If you’re Coyle, why do u keep Pitino

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GopherHoopsFan said:
- He just landed the best in-state recruiting class probably ever. For all of the petty griping that people do on here, he landed your precious in state talent, so seriously, get on board or shut the H*LL up.
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Some of your post I agree with, your name calling and tone is uncalled for, but this statement above is just flat out wrong.

Monson had a class of Rickert, Holman and Hargrow that was much more highly rated than this one and all in-state.

Tubby had a class of Royce, Rodney and Trevor that was much more highly rated than this one, and those three were in-state (in addition to Cobbs).

That's just off the top of my head. This incoming class doesn't even approach those two classes.

Heck, the class of Amir and Hurt is relatively on the same level as the in-coming class, at least of the top two players.

So we have quickly established that the last two coaches have had better in-state classes than the one coming in, let alone digging back even more, and nowhere near approaching "the best in-state class ever."

That doesn't mean I'm not excited about the in-coming class (I am) but that take is wildly wrong.

Go Gophers!!
 

Bad Gopher said:
This is the answer. You never fire a coach based on one season, especially considering this season's circumstances. He deserves a chance with next year's incoming class. The question is, what are reasonable expectations? I think the NCAA's are too much to expect with next year's youth and inexperience. So let's say they make the NIT in year 6 with another sub .500 conference record and with hopes to go to the dance in year 7. In all honesty, does that excite the fan base? Is that a palatable year 7 status report and body of work?

I don't mind admitting that this is a conundrum. Perhaps much of the question has to be whether Coyle goes to practice and observes good coaching or whether he watches the games and sees a fundamentally sound and disciplined team that defends and rebounds with good technique. I must admit, based on what I know about basketball, I don't see that.
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Coyle laid out in his presser introducing Fleck his expectations for what success should be for Gopher athletics. Pitino really has had only two successful seasons here, last year and his first.
 

CentralGopher said:
Meh. I guess his reason would be that there isn't a good reason to fire him this year. Not really a hot take or anything but most reasonable people can see how handicapped he is this year. It's a complete knee jerk reaction to start this thread after a loss when we had only 7 or 8 scholarship players even available and one of which is pretty much useless but was kept because at the time we needed the extra body to even field a team.


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My problem with Pitino is his roster management. We have no Depth at SF or C even with a full roster. We took flyers on way too many transfers & never just built a roster. We only have 2 freshmen on the roster so there should be depth for a couple injuries or suspensions. Why did we sign Stockman for 1 year that's not good roster management. That is Pitino biggest issue. This is year 6 and please explain to me the point of giving him a year 7 we don't have no high impact recruits that will just be game changers right away & we will be a NIT probably next year so explain the point of giving Pitino a 7th year. Let's just take last season away. Would we all say he deserve another year?
 


Some Day...Maybe said:
Basketball coach completing his 5th season is 30-53 and might end up 30-60. His players whine more than children and display little mental toughness. Only in programs like Minnesota does he stick around.

As for the football coach? What power 5 schools have any interest in Claeys as a head coach? He’ll never be a head coach at a power 5 because no competent AD will ever hire him. He’s a like able guy who did very well as a DC under Jerry Kill. Face the facts, Kill built that team and it was the system and longevity of the staff that led to that 9 win season. Coyle averted a disaster. Look at how Claeys one true recruiting class was shaping up. You’re a fool if you think any good AD at any D1 program would chose Claeys over Fleck.


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Huh, he only had one "true" recruiting class. He just beat a solid, pass happy, WSU team with a depleted secondary. Was 2-0 in bowl games, and didn't have an opportunity to recruit after the bowl win.

Fleck seems to be a great hire, but we really have no idea how coach Claeys would have done.
 


The correct answer to this question is the buyout.

I think we'll bring him back next year, but I wouldn't put it past Coyle to try to get ahead of it like he did with the football situation. The reality is that next year's team looks like a NIT team. It might be better to swallow the $5M pill and bring in a new voice while this still looks like a halfway decent job. If there is someone out there this year who we really want (like how Coyle really wanted PJ) then let's just make the move sooner rather than too late.

