Culture at the heart

[killme]

Whatever took place at Minnesota has likely happened in other campus communities. Various programs have developed some form of poor reputations, some appropriately, others unfairly. Take football out of the equation and it’s still clear to me the world is in an awful state of degradation and decline.

Sexual exploitation is rampant around the globe as we dance the fine line of titillation and glorification. I’m old enough to have seen married couples portrayed on TV in separate beds. Sexuality has increasingly in my lifetime gone from a taboo topic to permeating news, music, entertainment, advertising, politics – you name it. Sex outside of marriage is glorified.

I’m positive it is not conducive to a healthy soul. My views about everything become more conservative in recent years, so this situation has forced me to assess my feelings about Gopher football.

I am convinced, from what I can discern about this incident, that the culture at the University of Minnesota, and specifically in the football program is vile and repulsive. I would not pay for my son or daughter to attend. There may be evil everywhere, but I’m pretty sure there are plenty of better choices.

I’m disappointed in the team leaders, especially Drew Wolitarsky and standing at his side in the press conference, Mitch Leidner. I’m sure there are some morally questionable things going on in a secular college environment and liberal-leaning community. But, I’m also familiar with a football “family” culture and self-policing is the key.

Evidence suggests a fairly large segment of the team has glorified degradation of women. With all of societies’ influences, easy for it to happen. No chance, as blatant as their boasting and texting was, that the entire team didn’t know that mindset was prevalent.

The leaders of this team knew, but didn’t stand up. It’s all fun and games until it’s my sister, my daughter, my friend. Double standard crap. The didn’t denounce the questionable (a stretch at best) behavior, instead they band together to support their teammates because of due process? Don’t be naive. They knew enough. This boycott smears the reputation of all who participated, which seems like all.

The coaches are not without blame. When 10% of the team is involved in one incident, there’s no way they were oblivious. I’d be stunned if topics of promiscuity never came up, given all the time spent together, and I’m not confident at this point in what they were teaching young men about life. Leadership is not a task everyone is qualified for.

The woman accuser is not without blame. Regardless of her consent, at 21 it’s unlikely she didn’t just wander out of a convent and was blindsided. She attempted to walk a fine line and if her story is truth, it turned out horribly. If I step in the mud puddle, I’m likely to get dirty. But, whatever poor decisions she made, she’s still a human. Even if all of her accusations are false -- which player testimony refutes -- even those on the fringe put themselves in potential harm's way.

It’s been a while since I’ve posted, but I have stopped by occasionally to try to find some Gopher news. I always regret clicking on my gopherhole link, because I’m never better off. Much like Charlie Brown and Lucy, I tend to think the next time will be different.

The anonymity on GH removes restraint. While there are a few who might publically champion the cause of vile mindsets, I suspect most would be ashamed to have all of their friends, families, and mothers know the things they post.

I propose that each of us has a responsibility to resist and do our part to stand up for morals and values.

 

[Gogogopher]

Whatever took place at Minnesota has likely happened in other campus communities. Various programs have developed some form of poor reputations, some appropriately, others unfairly. Take football out of the equation and it’s still clear to me the world is in an awful state of degradation and decline.

Sexual exploitation is rampant around the globe as we dance the fine line of titillation and glorification. I’m old enough to have seen married couples portrayed on TV in separate beds. Sexuality has increasingly in my lifetime gone from a taboo topic to permeating news, music, entertainment, advertising, politics – you name it. Sex outside of marriage is glorified.

I’m positive it is not conducive to a healthy soul. My views about everything become more conservative in recent years, so this situation has forced me to assess my feelings about Gopher football.

I am convinced, from what I can discern about this incident, that the culture at the University of Minnesota, and specifically in the football program is vile and repulsive. I would not pay for my son or daughter to attend. There may be evil everywhere, but I’m pretty sure there are plenty of better choices.

I’m disappointed in the team leaders, especially Drew Wolitarsky and standing at his side in the press conference, Mitch Leidner. I’m sure there are some morally questionable things going on in a secular college environment and liberal-leaning community. But, I’m also familiar with a football “family” culture and self-policing is the key.

