STrib: For Gophers football fans, the vision should be 2020 (and beyond)

[Dano564]

To be honest, does anyone really think that Fleck said the "year zero" stuff with the intention of pissing off the seniors?? I don't think it was intended to be malicious.

But then, he should've apologized for it and explained that was not what he meant. And maybe he did indeed do that, behind closed doors.

This whole discussion about the seniors I find ridiculous if people haven't noticed from my posts.

Too the players below, sorry your season sucked.

Ayinde, sorry you had to play so much.
Duke, sorry you didn't follow team rules. Fleck was way too hard on you for whatever you did.
Eric Carter, sorry the freshman and sophomore took passes away from you.
Cody and Jon, sorry we didn't win more.
Conor, sorry you had to start, or sorry you didn't start more. Whichever way you are upset about being called back to play here after being told to leave. I know you must hate Fleck.
Ryan, sorry you had to punt.
Kobe, sorry Fleck made you play more.
Justin, sorry you got a scholarship. Fleck treated all of you seniors unfairly.
Nate and Brandon, sorry we didn't pass to you more.
Merrick, sorry for whatever PJ did to you.
Steven, sorry PJ made you take double-teams.
Andrew, Garrison, and Vincent, sorry to you guys as well.

4 Adekunle Ayinde DB 6-0 210 SR Blaine, MN
8 Duke McGhee DB 6-1 211 SR Decatur, GA
9 Eric Carter WR 5-11 193 SR Lakeland, FL
12 Cody Poock LB 6-2 229 SR Okoboji, IA
13 Jonathan Celestin LB 6-1 232 SR Jonesboro, GA
15 Conor Rhoda QB 6-3 225 SR Eagan, MN
18 Ryan Santoso P 6-6 258 SR Pace, FL
22 Kobe McCrary RB 6-1 240 SR Chipley, FL
42 Justin Juenemann PK 6-0 175 SR Phillipsburg, KS
76 Vincent Calhoun OL 6-4 320 SR Roswell, GA
78 Garrison Wright OL 6-4 319 SR Beattie, KS
80 Nate Wozniak TE 6-10 280 SR Greenwood, IN
86 Brandon Lingen TE 6-5 254 SR Wayzata, MN
93 Merrick Jackson DL 6-2 316 SR East Saint Louis, IL
96 Steven Richardson DL 6-0 292 SR Chicago, IL
99 Andrew Stelter DL 6-4 298 SR Owatonna, MN

 

[Dano564]

It has been months since I've compared anything PJ does to past coaches. You really need to pay better attention on who the posters are that keep doing that.


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Could you assemble a list for me?
My attention span must not be good enough to keep that together.

 

[MplsGopher]

This whole discussion about the seniors I find ridiculous if people haven't noticed from my posts.

Fleck didn't tank the season and didn't tank any senior's playing time.

But the comment still was disrespectful towards them, even if he hadn't intended that when he said it.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

Oh for heavens sake. Why are people on this board unable or unwilling to understand a basic point?

The seniors and other upperclassmen were recruited to play in a different system under a different coaching staff with a different philosophy.

I have no doubt - none - that the seniors and other upperclassmen would generally have had more success in 2017 playing in the system they were recruited for, and playing under the coaches who recruited them.

I am a Fleck doubter - and yet - I do not think anything Fleck did toward the upperclassmen was malicious or deliberate. It was their bad luck to get caught in a coaching change. The returning players - in many cases - were a bad fit for the new system. I suspect some of them were a bad fit with the new coaches in terms of personality.

Having said that, I also believe that the seniors and other upperclassmen were not Fleck's highest priority. Fleck has made it pretty clear he has a plan for this program. That plan is focused on recruiting "his" players to fit his system.

To put it bluntly, Fleck had to use the returning players in order to field a team. I believe he likes and appreciates some of the inherited players. I suspect there were other inherited players he really didn't want and didn't care for, but he was stuck with them. And that is true for virtually every D1 coaching change. Change can be a messy process, and some people get caught in the mess. It's like living in a house during a major remodeling project. Not a lot of fun.

the 2017 squad was not Fleck's team. It was a hybrid. Next year's team will be a hybrid. My gut tells me that, for Fleck, the clock really starts on the day when every player on the roster was recruited by Fleck's staff. That is when the Fleck era truly begins, and when everyone can truly judge Fleck as a coach.

 

[BilldGopher]

Fleck Era 1.0 could be defined slightly sooner as the day when every starter on the roster was recruited by Fleck's staff.

This would probably push it up one year than every player being recruited. Always looking for a silver lining...

 

[csom_1991]

the 2017 squad was not Fleck's team. It was a hybrid. Next year's team will be a hybrid. My gut tells me that, for Fleck, the clock really starts on the day when every player on the roster was recruited by Fleck's staff. That is when the Fleck era truly begins, and when everyone can truly judge Fleck as a coach.

