Pitino on biggest challenges at Minnesota

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Bad Gopher said:
Like it or not, I have some memories of past days, like when Dusty Rychart scored more than 40 ppg as a HS senior, yet Minnesota was his only high major offer because, as everyone knows, the competition in Grand Rapids' conference is inferior. Same crap with Nate Wolters
Rychart came here as a walk on, Woodside was also offered as a walk on. Hindsight 20/20
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golfing18now said:
One of the things that I enjoy the most about this site is connecting with other Gopher fans that are passionate about Gopher basketball and following the recruiting battles, development of players, etc. etc. etc.

The flip side of that passion is we can devote 100 posts and counting on a pretty innocuous comment made in response to a direct question asked of him. I'll always appreciate his honesty about the state of the program and his players. It is so much better than the alternative.

I just don't see his comments from the other night on this topic as excuse making.
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I guess this is just a microcosm of the larger frustration of us Gopher fans, which is, why do we suck so bad at sports? It's tempting and seductive to conclude that we have too many disadvantages, so it's just not possible.

My daughter was recently accepted to the U of M. It's where she's always wanted to attend, going back to her youth. Since the letter came I've been counseling her on making her decision to enroll with her eyes wide open. Two points that keep coming up:
1. When I went there, we called it The Zoo for a reason
2. All our sports suck, so you have to understand and be OK with that

So you see, even I'm part of the problem, resigning not just myself but my daughter to a life of rooting for lower-division sports teams. :)
 

bemidjigopher said:
Rychart came here as a walk on, Woodside was also offered as a walk on. Hindsight 20/20
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Thanks for the reminder about Dusty. Like someone at work said yesterday: "My memory is good, but it's short."
 

Bad Gopher said:
Ryan, meanwhile, has surely passed on other 3-star recruits that he thought wouldn't fit or develop as well. Just like the middle rounds of the NFL draft, how well your 3-star players pan out has a lot to do with your success. Monson clearly missed on Taylor, but I remember JohnnyGopher posting that, when Tubby came in he declined to try to steal him away from Wisconsin because he really didn't think he'd amount to much being such a suspect shooter at the time.
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A couple things for Bo Ryan that is different than MN. Wisconsin teams were typically made up of more 4 and 5 star players than MN. Makes it much easier for them to take some risks (not that JT was a "risk" IMO). They also have an established program with established depth. Bo Ryan didn't need JT to come in and light the world on fire his freshman year. He could be patient. And can be with any player really. He also took a chance on Riley Dearing who just left the program, so didn't exactly work out. It's not an exact science.

Minnesota, because we typically haven't been great and had a great foundation and coaches are judged on wins and losses and are fired relatively quickly come in needing freshman to contribute right away and need wins right away. So I think they do go a little safer there. Pitino and Tubby after awhile no longer had the goodwill and trust of fans that Ryan had earned at UW. It's a little different with Pitino, but he's in year 3 with a group of solid freshman and we all want him gone. What if he signed a guy from upstate MN and was flopping with those guys instead of Rivals top 150 players? He'd be gone even quicker for not only losing, but apparently sing awful at recruiting. Signing "under the radar" guys is extremely risky. And maybe too risky to bet your career and job on it.

Lastly, I believe Tubby also said in regards to JT that he already had Al Nolen and didn't think he needed another PG. hindsight being 20/20 though. Even still, aside from the suspension and injuries, Al was a pretty good player himself. He was starting PG for a top 10 team for a stretch.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Again, it comes down to how good you are at evaluating players and then developing them.
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Indeed it does and no one was better at that than Ryan. By the way, I thought Woodside was another great example. He's exactly the kind of kid who few expected much from despite great high school numbers. He's exactly the kind of kid who could be recruited for the bottom of the roster and end up being more than that.
 


scher215 said:
A couple things for Bo Ryan that is different than MN. Wisconsin teams were typically made up of more 4 and 5 star players than MN. Makes it much easier for them to take some risks (not that JT was a "risk" IMO). They also have an established program with established depth. Bo Ryan didn't need JT to come in and light the world on fire his freshman year. He could be patient. And can be with any player really. He also took a chance on Riley Dearing who just left the program, so didn't exactly work out. It's not an exact science.

Minnesota, because we typically haven't been great and had a great foundation and coaches are judged on wins and losses and are fired relatively quickly come in needing freshman to contribute right away and need wins right away. So I think they do go a little safer there. Pitino and Tubby after awhile no longer had the goodwill and trust of fans that Ryan had earned at UW. It's a little different with Pitino, but he's in year 3 with a group of solid freshman and we all want him gone. What if he signed a guy from upstate MN and was flopping with those guys instead of Rivals top 150 players? He'd be gone even quicker for not only losing, but apparently sing awful at recruiting. Signing "under the radar" guys is extremely risky. And maybe too risky to bet your career and job on it.