Evidence suggests a fairly large segment of the team has glorified degradation of women. With all of societies’ influences, easy for it to happen. No chance, as blatant as their boasting and texting was, that the entire team didn’t know that mindset was prevalent.

The leaders of this team knew, but didn’t stand up. It’s all fun and games until it’s my sister, my daughter, my friend. Double standard crap. The didn’t denounce the questionable (a stretch at best) behavior, instead they band together to support their teammates because of due process? Don’t be naive. They knew enough. This boycott smears the reputation of all who participated, which seems like all.

The coaches are not without blame. When 10% of the team is involved in one incident, there’s no way they were oblivious. I’d be stunned if topics of promiscuity never came up, given all the time spent together, and I’m not confident at this point in what they were teaching young men about life. Leadership is not a task everyone is qualified for.

The woman accuser is not without blame. Regardless of her consent, at 21 it’s unlikely she didn’t just wander out of a convent and was blindsided. She attempted to walk a fine line and if her story is truth, it turned out horribly. If I step in the mud puddle, I’m likely to get dirty. But, whatever poor decisions she made, she’s still a human. Even if all of her accusations are false -- which player testimony refutes -- even those on the fringe put themselves in potential harm's way.

It’s been a while since I’ve posted, but I have stopped by occasionally to try to find some Gopher news. I always regret clicking on my gopherhole link, because I’m never better off. Much like Charlie Brown and Lucy, I tend to think the next time will be different.

The anonymity on GH removes restraint. While there are a few who might publically champion the cause of vile mindsets, I suspect most would be ashamed to have all of their friends, families, and mothers know the things they post.

I propose that each of us has a responsibility to resist and do our part to stand up for morals and values.

I wholeheartedly agree with the part I bolded!

 

[matt]

Take football out of the equation and it’s still clear to me the world is in an awful state of degradation and decline.

This is where you lost me.

 

[Moonlight]

It is worth the time to take a look at this blog post on MPR today regarding the reported sitting in on a mandatory meeting regarding sex and consent for athletes at the U. It didn't go well.
http://blogs.mprnews.org/newscut/2016/12/in-boycott-over-u-of-m-suspensions-the-issue-isnt-football/

 

[Vandy]

Whatever took place at Minnesota has likely happened in other campus communities. Various programs have developed some form of poor reputations, some appropriately, others unfairly. Take football out of the equation and it’s still clear to me the world is in an awful state of degradation and decline.

Sexual exploitation is rampant around the globe as we dance the fine line of titillation and glorification. I’m old enough to have seen married couples portrayed on TV in separate beds. Sexuality has increasingly in my lifetime gone from a taboo topic to permeating news, music, entertainment, advertising, politics – you name it. Sex outside of marriage is glorified.

I’m positive it is not conducive to a healthy soul. My views about everything become more conservative in recent years, so this situation has forced me to assess my feelings about Gopher football.

I am convinced, from what I can discern about this incident, that the culture at the University of Minnesota, and specifically in the football program is vile and repulsive. I would not pay for my son or daughter to attend. There may be evil everywhere, but I’m pretty sure there are plenty of better choices.

I’m disappointed in the team leaders, especially Drew Wolitarsky and standing at his side in the press conference, Mitch Leidner. I’m sure there are some morally questionable things going on in a secular college environment and liberal-leaning community. But, I’m also familiar with a football “family” culture and self-policing is the key.

Evidence suggests a fairly large segment of the team has glorified degradation of women. With all of societies’ influences, easy for it to happen. No chance, as blatant as their boasting and texting was, that the entire team didn’t know that mindset was prevalent.

The leaders of this team knew, but didn’t stand up. It’s all fun and games until it’s my sister, my daughter, my friend. Double standard crap. The didn’t denounce the questionable (a stretch at best) behavior, instead they band together to support their teammates because of due process? Don’t be naive. They knew enough. This boycott smears the reputation of all who participated, which seems like all.