There are two teams with worse B1G records than us since Pitino became HC. Penn State and Rutgers. That's it. People on here like to make fun of Tim Miles, and even he has a significantly better B1G record than Pitino. If keeping Pitino is not the definition of accepting mediocrity then I don't know what is.
 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want to fire a coach a year after winning Big Ten Coach of the Year because the team is struggling after missing 3 of their top 6 players while one of their other top players isn't even practicing because of an injury, then you are either haven't been paying attention or you aren't capable of thinking logically.
 

bizzle22 said:
The correct answer to this question is the buyout.

I think we'll bring him back next year, but I wouldn't put it past Coyle to try to get ahead of it like he did with the football situation. The reality is that next year's team looks like a NIT team. It might be better to swallow the $5M pill and bring in a new voice while this still looks like a halfway decent job. If there is someone out there this year who we really want (like how Coyle really wanted PJ) then let's just make the move sooner rather than too late.

There are two teams with worse B1G records than us since Pitino became HC. Penn State and Rutgers. That's it. People on here like to make fun of Tim Miles, and even he has a significantly better B1G record than Pitino. If keeping Pitino is not the definition of accepting mediocrity then I don't know what is.
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Agree
 

Keyser Söze said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want to fire a coach a year after winning Big Ten Coach of the Year because the team is struggling after missing 3 of their top 6 players while one of their other top players isn't even practicing because of an injury, then you are either haven't been paying attention or you aren't capable of thinking logically.
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I don't think most who want to fire him are saying that just because of this year. Look at the body of work.
 



Keyser Söze said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want to fire a coach a year after winning Big Ten Coach of the Year because the team is struggling after missing 3 of their top 6 players while one of their other top players isn't even practicing because of an injury, then you are either haven't been paying attention or you aren't capable of thinking logically.
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Paying attention to what. Look at our big man depth. Our top bigs were already foul prone & all we had to back that up was Gaston & Bakary. Taking to project bigs in one class was foolish. Then we never added 4 year players to develop instead we kept going after transfers (Stockman, Fitzgerald, Lynch, Springs). Springs worked out but it was a 1 year rental. Reggie was good for us also but he was just a band aid for the big miss with Konate & Gaston. I just don't like how addressed recruiting balance.
 

BleedGopher said:
Some of your post I agree with, your name calling and tone is uncalled for, but this statement above is just flat out wrong.

Monson had a class of Rickert, Holman and Hargrow that was much more highly rated than this one and all in-state.

Tubby had a class of Royce, Rodney and Trevor that was much more highly rated than this one, and those three were in-state (in addition to Cobbs).

That's just off the top of my head. This incoming class doesn't even approach those two classes.

Heck, the class of Amir and Hurt is relatively on the same level as the in-coming class, at least of the top two players.

So we have quickly established that the last two coaches have had better in-state classes than the one coming in, let alone digging back even more, and nowhere near approaching "the best in-state class ever."

That doesn't mean I'm not excited about the in-coming class (I am) but that take is wildly wrong.

Go Gophers!!
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I disagree, I think my tone is spot on, and I'll double down on it. As for the name calling, were you upset with my decision to call posters "naysayers" or "people"? I did say to shut the H*LL up, I will stand by that. There are too many posters on here that completely lack foresight. I do guarantee failure with a different coach. What in our history would suggest that we'll be able to land a highly regarded coach?

Also, I didn't say "highest rated" recruiting class, I said "best", and "probably". Boy, how did that Royce White, Rodney Williams, Trevor Mbakwe class turn out? That translated to all of what, one NCAA tourney win, and Royce never suited up for the Gophers.

How many NCAA wins did that Monson class bring in?

Also, comparing Michael Hurt to Omersa and Kalscheur is "wildly wrong". I'd be willing to bet money that if the pieces stay in place, this class will deliver greater success than any of these other recent "local" recruiting classes.
 

GopherHoopsFan said:
I disagree, I think my tone is spot on, and I'll double down on it. As for the name calling, were you upset with my decision to call posters "naysayers" or "people"? I did say to shut the H*LL up, I will stand by that. There are too many posters on here that completely lack foresight. I do guarantee failure with a different coach. What in our history would suggest that we'll be able to land a highly regarded coach?