Lastly, I believe Tubby also said in regards to JT that he already had Al Nolen and didn't think he needed another PG. hindsight being 20/20 though. Even still, aside from the suspension and injuries, Al was a pretty good player himself. He was starting PG for a top 10 team for a stretch.
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Actually, Al Nolen was a good find for Monson, who I suppose could have chased a higher-rated PG from out of state. I didn't know much about Al before he came in, but all it took for me was one look, and I knew that, if he could develop a decent jump shot, he could be a good one. He did, and he was. He possessed things that couldn't be taught (e.g. quickness, strength).

Avoiding local guys in favor of bigger fish - under the radar or not - can be risky as well. One in the hand is worth two in the bush.
 

scher215 said:
Minnesota, because we typically haven't been great and had a great foundation and coaches are judged on wins and losses and are fired relatively quickly come in needing freshman to contribute right away and need wins right away. So I think they do go a little safer there. Pitino and Tubby after awhile no longer had the goodwill and trust of fans that Ryan had earned at UW.
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Theoretically, that should be true, but both of our centers are major long-term projects and, with a .338 true shooting percentage, McBreyer probably wouldn't be getting significant freshman minutes on many other high major rosters. As to the last sentence, the differences in goodwill and trust were entirely the products of the accomplishments of those individuals and Tubby still had considerably more goodwill in his third season than Pitino has now.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
And (home) scheduling right????
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No, I save that for summer hot stove discussions!

My bigger concern is about last night, when Gophers were the better team for most of the game, controlled play, and then the game completely flips when for some unknown reason one of our centers is put back on the floor.

Presto, here comes the predictable Penn State run, Gophers never recovered, game over. Do not understand why BK was on the floor at the point when the Gophers were really close to salting that game. I understand he needs minutes, but not when you're about to put the game away, and the guy has done next to nothing previously (in this game).
 

cjbfbp said:
Theoretically, that should be true, but both of our centers are major long-term projects and, with a .338 true shooting percentage, McBreyer probably wouldn't be getting significant freshman minutes on many other high major rosters. As to the last sentence, the differences in goodwill and trust were entirely the products of the accomplishments of those individuals and Tubby still had considerably more goodwill in his third season than Pitino has now.
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I agree with Tubby, there were a couple of yahoo's in year three, but nobody really started getting frustrated with him until year four. Which I didn't think was his fault that Devoe quit on his teammates and Al Nolan got hurt. Pitino will have to produce next year. It's ugly now, but I think after next year when we have an AD whose evaluated the program for a season, if were not going dancing. I could see whoever the AD is wanting to put their own stamp on the program
 



bemidjigopher said:
if were not going dancing. I could see whoever the AD is wanting to put their own stamp on the program
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I think I've made it very clear that I don't have a lot of faith in Pitino, but expecting him to make the NCAA tournament next year might be a bit too difficult of a retention standard in my opinion. This team could win 10 or fewer games this year. Improving to 20 or 21 wins next year just might be a "bridge too far" for almost any coach. I think making the NIT next year might be a good enough performance to justify retaining him. Short of that, he should be gone.
 

cjbfbp said:
I think I've made it very clear that I don't have a lot of faith in Pitino, but expecting him to make the NCAA tournament next year might be a bit too difficult of a retention standard in my opinion. This team could win 10 or fewer games this year. Improving to 20 or 21 wins next year just might be a "bridge too far" for almost any coach. I think making the NIT next year might be a good enough performance to justify retaining him. Short of that, he should be gone.
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Even I would be frustrated if we cannot make a trip to the NIT next year.
 

Winasota Gopher said:
Even I would be frustrated if we cannot make a trip to the NIT next year.
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Agree with both of you. Barring another diasaster in Year 4, Pitino is getting Year 5.

It takes a huge leap of faith to believe the Gophers will be a NCAA-type squad in 2016-17, contrary to what easily excitable Jon Crispin said on last night's telecast. Crispin said he could "see both these teams in the top 3-5 of the Big Ten next season."

Whoa Jon, easy there, settle down a bit. Your audience isn't that dense.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Agree with both of you. Barring another diasaster in Year 4, Pitino is getting Year 5.

It takes a huge leap of faith to believe the Gophers will be a NCAA-type squad in 2016-17, contrary to what easily excitable Jon Crispin said on last night's telecast. Crispin said he could "see both these teams in the top 3-5 of the Big Ten next season."

Whoa Jon, easy there, settle down a bit. Your audience isn't that dense.
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We should be better next year if no other reason that we have three more available players to choose from than we do this year. It's like we are on self imposed probation and wonder why we are flailing.
 




SelectionSunday said:
Agree with both of you. Barring another diasaster in Year 4, Pitino is getting Year 5.