The coaches are not without blame. When 10% of the team is involved in one incident, there’s no way they were oblivious. I’d be stunned if topics of promiscuity never came up, given all the time spent together, and I’m not confident at this point in what they were teaching young men about life. Leadership is not a task everyone is qualified for.

The woman accuser is not without blame. Regardless of her consent, at 21 it’s unlikely she didn’t just wander out of a convent and was blindsided. She attempted to walk a fine line and if her story is truth, it turned out horribly. If I step in the mud puddle, I’m likely to get dirty. But, whatever poor decisions she made, she’s still a human. Even if all of her accusations are false -- which player testimony refutes -- even those on the fringe put themselves in potential harm's way.

It’s been a while since I’ve posted, but I have stopped by occasionally to try to find some Gopher news. I always regret clicking on my gopherhole link, because I’m never better off. Much like Charlie Brown and Lucy, I tend to think the next time will be different.

The anonymity on GH removes restraint. While there are a few who might publically champion the cause of vile mindsets, I suspect most would be ashamed to have all of their friends, families, and mothers know the things they post.

I propose that each of us has a responsibility to resist and do our part to stand up for morals and values.

You can stick your 4th paragraph where the sun doesn't shine. There are 52,000 students attending and you've no business damning all of them to the actions of a dozen. I have an daughter there and numerous friends children who are outstanding students, citizens and athletes.
Reign it in a notch or two.

 

[Block M]

Thanks for the thoughtful post killme. Regrettably, I agree with you on many points. What happened that night is reflective of society as a whole and in many ways it's not a good look.

 

[btowngopher]

You can stick your 4th paragraph where the sun doesn't shine. There are 52,000 students attending and you've no business damning all of them to the actions of a dozen. I have an daughter there and numerous friends children who are outstanding students, citizens and athletes.
Reign it in a notch or two.

This +100.

 

[corcorangopher]

We do need to stand up for morals and values.

I've been a passionate Gopher fan for many years. I'll be once the dust settles again. But this about men's D1 athletics. It's too big. It's addictive. It's too powerful for its own good.

This is not representative of the University of Minnesota. The school does so much fantastic work. There are so many bright students doing so much wonderful things. There clearly was a victim in this tragedy. But, it is also so sad that so many now equate our fine University with this filth and fail to know it's true value and purpose.

 

[Herd]

Where are the good and descent men who are disgusted by a culture that degrades women? Where are the good and descent men on this football team? I recently sat in on a Wash Co meeting on sex trafficking, and the pervasive behavior of men in today's culture is sickening. Men are the drivers behind today's ugly culture, don't kid yourself. Where are you good and descent men?

Boycott? Boycott the notion that paying for sex and exploiting women is OK? Boycott players who think this disgusting incident is OK. It's time for men to stand up against this culture.

 

[Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0]

Where are the good and descent men who are disgusted by a culture that degrades women? Where are the good and descent men on this football team? I recently sat in on a Wash Co meeting on sex trafficking, and the pervasive behavior of men in today's culture is sickening. Where are you good and descent men?

Boycott? Boycott the notion that paying for sex and exploiting women is OK? Boycott players who think this disgusting incident is OK. It's time for men to stand up against this culture.

The boycott is essentially over the fairness of the additional players being thrown into this mess dooshbag! At least one of whom wasn't in the apartment during the incident allegedly.

BTW, congratulations on the great game by your boys against JMU. Still think your Screamin' Chickens are on par with the big boys?

 

[Herd]

The boycott is essentially over the fairness of the additional players being thrown into this mess dooshbag! At least one of whom wasn't in the apartment during the incident allegedly.

BTW, congratulations on the great game by your boys against JMU. Still think your Screamin' Chickens are on par with the big boys?

Yes, we want to be fair with those involved on the fringe, who didn't have balls to prevent this mess. Surely you would have gave it a wink and a nod also. Let's focus on the fringe, not the incident, that's your take on this?