Also, I didn't say "highest rated" recruiting class, I said "best", and "probably". Boy, how did that Royce White, Rodney Williams, Trevor Mbakwe class turn out? That translated to all of what, one NCAA tourney win, and Royce never suited up for the Gophers.

How many NCAA wins did that Monson class bring in?

Also, comparing Michael Hurt to Omersa and Kalscheur is "wildly wrong". I'd be willing to bet money that if the pieces stay in place, this class will deliver greater success than any of these other recent "local" recruiting classes.
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I think you make a good argument for why it is silly to keep a coach simply because of a recruiting class. As you said, highly touted recruiting classes often don't pan out.

Don't think anyone is comparing Hurt, Kalscheur, and Omersa as players. More just in terms of recruiting rankings. They all had very similar composite rankings.

Hurt -- ranked #216 in 2016 class
Omersa -- ranked #190 in 2018 class
Kalscheur -- ranked #197 in 2018 class

Those rankings look pretty similar to me.

I'm not one who really cares if our recruits are local or not, but I'd like to see us finally pick off one of these local top 25 rated day one difference makers (Jones x2, Travis, Vaughn, Trent, Henry Ellenson, Matthew Hurt) at some point. I understand we can't get all or even most of them, but just one would be nice especially since in the last 5 years or so there have been more than usual within a 90 min drive of Williams Arena.
 

GopherPlaya said:
My problem with Pitino is his roster management. We have no Depth at SF or C even with a full roster. We took flyers on way too many transfers & never just built a roster. We only have 2 freshmen on the roster so there should be depth for a couple injuries or suspensions. Why did we sign Stockman for 1 year that's not good roster management. That is Pitino biggest issue. This is year 6 and please explain to me the point of giving him a year 7 we don't have no high impact recruits that will just be game changers right away & we will be a NIT probably next year so explain the point of giving Pitino a 7th year. Let's just take last season away. Would we all say he deserve another year?
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Can't dispute most of that at all. I also think he took too many fliers but based on the roster when he took over he didn't have a lot of choices. It was that or bank it a year for a better recruit. He made a gut decision I guess. This team had nothing for players in his second year because of the previous coaches inability to get better recruits. Pitino did what he thought was best. As far as not having impact recruits next year I think at worst that's debatable and at best you are dead wrong on all of them.


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I'd like to see what happens in the offseason (any transfers) and then next year.

The injuries and suspension is mostly beyond his control. My issue has been how the team has played (lack of hustle, no defense, players complaining all the time). The body language is awful at times.
 

GopherHoopsFan said:
I disagree, I think my tone is spot on, and I'll double down on it. As for the name calling, were you upset with my decision to call posters "naysayers" or "people"? I did say to shut the H*LL up, I will stand by that. There are too many posters on here that completely lack foresight. I do guarantee failure with a different coach. What in our history would suggest that we'll be able to land a highly regarded coach?

Also, I didn't say "highest rated" recruiting class, I said "best", and "probably". Boy, how did that Royce White, Rodney Williams, Trevor Mbakwe class turn out? That translated to all of what, one NCAA tourney win, and Royce never suited up for the Gophers.

How many NCAA wins did that Monson class bring in?

Also, comparing Michael Hurt to Omersa and Kalscheur is "wildly wrong". I'd be willing to bet money that if the pieces stay in place, this class will deliver greater success than any of these other recent "local" recruiting classes.
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I think part of Bleed's exact point is that we've seen higher rated classes both in terms of individual talent and collective rating that have failed to produce at a big-time level. And if that's the case, then it's a valid point.

As to next year's class, I like it on paper. But right now that's all it is, a good class on paper. Everything regarding next year's class is talked about in terms of potential. Not sure that qualifies as foresight or simply hope for the future.

As for firing Pitino, I'm not there yet for a few reasons. And I doubt Coyle is either.

First and foremost, the team figures to return the bulk of the team for next year, although there are certainly gaping holes on this and next year's roster. If the freshmen can blend in and get somewhere between 10-20 quality minutes a game, then I'm willing to see what happens.

