...
J Smith MD stays at MD

Nobody is closing down borders in reference to these top players. (Tyus, Vaughn, Travis, Trent, Tre were not anomalies by "Leaving the state") You can try and do it and have better luck with players outside McDonald's all americans. Coffey ranked #32 stays home. Oturu stays home.

What does this hold for Hurt, Suggs, Garcia..if he keeps rising? I'd love to have them and you try and get them but to Blame Pitino for not "closing the borders" for losing on McDonald's all americans is ignoring the stats.

As a matter of fact I feel Michigan has been pretty successful without getting many McDonald's all americans, but getting those next ranked players who tend to stay 3-4 years (Hardaway, Burke, Irvin, Walton, Moritz, Poole, Stauskus)

Tubby signed Royce who was rated higher than Travis...just saying. Going back to the topic of Clem.....back in the 90's, Clem would have had a chance to land those top players. The attitude we have now is that it is impossible to land those guys.

 

[golfing18now]

You go with "irrational fear of the unknown" and I'll go with "keep trying," and we'll compare outcomes after a period of time. That goes for any undertaking or enterprise.

It can work both ways obviously. A few years ago, the Indiana and Purdue coaches were both widely criticized and it appeared both schools were ready to move on. Clearly, Indiana made a different decision than Purdue. Pretty small sample size for sure but I'm not sure Indiana made the right choice. On the flip side, Purdue keeps chugging along.

 

[cemba99]

Also hoiberg was never leaving ISU to come here and likely will be getting into NBA front office next year and if not will have Bluebloods(UCLA) after him. Flip had little interest in coaching college basketball.

I was talking with someone who "supposedly was in the know" - he said we were actually pretty close to getting Flip for a coach. Claims there was interest, but could not come to agreement on a contract. Anyone else heard anything - or was this your typical happy hour BS?

 

[UpAndUnder43]

Tubby signed Royce who was rated higher than Travis...just saying. Going back to the topic of Clem.....back in the 90's, Clem would have had a chance to land those top players. The attitude we have no is that it is impossible to land those guys.

He would have had a chance. Just like the current coaching staff does. And Tubby did. And everyone else. Doesn't mean he would have. Why do we assume Clem would have been the albatross and done something no one outside of blue bloods does? Its hilarious to pretend like you have any idea what Clem might have done in a hypothetical like this.

 

[Gopherbbdude]

Where top10 players in high school played and where they go to college? Unless they play in a blue blood state in high school a majority leave their state to play in college. I just put down ESPN's top 10 list but going 12 McDonald's all americans is similar.

2016: 7 left there state, 3 stayed at Duke, UCLA, & Mi. St
Giles nc stays for Duke
J Jackson Mich goes to Kansas
Tatum Missouri goes to Duke
Lonzo CA stays at UCLA
Bam NC goes to Kentucky
Fox Texas goes to Kentucky
Fultz MD goes to Wash
Miles MI stays at Mich ST
Monk AK went to Kentucky
Frank J UT went to Duke

2017: 9 left, Ayton stayed at AZ
Bagley AZ goes to Duke
Porter WA goes to Missouri
Ayton AZ stays at AZ
Babma NY goes to Texas
Carter GA goes to Duke
Duval DE goes to Duke
Sexton GA goes to Bama
Trent MN goes to Duke
Jaren J. IN goes to Mich ST.
Knox Fl goes to Kent

2018: 7 left, 2 stayed at IN and MD
RJ canada to Duke
Zion SC to Duke
Cam PA to Duke
Bol NV to OR
langford IN stays at IN
Little FL to UNC
K. johnson VA to Kent
Grimes TX to Kansas
Simmons no college...
J Smith MD stays at MD

Nobody is closing down borders in reference to these top players. (Tyus, Vaughn, Travis, Trent, Tre were not anomalies by "Leaving the state") You can try and do it and have better luck with players outside McDonald's all americans. Coffey ranked #32 stays home. Oturu stays home.

What does this hold for Hurt, Suggs, Garcia..if he keeps rising? I'd love to have them and you try and get them but to Blame Pitino for not "closing the borders" for losing on McDonald's all americans is ignoring the stats.

As a matter of fact I feel Michigan has been pretty successful without getting many McDonald's all americans, but getting those next ranked players who tend to stay 3-4 years (Hardaway, Burke, Irvin, Walton, Moritz, Poole, Stauskus)

Great Post! thanks

 

[Gopherbbdude]

I would love to see the stats of long tenured coaches vs. short term ones ….. on the quality of recruits they get.

 

[golfing18now]

If he can get a commit from Hurt he needs to be extended.