 

[Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0]

Yes, we want to be fair with those involved on the fringe, who didn't have balls to prevent this mess. Surely you would have gave it a wink and a nod also. Let's focus on the fringe, not the incident, that's your take on this?

So you know exactly what happened and who was involved. Well then, case closed!!

 

[citywok]

This is an athletics problem more specifically than it is a University of Minnesota problem. However people are kidding themselves if they don't believe that this culture is deeply embedded and permeating in American sports as a whole, not specifically college sports.

And to one of the above posts- Woli's statement said "We won't end this boycott until due process is followed AND THE SUSPENSIONS OF ALL TEN MEMBERS ARE LIFTED". DON'T forget that and try to minimize what they were standing for.

 

[Some Day...Maybe]

The boycott is essentially over the fairness of the additional players being thrown into this mess dooshbag! At least one of whom wasn't in the apartment during the incident allegedly.

BTW, congratulations on the great game by your boys against JMU. Still think your Screamin' Chickens are on par with the big boys?

Wow! You get the tool of the century award big tough guy. I take it you have a tough time with words. Like the words we will not play football until ALL TEN suspensions are lifted. Can you count that high, big tough manly man???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dunceswithwolves]

I’m sure there are some morally questionable things going on in a secular college environment and liberal-leaning community..

I believe you are falling into the trap of moral decline(your argument, not you). I'd say that its more complicated than -- things were better in the olden days. The 50s -- as an example -- could hardly be called a virtuous era. Look at race relations and treatment of woman. It might feels good to believe that things used to be better but any cold eyed look at history would make that impossible.

As for the liberal thing, seems like sexual misconduct knows no party or politics. Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy (and others) are connected by some to a liberal promiscuity. Who were the saintly men who prosecuted Clinton -- Gingrich and Livingston? Need I mention Sanford, Ensign, Foley, Ryan, and Giuliani? We all remember Henry Hyde's "youthful indiscretions." I think he was in his youthful mid-50s. Those lists don't include Larry Craig, Dennis Hastert or David Vitter. Should we describe here their conservative principles and actions? How about the current standard bearer of America's conservative movement who by some accounts (including his own) is a serial sexual predator and philanderer? I think blaming a liberal-leaning community is about as honest as blaming the sexual misconduct of the President-elect for eliminating any moral sexual standards.

 

[Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0]

This is an athletics problem more specifically than it is a University of Minnesota problem. However people are kidding themselves if they don't believe that this culture is deeply embedded and permeating in American sports as a whole, not specifically college sports.

And to one of the above posts- Woli's statement said "We won't end this boycott until due process is followed AND THE SUSPENSIONS OF ALL TEN MEMBERS ARE LIFTED". DON'T forget that and try to minimize what they were standing for.

Wow! You get the tool of the century award big tough guy. I take it you have a tough time with words. Like the words we will not play football until ALL TEN suspensions are lifted. Can you count that high, big tough manly man???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did you really expect Woli to exclude the original four accused players in a statement like this? IMO, if the suspensions were limited to them, this boycott wouldn't happen. It's the additional six suspensions that's driving this. You are fooling yourselves if you think otherwise.

 

[citywok]

I expect him to make a very important statement (with his BA in English) that accurately and carefully reflects everything that they are standing for. He said that they stand for all ten suspensions being lifted, then that is what they stand for. Until they say something differently you HAVE to take them at their word, because that is what they are asking of you. You may have the opinion, because it makes you feel better, that if the punishment only went to the 4/5/whatever direct participants that they wouldn't boycott; but you don't know that at all and nothing in their statement even started to hint at that.

 

[Nax5]

Having just graduated from the U, I can tell you that there are plenty of decent human beings and "bros" who respect women. I wouldn't condemn an entire campus. The football program, maybe? But I agree, that even the text messages the players were sending each other were disgusting.