It takes a huge leap of faith to believe the Gophers will be a NCAA-type squad in 2016-17, contrary to what easily excitable Jon Crispin said on last night's telecast. Crispin said he could "see both these teams in the top 3-5 of the Big Ten next season."

Whoa Jon, easy there, settle down a bit. Your audience isn't that dense.
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I don't think it's a huge leap of faith, grant it I think they'll be a bubble team, but between Hurt, Currey, Coffey, Fitz and Lynch all five could very well crack the rotation next year. Plus guys like Mason, Murphy, Dorsey and McBreyer will all have another year under their belts on the court and in the weight room. Getting into the dance should be the goal next year. I could live with the NIT if it's like Pitino first team or the in with a 6-12 conference record all then I can't.
I do agree that announcer was getting ahead of himself, maybe in two or three years, but not next year, Big ten is still the Big Ten, bout what were adding next year. It be interesting to see who would win in a game of 5v5 right now between next year's newcomers and our current starters
 

bemidjigopher said:
I don't think it's a huge leap of faith, grant it I think they'll be a bubble team, but between Hurt, Currey, Coffey, Fitz and Lynch all five could very well crack the rotation next year. Plus guys like Mason, Murphy, Dorsey and McBreyer will all have another year under their belts on the court and in the weight room. Getting into the dance should be the goal next year. I could live with the NIT if it's like Pitino first team or the in with a 6-12 conference record all then I can't.
I do agree that announcer was getting ahead of himself, maybe in two or three years, but not next year, Big ten is still the Big Ten, bout what were adding next year. It be interesting to see who would win in a game of 5v5 right now between next year's newcomers and our current starters
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Concur the goal in 2016-17 should be the NCAA Tournament. However, sadly, that won't be my expectation in Year 4. I think cjbfbp has it right. ... NIT next season would be more realistic. It's a big climb from being a conference bottom-feeder to middle of the pack/Bubble Land.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Concur the goal in 2016-17 should be the NCAA Tournament. However, sadly, that won't be my expectation in Year 4. I think cjbfbp has it right. ... NIT next season would be more realistic. It's a big climb from being a conference bottom-feeder to middle of the pack/Bubble Land.
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I guess will see, A lot od basketball between then and now
 

bemidjigopher said:
I agree with Tubby, there were a couple of yahoo's in year three, but nobody really started getting frustrated with him until year four. Which I didn't think was his fault that Devoe quit on his teammates and Al Nolan got hurt. Pitino will have to produce next year. It's ugly now, but I think after next year when we have an AD whose evaluated the program for a season, if were not going dancing. I could see whoever the AD is wanting to put their own stamp on the program
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Any AD with a brain would love to inherit a good basketball coach.
 

station19 said:
Any AD with a brain would love to inherit a good basketball coach.
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True and one could argue the previous AD had a pretty good coach, but the past is the past. All I am saying is a new AD won't feel the same loyalty to Pitino as Teague did, maybe he or she will like what they see, may be they won't, a lot of it will depend on how next year plays out and to an extent how patient the new AD is. An NCAA birth next year will remove any job insecurities IMO, Anything short and defining progress becomes a massive grey area depending on what the new AD thinks
 

Maybe little Dick should cry to daddy. Daddy gave him his career so hopefully daddy can save it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Personally I like Pitino, I think he's articulate, blunt, seems like to type who tries to solve problem rather than complain about it. I think his recruiting has gotten better each year and I think the guys he's brought in have a lot of heart, they're just learning how to win and unfortunately it can be a painful process. I just don't think it's a guarantee that a new AD will view what he's doing as Progress if we don't make the tourney next year. I hope he's here for years to come and that this season is like our version of the 1999 Twins where a young team lays the foundation for success down the road.
 

Back to the original point - Pitino's comments on recruiting disadvantages:

Recruiting is salesmanship. A good salesperson learns to overcome objections. A good recruiter learns to overcome any disadvantages his program may have. You have to take perceived negatives and find a way to paint them as opportunities - not obstacles. I've bought things I really didn't want or need because the sales pitch was that good.

IMHO, the jury is still out on Pitino as a recruiter and as a game coach. I'm willing to wait and see what develops with the current FR class and next year's recruits - but I really want to start seeing some signs of progress.
 

cjbfbp said:
Yes, and if you're an athlete from the Chicago metro, you're reasonably likely to find others at Iowa who hailed from your local area and maybe even went to your high school. The Big Ten Network really helped the U of M with the issue of a recruit's family and friends being able to see the games, though.
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Iowa has notoriously had trouble recruiting in Chicago since the Jimmy Collins/Bruce Pearl scandal in the late-80's. They haven't had a recruit of signifance in basketball from there since them.