Also, there's what whole buyout thing, which is undoubtedly going to be a factor no matter how much people want to disregard it. Add to that the newly updated facilities and I figure Coyle will gave him a little more time. How much time is the question.

One thing is becoming clear however: The program can't keep performing like this in coming years.
 

CentralGopher said:
Can't dispute most of that at all. I also think he took too many fliers but based on the roster when he took over he didn't have a lot of choices. It was that or bank it a year for a better recruit. He made a gut decision I guess. This team had nothing for players in his second year because of the previous coaches inability to get better recruits. Pitino did what he thought was best. As far as not having impact recruits next year I think at worst that's debatable and at best you are dead wrong on all of them.


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When I say impact recruits, I mean year one contributors. None of those players are that except maybe Oturo but he is more of the Reggie Lynch defensive impact not someone who change the outlook for next year.
 

And I guess for those pointing out the "bad luck" factor in terms of injuries and suspensions, I'd add that RP has also caught some breaks along the way. For one, we were insanely healthy last year. Our top 7 guys missed a grand total of 4 games. That's pretty lucky. And also, Jordan Murphy wouldn't even be here if Shaka Smart didn't take the Texas job. He was signed with VCU and they released him from his LOI after Shaka went to the Longhorns. We were very lucky to get him.
 

You don't fire Pitino after this year regardless of the buyout given all the things that have happened this season. But he needs to have a good season next year, and if he doesn't it may be time to make the change. But this year has been far too crazy from and injury/suspension standpoint to fire the coach.
 

Bad Gopher said:
This is the answer. You never fire a coach based on one season, especially considering this season's circumstances. He deserves a chance with next year's incoming class. The question is, what are reasonable expectations? I think the NCAA's are too much to expect with next year's youth and inexperience. So let's say they make the NIT in year 6 with another sub .500 conference record and with hopes to go to the dance in year 7. In all honesty, does that excite the fan base? Is that a palatable year 7 status report and body of work?

I don't mind admitting that this is a conundrum. Perhaps much of the question has to be whether Coyle goes to practice and observes good coaching or whether he watches the games and sees a fundamentally sound and disciplined team that defends and rebounds with good technique. I must admit, based on what I know about basketball, I don't see that.
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I agree. But that's not where we are. The fact that this year has turned into a repeat of 2 years ago is the issue. One good season out of 5 doesn't cut it. And if we had a top 10 recruiting class coming to save the day, that would be one thing. We don't. You're acknowledging the NCAA's next year is probably a stretch. I agree. And I think there's almost no chance he survives to year 7 in that case. So why drag it out then?
 

GophersInIowa said:
I'd like to see what happens in the offseason (any transfers) and then next year.

The injuries and suspension is mostly beyond his control. My issue has been how the team has played (lack of hustle, no defense, players complaining all the time). The body language is awful at times.
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When is the last time we didn't have at least one transfer?
 

dpodoll68 said:
Going from DB coach at Minnesota to DB coach at Texas A&M is not a "lateral at best" move.
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If it were that simple it would be lateral imo. What criteria are we deciding on? The conference, the quality of living, the opportunity to be a football power, the salary?
However, at Minnesota he was not just a DB coach. He was the assistant Head Coach. That means he is a heartbeat away from being the head coach at Minnesota. I'd say that is a prestigious position? Is that one of the reasons Warinner left to accept a non-field coaching position? He thought that title should have gone to him? Or does it mean nothing? No prestige, no salary bump, no opportunity?
He does not have the same stature at Texas A&M.
 

As far as in-state recruits, being a little older, I remember in-state recruits with names like Olberding, Landsberger, Mc Hale, Breuer, etc. Not to mention Kevin Lynch, Sam Jacobson, etc. Oh, and a guy named Jim Peterson. You young kids may know him as a TV analyst. he was also the 1st McDonald's All-American player from MN. Are any of the incoming recruits a Mc Donald's All-American?

Look - Oturu may be a really good player. But if this turns out to be one of the best in-state recruiting classes ever, then the Gophers had better win a B1G title and make an NCAA tournament run in the next 4 years.