 

[Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0]

I expect him to make a very important statement (with his BA in English) that accurately and carefully reflects everything that they are standing for. He said that they stand for all ten suspensions being lifted, then that is what they stand for. Until they say something differently you HAVE to take them at their word, because that is what they are asking of you. You may have the opinion, because it makes you feel better, that if the punishment only went to the 4/5/whatever direct participants that they wouldn't boycott; but you don't know that at all and nothing in their statement even started to hint at that.

You think those were Woli's actual thoughts and not words crafted for impact by someone like Lee Hutton. I would be disappointed but fine with the school taking action against the four that were originally accused. Anything by the team said in public is designed to put maximum pressure on the administration. It would be very naive to think otherwise.

 

[citywok]

That is beside the point, I am sure that Hutton or someone like that had a hand in it. But he went up there and said it, he stands for what he spoke and that is obviously the most important part. That's like a president and a speechwriter. Come on, man.

You can say that's naive but your perspective is mental gymnastics, just to try and justify what you WANT to believe, as opposed to reality.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I posted yesterday what my freshman daughter told me: practically every one of her classmates she's talked to about this are disgusted by the players' behavior. This does not represent the morals and ethics of most of the student body.

I attended in the 1980's, and there was freaky **** going on then, too. I don't know if there's really any trend towards Hell occurring. As a Christian, I tend to see this as the wheat separating from the chaff, which is the process of life and discernment.

As far as other schools go, I had a chance to walk around Notre Dame this summer and overhear a number of conversations students were having. Some were vile and profane. Others were discussions about scripture and theology. Again, the wheat and the chaff.

The part of this and the Dorsey foursome that's bugged me the most has been the assertion that, if it's consentual and legal, it's OK, and if you disagree with that you should be in a monastery or an Amish community, not general society. Well, call me a prude, but I agree with the OP that group sex and the like isn't good for a person's heart or soul.

 

[CoMn]

I think the problem is these boys have ready access to violent porn where in generations past Playboy was a big deal. That is where they learn about sex. Porn is pretty much a guy's fantasy world....not a women's. Students don't date anymore and you can trace that back to about the time the internet started supplying unlimited porn to guys. My first post yesterday was "what ever happened to dating?" This MPR blog was disturbing. How do these sports programs not have weekly training on how to treat women when it seems so many programs fall over sex assault allegations. Personally because of the boycott I am hoping that the entire football program gets cancelled. Let us be the example.

 

[Vandy]

Where are the good and descent men who are disgusted by a culture that degrades women? Where are the good and descent men on this football team? I recently sat in on a Wash Co meeting on sex trafficking, and the pervasive behavior of men in today's culture is sickening. Men are the drivers behind today's ugly culture, don't kid yourself. Where are you good and descent men?

Boycott? Boycott the notion that paying for sex and exploiting women is OK? Boycott players who think this disgusting incident is OK. It's time for men to stand up against this culture.

Herd is a well known NDSU troller. I'd think their fan board should be enough to keep him busy today.

 

[Vandy]

I think the problem is these boys have ready access to violent porn where in generations past Playboy was a big deal. That is where they learn about sex. Porn is pretty much a guy's fantasy world....not a women's. Students don't date anymore and you can trace that back to about the time the internet started supplying unlimited porn to guys. My first post yesterday was "what ever happened to dating?" This MPR blog was disturbing. How do these sports programs not have weekly training on how to treat women when it seems so many programs fall over sex assault allegations. Personally because of the boycott I am hoping that the entire football program gets cancelled. Let us be the example.

Interesting take, but take caution when you assume that guys are the only ones with access to porn and the behaviors depicted in porn. Do a little research on what "Tinder" and other "dating" apps are all about. They fuel the "hook up" culture.... In fact the female involved in this case used the app as she wanted to be meeting and gaining access to the parties where these football players would be.

Don't jump on me for pointing it out, but be reminded of it...