I would agree that is when you can assign 100% of the credit/blame to PJ for the wins and losses. However, I think most people are trying to get a gauge on how PJ develops players, makes in-game adjustments, and places the team in a position to win - regardless of if they are 'his' players or not - so that does not require us to hold off judging for 4 years. What I saw this year was basically Zero in terms of player development, anything that made me think PJ was capable of 'out-coaching' a B12 staff on game day, or anything innovative from an X's and O's perspective. Maybe he is saving all of that until it is just his guys. But, I think it is fair for fans to see how this team was not put in a position to win the winnable games early and was simply outclassed late in the season due to not having any player development. Say what you want about Kill or Claeys but they won with lesser talent (per recruiting rankings) by developing the players and putting them into a position to win on game day.

So, I can understand that people are excited at the early rankings in terms of recruiting - but we need to see true player development and the regression (both year to year and within the season) we witnessed this year. I think people came to terms with the Brewster mistake after a year or two - if, and I am sincerely hoping this is not the case, PJ is Brewster v2.0, the fans and administration need see this early so we are not brought back to post-Brewster era levels of incompetence at all facets of the program.

 

[e.bigelow]

I would agree that is when you can assign 100% of the credit/blame to PJ for the wins and losses. However, I think most people are trying to get a gauge on how PJ develops players, makes in-game adjustments, and places the team in a position to win - regardless of if they are 'his' players or not - so that does not require us to hold off judging for 4 years. What I saw this year was basically Zero in terms of player development, anything that made me think PJ was capable of 'out-coaching' a B12 staff on game day, or anything innovative from an X's and O's perspective. Maybe he is saving all of that until it is just his guys. But, I think it is fair for fans to see how this team was not put in a position to win the winnable games early and was simply outclassed late in the season due to not having any player development. Say what you want about Kill or Claeys but they won with lesser talent (per recruiting rankings) by developing the players and putting them into a position to win on game day.

So, I can understand that people are excited at the early rankings in terms of recruiting - but we need to see true player development and the regression (both year to year and within the season) we witnessed this year. I think people came to terms with the Brewster mistake after a year or two - if, and I am sincerely hoping this is not the case, PJ is Brewster v2.0, the fans and administration need see this early so we are not brought back to post-Brewster era levels of incompetence at all facets of the program.

Tyler Johnson. There is one example. Claeys burned his RS then sat him over half the year in 16. He was our only WR who was consistent all year.

Also, you say Kill/Claeys won with lesser talent by developing lesser players and putting them into a position to win on game day. While I don't disagree with that. How long did that take them? Before or after 58-0 to Michigan? Asking for a friend. Also, the reason I am coming across d!ickish is to prove a point. It takes time for a coach to establish his system. You could say all the same things about Kill's Year 1 you are saying about Fleck's first year. Kill's Year 1 was god awful and hardly had any player development either, but how quickly we all forget that.

 

[csom_1991]

"Also, you say Kill/Claeys won with lesser talent by developing lesser players and putting them into a position to win on game day."

Yes, that is exactly what I said. Further, I would say Glen Mason was worlds better than both of them in that regard and I think, from what I have seen thus far, both Kill and Claeys blow the doors off of PJ.

Now, I am actually not a big fan of Kill. I think he was an average coach and poor recruiter. He was loyal to a fault as well - both to his players and coaches even when changes clearly needed to be made. So, I don't look at Kill as some mountain of a man that had the Gophers at the verge of greatness. He hit his ceiling and I think TC actually had a better long term upside.

My issue with PJ is that he needs to demonstrate player development and scheming to win more than 6 games in the B1G. This isn't the MAC where he will outrecruit all the competitors. PJ will likely be dealing with, long-term, probably the 4th best recruits IN THE WEST -- forget about ranking with the big boys in the East. So, recruiting is not the magic bullet like it was in the MAC. In those terms, I think Kill's record of development and winning was more solid coming here than PJ's.

That said, I hope I am wrong about PJ. I want to believe. I want us to finally win and be relevant. But, I am not impressed with what I have seen thus far - it is not just the wins and losses, it is how we win and lose. Personally, I am actually kind of nervous about having Maryland as an every-year game. I think they have the ability to pull ahead of us and stay there. As it stands, I think the Gophers will likely be the homecoming team for 3-4 teams next year.

 

[Dano564]

Oh for heavens sake. Why are people on this board unable or unwilling to understand a basic point?

The seniors and other upperclassmen were recruited to play in a different system under a different coaching staff with a different philosophy.

I have no doubt - none - that the seniors and other upperclassmen would generally have had more success in 2017 playing in the system they were recruited for, and playing under the coaches who recruited them.

I am a Fleck doubter - and yet - I do not think anything Fleck did toward the upperclassmen was malicious or deliberate. It was their bad luck to get caught in a coaching change. The returning players - in many cases - were a bad fit for the new system. I suspect some of them were a bad fit with the new coaches in terms of personality.

Having said that, I also believe that the seniors and other upperclassmen were not Fleck's highest priority. Fleck has made it pretty clear he has a plan for this program. That plan is focused on recruiting "his" players to fit his system.