You are correct that a large number of the general student population comes from there, and this has been helpful on the football recruiting front, but it's really an empty "advantage" in basketball that yields very little in terms of actual, tangible benefits.
 

cjbfbp said:
Theoretically, that should be true, but both of our centers are major long-term projects and, with a .338 true shooting percentage, McBreyer probably wouldn't be getting significant freshman minutes on many other high major rosters. As to the last sentence, the differences in goodwill and trust were entirely the products of the accomplishments of those individuals and Tubby still had considerably more goodwill in his third season than Pitino has now.
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Tubby's teams were considerably better after his third season than Pitino's have been....that's why...
 

To those saying that Pitino's recruiting has "improved," he happened to have a legacy kid that was probably just short of getting an offer with most bluebloods slobbering all over him like Trent/Tyus. I think that's the difference.

Is that a bad thing? No. This isn't to rip Pitino. He still has to close the deal on Coffey, so I am not suggesting that he didn't help that. However, a lot more will have to happen before most of the 5-star and some of the 4-star guys stay in town.

Pitino is always going to go after some risky higher star guys and then take major risks at other spots. Richard has gotten several 3/4-star guys with solid offer sheets that are "risks" due to being a bit more raw or maybe ones that the big dogs cooled on after getting another look. Iowa, Wisconsin, Virginia...generally they may get the more "solid" 3-star guys that have a higher hit-rate.

Shaka took on similar players at VCU but found the right ones/coached them up to being mostly hits. So far, Richard has missed a little too often.
 

GoUgophers said:
Iowa has notoriously had trouble recruiting in Chicago since the Jimmy Collins/Bruce Pearl scandal in the late-80's. They haven't had a recruit of signifance in basketball from there since them.
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For the most part, you are correct.

Although, one could argue the most significant recruit of the Steve Alford era was a Chicago kid. Pierre Pierce caused such a drop in Alford approval rating that it began the end for Alford as a coach in Iowa.

Current coach Fran McCaffery has definitely picked up recruiting in Chicago, landing two from there last year, and being in the final three for Kentucky guard Tyler Ulis (a Chicagoland product).
 

RickDornsby said:
To those saying that Pitino's recruiting has "improved," he happened to have a legacy kid that was probably just short of getting an offer with most bluebloods slobbering all over him like Trent/Tyus. I think that's the difference.

Is that a bad thing? No. This isn't to rip Pitino. He still has to close the deal on Coffey, so I am not suggesting that he didn't help that. However, a lot more will have to happen before most of the 5-star and some of the 4-star guys stay in town.

Pitino is always going to go after some risky higher star guys and then take major risks at other spots. Richard has gotten several 3/4-star guys with solid offer sheets that are "risks" due to being a bit more raw or maybe ones that the big dogs cooled on after getting another look. Iowa, Wisconsin, Virginia...generally they may get the more "solid" 3-star guys that have a higher hit-rate.

Shaka took on similar players at VCU but found the right ones/coached them up to being mostly hits. So far, Richard has missed a little too often.
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That's the key right there. Haskins sent an average of about one player a year to the NBA (for at least a cup of coffee), not because he recruited top shelf talent all the time, but he and his staff developed the heck out of them. When it came to player development, he was a man with a plan.
 

RickDornsby said:
To those saying that Pitino's recruiting has "improved," he happened to have a legacy kid that was probably just short of getting an offer with most bluebloods slobbering all over him like Trent/Tyus. I think that's the difference.

Is that a bad thing? No. This isn't to rip Pitino. He still has to close the deal on Coffey, so I am not suggesting that he didn't help that. However, a lot more will have to happen before most of the 5
It was widely believed Coffey would go to ISU, he was never a lock. I know it's women's basketball but Coffey's daughters all went elsewhere.
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Bad Gopher said:
Haskins sent an average of about one player a year to the NBA (for at least a cup of coffee), not because he recruited top shelf talent all the time, but he and his staff developed the heck out of them.
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That's pretty impressive. That accomplishment probably would be a bit more difficult now (except for a small number of programs) because he coached in the era prior to the larger influx of foreign players.
 

cjbfbp said:
That's pretty impressive. That accomplishment probably would be a bit more difficult now (except for a small number of programs) because he coached in the era prior to the larger influx of foreign players.
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I agree, it's more advantageous for an NBA team to draft foreign in the second round, like the wolves did with Pek and the Bulgarian kid and even Rubio to an extent you can stash them in professional Euro ball for a few years for more seasoning and over here with the emergence of AAU ball since the Clem area, guys come in way closer to a finished product than they use too. Freshman are more ready to step in right away and I think players reach their ceiling quicker, which I think can sometimes create unrealistic expectations for player development. It seems like you take every high school grade these days and have a pretty good idea who is going to be a first round pick.
 

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