 

[Iceland12]

Herd is a well known NDSU troller. I'd think their fan board should be enough to keep him busy today.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I think the problem is these boys have ready access to violent porn where in generations past Playboy was a big deal. That is where they learn about sex. Porn is pretty much a guy's fantasy world....not a women's. Students don't date anymore and you can trace that back to about the time the internet started supplying unlimited porn to guys. My first post yesterday was "what ever happened to dating?" This MPR blog was disturbing. How do these sports programs not have weekly training on how to treat women when it seems so many programs fall over sex assault allegations. Personally because of the boycott I am hoping that the entire football program gets cancelled. Let us be the example.

LOL. Please tell me this post is sarcastic.

 

[killme]

... its more complicated than -- things were better in the olden days...

My long-winded post was intended to illustrate visible and open decline, not say "let's go back to the old days" or endorse or condemn a political party. I think mostly what I was trying to express is, IMHO, there is right and wrong and we all know the difference. If your wife and her friends went to a male strip club, ended up having sex with a stripper, and her friends celebrated -- perhaps even encouraged her, how would you feel about her association with them going forward? How about her friend that didn’t go, but sent encouraging texts?

Our society – our world – is in decline and I feel compelled to specifically express my views that oppose the decline to those I interact with, friends, family, my children, and anyone else who will listen.

Character is the public manifestation of our private thoughts and feelings about issues. Teaching the general population or the student body about values and social interaction isn’t the primary responsibility of a university. But we, as individuals, as a community, and especially our football coaches do bear the responsibility for the development of the culture, character and ethics of the team as a whole.

“We need to change the culture” is a common phrase from coaches taking over an unsuccessful program, including Minnesota a few years ago. Showing up on time, working hard, respecting your coaches, teammates, opponents, fans, administration, going to class – all of those things are connected to “doing the right thing” (character & values). Once established, the veterans help train the new recruits, but certainly the values of our program need to be expressed in the recruiting process. Young men going through the maturing process, who may not have been taught about character before they became Gophers, should be during their time in the program.

While promiscuous, perhaps even questionable, behavior has likely existed, something tells me the leadership of this program has lost touch with the importance of character. That falls on the staff and the veteran players. It shouldn’t be an option. How we treat other humans should be paramount.

 

[Some guy]

In my opinion. In terms of sexuality, there has never been a safer, more empowering time period in human history for women than right now in westernized countries.


Obviously there are problems but on the whole, women are much better off now than 20-30 years ago...and definitely better off than 50+ years ago

 

[Iceland12]

"I am convinced, from what I can discern about this incident, that the culture at the University of Minnesota, and specifically in the football program is vile and repulsive. I would not pay for my son or daughter to attend. There may be evil everywhere, but I’m pretty sure there are plenty of better choices."

No, you'd be sending them to Kansas State. Hope the culture down there suits you.

"The accusation had come from Kimberly Hewitt, the director of the aforementioned EOAA office, in an e-mail sent to then-athletic director Norwood Teague dated July 16, 2015. The Star Tribune had gained access to the e-mail months later through a records request.

Hewitt and her office had looked into the 2014-15 allegations and substantiated one case of sexual harassment. One.

A month after Hewitt sent the e-mail, Teague’s own issue with sexual harassment came to light and he wound up being fired.

I was told by a couple of university sources that Kill was very upset that Kaler sided with Hewitt internally on the original e-mail.

And don’t discount how much that mid-October revelation by the Star Tribune added to Kill’s level of angst as he unsuccessfully battled to control his epilepsy. He was beside himself when that story appeared.

The Gophers followed with a horrible performance vs. Nebraska one day after the Hewitt e-mail story. And 12 days after it was published, Kill retired as the football coach."

 

[DoubleAlum]

The boycott is essentially over the fairness of the additional players being thrown into this mess dooshbag! At least one of whom wasn't in the apartment during the incident allegedly.

BTW, congratulations on the great game by your boys against JMU. Still think your Screamin' Chickens are on par with the big boys?

Between 10-20 guys had sex with her. 12 or more used condoms. More players are getting a free pass on this. Perhaps one or two may be getting a bad rap. The ones getting off should confess in exchange for exonerating the one or two innocents.