Again, the incoming players appear to have talent. I'm not arguing that. I'm just suggesting that people might want to keep their expectations within reason. There were people a year ago drooling about what "Jelly" was going to do. going from HS to the B1G is a big jump. It make take 1, 2, or all 3 of the recruits time to become comfortable playing at this level.

My point - if you are counting on true FR to turn the program around, that is a bet I would not make with my own money. Unless at least one of those true FR is a difference-maker in the mold of Tyus Jones, Gary Trent Jr, or Kahlid El-Amin. (some in-state recruits who did not go to MN.....)
 

bizzle22 said:
I think you make a good argument for why it is silly to keep a coach simply because of a recruiting class. As you said, highly touted recruiting classes often don't pan out.

Don't think anyone is comparing Hurt, Kalscheur, and Omersa as players. More just in terms of recruiting rankings. They all had very similar composite rankings.

Hurt -- ranked #216 in 2016 class
Omersa -- ranked #190 in 2018 class
Kalscheur -- ranked #197 in 2018 class

Those rankings look pretty similar to me.

I'm not one who really cares if our recruits are local or not, but I'd like to see us finally pick off one of these local top 25 rated day one difference makers (Jones x2, Travis, Vaughn, Trent, Henry Ellenson, Matthew Hurt) at some point. I understand we can't get all or even most of them, but just one would be nice especially since in the last 5 years or so there have been more than usual within a 90 min drive of Williams Arena.
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I'm with you, I wish we could get one top recruit as well. It seems like if you're top 25 you're gone. If you're 26-49 we have a shot. If you're 50-100 we have a good shot.

I think I'm just sick and tired of being sick and tired, but my being sick and tired doesn't mean I think we should overhaul things. It's soooo much harder to sustain success when you're flipping coaches every 4-6 years.
 

60's Guy said:
If it were that simple it would be lateral imo. What criteria are we deciding on? The conference, the quality of living, the opportunity to be a football power, the salary?
However, at Minnesota he was not just a DB coach. He was the assistant Head Coach. That means he is a heartbeat away from being the head coach at Minnesota. I'd say that is a prestigious position? Is that one of the reasons Warinner left to accept a non-field coaching position? He thought that title should have gone to him? Or does it mean nothing? No prestige, no salary bump, no opportunity?
He does not have the same stature at Texas A&M.
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It might be a lateral move in terms of title, but I guarantee it is not a lateral move in terms of salary. Jimbo makes more than double what PJ makes. A&M is paying their DC $1.8M while ours makes $700k. It stands to reason that Linguist got a very hefty raise to go there. Also, he's from Texas. Something to be said for moving closer to home. Even if all things were equal I'd take double my salary for the same job over being a heartbeat away from a promotion.
 

GopherPlaya said:
Paying attention to what. Look at our big man depth. Our top bigs were already foul prone & all we had to back that up was Gaston & Bakary. Taking to project bigs in one class was foolish. Then we never added 4 year players to develop instead we kept going after transfers (Stockman, Fitzgerald, Lynch, Springs). Springs worked out but it was a 1 year rental. Reggie was good for us also but he was just a band aid for the big miss with Konate & Gaston. I just don't like how addressed recruiting balance.
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We're missing our #1 and #2 centers. How many teams have a 3rd string center that they can truly rely on? Pitino isn't perfect and has made some mistakes, but it's honestly absurd if you think any of what you mentioned is grounds for firing him. We got hit with an insane amount of bad luck this year. If next year's team stays healthy and we miss the tourney, then I will understand wanting him fired. Until then, people need to be more realistic.
 

MRJ said:
I think part of Bleed's exact point is that we've seen higher rated classes both in terms of individual talent and collective rating that have failed to produce at a big-time level. And if that's the case, then it's a valid point.

As to next year's class, I like it on paper. But right now that's all it is, a good class on paper. Everything regarding next year's class is talked about in terms of potential. Not sure that qualifies as foresight or simply hope for the future.

As for firing Pitino, I'm not there yet for a few reasons. And I doubt Coyle is either.

First and foremost, the team figures to return the bulk of the team for next year, although there are certainly gaping holes on this and next year's roster. If the freshmen can blend in and get somewhere between 10-20 quality minutes a game, then I'm willing to see what happens.