Whether or not he gets one year of Matthew Hurt (or any other recruit) should not be the basis of the decision to extend or let him go.

 

[GuyFawkes]

Well thank for telling me what happened. Macura signed at the beginning of his senior year, like at the beginning of September. He had a pretty impressive list of schools offering him. Wisconsin ended up signing two players in that class....one of which was a 2-star player. Now maybe the Wisconsin offer would have never come....but if he was holding out for Wisconsin, he didn't hold out for very long.

Macura's ego got the best of him, Badgers wanted to do a wait and see approach with him because they were after bigger fish and we're limited on scholarships. JP and his family took it as an insult and moved on, you have to remember JP didn't really blow up until the summer before his senior year.

Speaking of which you brought up local player misses for pitino, you should slck check out all the local Wisconsin players the Badgers missed out on post TWO final four runs.

 

[bga1]

Tubby signed Royce who was rated higher than Travis...just saying. Going back to the topic of Clem.....back in the 90's, Clem would have had a chance to land those top players. The attitude we have now is that it is impossible to land those guys.

Clem certainly nailed down El Amin....

 

[howeda7]

Clem certainly nailed down El Amin....

isn't the rumor that he had him but Archambeau or someone got in a fight with him during his official visit?

 

[Go Gophs]

three starters are from MN-- not many Power 5 programs have 3 in-state kids starting (just a guess)

Michael Hurt was Mr. Basketball MN runner-up
Jarvis Johnson was a big-time get for Pitino at the time
Jarvis Omersa will be good

a couple of his misses have turned out pretty well-- Illikanin turned him down, we end up with Jordan Murphy, I think Jarvis Johnson's scholarship turned into Eric Curry. Tum Tum Nairn passed, we end up with Nate Mason.
The big 4 from 2014 wasn't realistic- maybe could have gotten Macura if he would have gone after him hard, the other 3 were pretty well set.
Tre Jones has been a Duke fan since long before Tyus went there.
Gary Trent Jr and Rashad Vaugh only had the NBA in mind- not sure how we would react to one & dones- would like to try it with Matthew Hurt though
McKinley Wright had an offer sitting on the table for months- didn't want it. David Roddy in the same category.

a couple of the misses have been glaring though, but that comes with being young and desperate -- BK & Gas funneled our way through the Greece trip, Dorsey was trouble before school began, the kid from Maryland didn't know what a gift he had been given, Josh Martin was just a miss

I'll give you Pitino has done decent, but those 3 are not the ones to prove your point with. Michael Hurt is showing he is D2 quality, Jarvis Johnson never played a game for this program and Jarvis Omersa will never be more than program filler, 10-12 minutes per game type player.

 

[Go Gophs]

Clem certainly nailed down El Amin....

He didn't obviously.

There were mostly good players here though througout most of his tenure. I'm not on the change coaches all the time bandwagon by any means, I want Pitino to stay. But to even have him in the same breath as Clem is a travesty. Clem might have been the best coach the U ever had. His teams were tough, played their butts off and the barn was not to be messed with. Teams didn't win there often no matter who they were. That place was also always "rockin" when I went. It hasn't been the same since he left and that's a fact.

 

[bga1]

He didn't obviously.

There were mostly good players here though througout most of his tenure. I'm not on the change coaches all the time bandwagon by any means, I want Pitino to stay. But to even have him in the same breath as Clem is a travesty. Clem might have been the best coach the U ever had. His teams were tough, played their butts off and the barn was not to be messed with. Teams didn't win there often no matter who they were. That place was also always "rockin" when I went. It hasn't been the same since he left and that's a fact.

Clem was a decent recruiter but a great developer. The talent in the state stunk during Clem's years- I was teasing about El Amin because he was the best thing to come out of the state in about 15 years. Clem nearly got him and he might have gotten a natty with El Amin. I believe Clem missed on Troy Bell who became an outstanding player but not too many others.

My point was not that Pitino ranks with the Clem we remember. He doesn't. My point is that Pitino is young and his record despite our fond memories is statistically the same almost to the number as Clem's was. And there were plenty of people who were questioning whether Clem was the right guy in the mid 90's before the final four run. I loved Clem and I think he was great here and got a bad rap in the scandal- which was nothing at all compared with North Carolina and some of the current scandals that are going to result in nothing.

 

[theczar]

Needs to dance this season or get a good class ...both will require improvement

 

[cjbfbp]

Hardly a restart with Bo, the previous regime went to the tourney the year before and left behind Mike Wilkinson, Kirk Penney, Tony Bennett on hand who landed Devin Harris and Alando Tucker for Bo to win the the conference in year one ! The second was fairly severe because of the uncertainty of Ryan which left a upperclass void felt last year anf this year in very shallow classes. One off year and Gard is rolling now with a pretty special team.