To put it bluntly, Fleck had to use the returning players in order to field a team. I believe he likes and appreciates some of the inherited players. I suspect there were other inherited players he really didn't want and didn't care for, but he was stuck with them. And that is true for virtually every D1 coaching change. Change can be a messy process, and some people get caught in the mess. It's like living in a house during a major remodeling project. Not a lot of fun.

the 2017 squad was not Fleck's team. It was a hybrid. Next year's team will be a hybrid. My gut tells me that, for Fleck, the clock really starts on the day when every player on the roster was recruited by Fleck's staff. That is when the Fleck era truly begins, and when everyone can truly judge Fleck as a coach.

I find most / all of what you posted above as accurate and reasonable analysis.

 

[Dano564]

I would agree that is when you can assign 100% of the credit/blame to PJ for the wins and losses. However, I think most people are trying to get a gauge on how PJ develops players, makes in-game adjustments, and places the team in a position to win - regardless of if they are 'his' players or not - so that does not require us to hold off judging for 4 years. What I saw this year was basically Zero in terms of player development, anything that made me think PJ was capable of 'out-coaching' a B12 staff on game day, or anything innovative from an X's and O's perspective. Maybe he is saving all of that until it is just his guys. But, I think it is fair for fans to see how this team was not put in a position to win the winnable games early and was simply outclassed late in the season due to not having any player development. Say what you want about Kill or Claeys but they won with lesser talent (per recruiting rankings) by developing the players and putting them into a position to win on game day.

So, I can understand that people are excited at the early rankings in terms of recruiting - but we need to see true player development and the regression (both year to year and within the season) we witnessed this year. I think people came to terms with the Brewster mistake after a year or two - if, and I am sincerely hoping this is not the case, PJ is Brewster v2.0, the fans and administration need see this early so we are not brought back to post-Brewster era levels of incompetence at all facets of the program.

Anyone can watch the last year and pick out reasons to be unhappy with the play calling, but I don't know how many plays were called to "win that game" vs calling the play to "establish his methodology" on how they were going to run the play.

It seems to me there could have been times PJ called a play for a second or third time to see if they can execute it correctly, more-so than calling that play because he thought it would help win that game.

In his first year as head coach with the short roster we had in some areas, I'm not going to get too critical about that.

 

[Spoofin]

It seems to me there could have been times PJ called a play for a second or third time to see if they can execute it correctly, more-so than calling that play because he thought it would help win that game.

There absolutely were. Many versus MD alone. Now, I can understand an argument that is OK with you. One could make an argument that doing that will help in the long term. I don't agree, but I can see why one might think that. What I don't get is the denial there has been for months from many on here that this occurred.


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[GopherHomer]

It's always an awkward balance between a new coach and his upperclassmen - kind of like marrying someone who already has kids. I seem to remember a former player's dad (Kim Royston, maybe? I could be wrong - I apologize if I am) being very critical of how Jerry Kill handled the upperclassmen he inherited, and how he favored 'his' guys.

I also think some of our previous coaches are getting a little too much praise for their player development. Mason was skilled at developing offense and atrocious at developing a defense. Kill was the opposite. Neither coach proved to be able to put together a complete team. Obviously - it's too early to tell with Fleck and while I am a strong supporter of him, there were some concerning signs in 2017.

As for the original topic of this thread, I don't think we should be expected to wait until 2020. If Fleck is all he's cracked up to be, I think we should see some improvement next season (although we will be VERY young) and that 2019 should have us all pretty excited.

 

[MplsGopher]

the 2017 squad was not Fleck's team. It was a hybrid. Next year's team will be a hybrid. My gut tells me that, for Fleck, the clock really starts on the day when every player on the roster was recruited by Fleck's staff. That is when the Fleck era truly begins, and when everyone can truly judge Fleck as a coach.

That's always how it is, though.

And that's why, barring something incredibly bad happening, college coaches usually get four years to show that their way of doing things is working.



17 and 18 won't break Fleck in the slightest. My optimism for 18 has increased, for now, solely due to the change in QB. If we still were going with Croft, then I would've said 4-5 wins for 18. But now with VV, we will just have to see how it goes. Could still be 4-5 wins, or might be a decent improvement.

19 though is where he's really going to need to start showing that his way, and his recruits, are starting to work. We need 7 or 8 wins in that season, by hook or crook.

Then 20 is the payoff -- if it works, 9 or 10 wins. If it goes south, then we'll have our answer that Fleck's method didn't work here, and we'll move on again, keeping the search going for our version of Barry Alvarez. One day ...

 

[Word]

That's always how it is, though.

And that's why, barring something incredibly bad happening, college coaches usually get four years to show that their way of doing things is working.



17 and 18 won't break Fleck in the slightest. My optimism for 18 has increased, for now, solely due to the change in QB. If we still were going with Croft, then I would've said 4-5 wins for 18. But now with VV, we will just have to see how it goes. Could still be 4-5 wins, or might be a decent improvement.

19 though is where he's really going to need to start showing that his way, and his recruits, are starting to work. We need 7 or 8 wins in that season, by hook or crook.

Then 20 is the payoff -- if it works, 9 or 10 wins. If it goes south, then we'll have our answer that Fleck's method didn't work here, and we'll move on again, keeping the search going for our version of Barry Alvarez. One day ...

I pretty much agree with all of this other than I really do think we at the absolute minimum need to win 6 games next year. This year went about as bad as it possibly could have so we should be trending up.