Also, there's what whole buyout thing, which is undoubtedly going to be a factor no matter how much people want to disregard it. Add to that the newly updated facilities and I figure Coyle will gave him a little more time. How much time is the question.

One thing is becoming clear however: The program can't keep performing like this in coming years.
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Thanks for your post, I agree, and I think what you wrote helps to clarify Bleed's post. I do think that Pitino has thus far proven to be a better player developer than Monson or Tubby, hence my confidence in this recruiting class panning out better than more highly regarded local classes. But yes, we'll see, and if the program suffers because of the quality of player on campus, Pitino has to eventually go. But yeah, I'm not even close to being there yet.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
As far as in-state recruits, being a little older, I remember in-state recruits with names like Olberding, Landsberger, Mc Hale, Breuer, etc. Not to mention Kevin Lynch, Sam Jacobson, etc. Oh, and a guy named Jim Peterson. You young kids may know him as a TV analyst. he was also the 1st McDonald's All-American player from MN. Are any of the incoming recruits a Mc Donald's All-American?

Look - Oturu may be a really good player. But if this turns out to be one of the best in-state recruiting classes ever, then the Gophers had better win a B1G title and make an NCAA tournament run in the next 4 years.

Again, the incoming players appear to have talent. I'm not arguing that. I'm just suggesting that people might want to keep their expectations within reason. There were people a year ago drooling about what "Jelly" was going to do. going from HS to the B1G is a big jump. It make take 1, 2, or all 3 of the recruits time to become comfortable playing at this level.

My point - if you are counting on true FR to turn the program around, that is a bet I would not make with my own money. Unless at least one of those true FR is a difference-maker in the mold of Tyus Jones, Gary Trent Jr, or Kahlid El-Amin. (some in-state recruits who did not go to MN.....)
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My confidence goes beyond simply this class. It's the track record dating back at least three recruiting classes. 5 of our last 7 recruits are from MN, and I'm pretty pleased with the average caliber of those recruits (yes, on paper). I do see your historical perspective, and yes they would need to perform on a very high level to be considered "best ever". But, we're soooo far removed from those years that I'm not sure the historical perspective has much bearing on the present/future. We have scandal after scandal impeding our future ability to perform on the recruiting trail, hence my warped perspective, and my hesitation to compare the present (past 20 years or so) vs the past (everything prior).

Another reason for my optimism is the fact that we're recruiting 4 year players with high ceilings. None of our guys are even close to 1 and done, but they're good enough to be upper echelon conference players (talent wise as HS'ers) by the time they leave campus. I do expect the pieces to come together once RP gets this PG situation smoothed out.
 

MRJ said:
I think part of Bleed's exact point is that we've seen higher rated classes both in terms of individual talent and collective rating that have failed to produce at a big-time level. And if that's the case, then it's a valid point.

As to next year's class, I like it on paper. But right now that's all it is, a good class on paper. Everything regarding next year's class is talked about in terms of potential. Not sure that qualifies as foresight or simply hope for the future.

As for firing Pitino, I'm not there yet for a few reasons. And I doubt Coyle is either.

First and foremost, the team figures to return the bulk of the team for next year, although there are certainly gaping holes on this and next year's roster. If the freshmen can blend in and get somewhere between 10-20 quality minutes a game, then I'm willing to see what happens.

Also, there's what whole buyout thing, which is undoubtedly going to be a factor no matter how much people want to disregard it. Add to that the newly updated facilities and I figure Coyle will gave him a little more time. How much time is the question.

One thing is becoming clear however: The program can't keep performing like this in coming years.
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Sure it can. It has for the past 20 years.
 

GopherPlaya said:
When I say impact recruits, I mean year one contributors. None of those players are that except maybe Oturo but he is more of the Reggie Lynch defensive impact not someone who change the outlook for next year.
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Very debatable position there. I'm a little higher on this class.


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Minnesota is at the bottom in Basketball, Football and Hockey.

Coyle destroyed the football program. He wanted to get rid of Claeys at any cost.

He terminated the following coaches:

Claeys - Washington State
Johnson - Georgia
Sawvel - Wake Forest

Why are Coyle and Kaler still at the U?
 

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