You took my post a bit too seriously. I was making a flippant remark in response to absurd logic from another poster. I know you enjoy lecturing but the effort was misplaced here.

 

[Holy Man]

Clem was a decent recruiter but a great developer. The talent in the state stunk during Clem's years- I was teasing about El Amin because he was the best thing to come out of the state in about 15 years. Clem nearly got him and he might have gotten a natty with El Amin. I believe Clem missed on Troy Bell who became an outstanding player but not too many others.

My point was not that Pitino ranks with the Clem we remember. He doesn't. My point is that Pitino is young and his record despite our fond memories is statistically the same almost to the number as Clem's was. And there were plenty of people who were questioning whether Clem was the right guy in the mid 90's before the final four run. I loved Clem and I think he was great here and got a bad rap in the scandal- which was nothing at all compared with North Carolina and some of the current scandals that are going to result in nothing.

I’m not going to lay into you about the validity of the Pitino Clem comparison but I will say that era comparisons are difficult if not impossible. Clem developed players in a time you could be reasonably certain they would stay for four years. That just isn’t the case. The arena environment was created in a time when TV didn’t completely dominate scheduling and there weren’t more ads in the arena than on TV. It was also a time when students in general went to games for something to do and not just when the team was good. The tenure of players and the conference at its height made it fantastic entertainment every night. I’m not sure that will or even can come back. It’s a whole different world now and it would be great to recover some of what was but it is hard to see it ever back completely with all the limitations. To hold Pitino to those standards isn’t fair.

For all the young out there, Khalid committed as a sophomore to the Gophers, a rarity at the time. He ended up having some personal maturity problems and got cold cocked by Archambault and reneged on his commitment. The rest is history.

 

[bc2211]

Tubby signed Royce who was rated higher than Travis...just saying. Going back to the topic of Clem.....back in the 90's, Clem would have had a chance to land those top players. The attitude we have now is that it is impossible to land those guys.

Didn’t Royce commit without an offer? The kid was coming to the U regardless of who was coach.


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[dtrain19]

These topics always intrigue me. Yes, there are many things that one can criticize Pitino for in his tenure. But if last year plays out with a healthy and eligible squad like it should’ve we would have had back to back tourney appearances, likely a tourney win or more, and recruiting on the uptick. You can lay some blame on Pitino for bringing Lynch here I suppose although I didn’t hear many complaints the year we made the tourney. But losing Curry and Coffey to injury and having Dupree and Mason fighting through the year not at 100% is not on the head coach. So if we imagine last year was a success the trajectory for this program would be climbing and any discussion of the head coach and his future would be moot. I’ll hang up and wait for the known experts here to rip me apart.


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[bga1]

I’m not going to lay into you about the validity of the Pitino Clem comparison but I will say that era comparisons are difficult if not impossible. Clem developed players in a time you could be reasonably certain they would stay for four years. That just isn’t the case. The arena environment was created in a time when TV didn’t completely dominate scheduling and there weren’t more ads in the arena than on TV. It was also a time when students in general went to games for something to do and not just when the team was good. The tenure of players and the conference at its height made it fantastic entertainment every night. I’m not sure that will or even can come back. It’s a whole different world now and it would be great to recover some of what was but it is hard to see it ever back completely with all the limitations. To hold Pitino to those standards isn’t fair.

For all the young out there, Khalid committed as a sophomore to the Gophers, a rarity at the time. He ended up having some personal maturity problems and got cold cocked by Archambault and reneged on his commitment. The rest is history.

I probably should have never raised the Clem comparison because it takes away from the central point. Again, I didn't do it because I feel like they are the same- the point is that Pitino's numbers while not great are exactly the same. People constantly point to the win loss record and say that the numbers tell the whole story. They don't.

 

[rockford]

But if last year plays out with a healthy and eligible squad like it should’ve we would have had back to back tourney appearances, likely a tourney win or more, and recruiting on the uptick. You can lay some blame on Pitino for bringing Lynch here I suppose although I didn’t hear many complaints the year we made the tourney. But losing Curry and Coffey to injury and having Dupree and Mason fighting through the year not at 100% is not on the head coach. So if we imagine last year was a success the trajectory for this program would be climbing and any discussion of the head coach and his future would be moot. I’ll hang up and wait for the known experts here to rip me apart.

I'm an unknown inexpert, but I'll back you up.

TL;DR version: Pitino is in NO jeopardy, nor should he be.

JTG