CBS: Pennsylvanians want Joe Paterno statue restored at Penn State

[cncmin]

Costas v Freeh? Sportscaster v respected investigator who led some of the nations most important investigations. What has Costas ever done? His degree in Communications certainly must match the JD of Freeh and his commentary must certainly match the motions of Freeh! Surely, Freeh must have been mistaken in his conclusions after taking record of testimony, accounts, papers, emails and depositions from across Pennsylvania State University. The only thing that PSU has accomplished is to discredit the Consent Decree between itself and the NCAA by making the NCAA look like a bunch of clowns. The Freeh Report remains intact as a document un-impugned by the recent court cases. Be that as it may, Costas calling the facts in question by the demise of the Consent Decree is like saying all the evidence is now in question. Far from it. It is intellectual dishonesty to link the two as being one in the same. The Freeh report remains the core critical investigation into the conduct of the administration during the Sandusky era. It's findings of fact to date have not been impeached as unreliable or invalid.

But, let's all listen to the sports commentator. His opinion matters more than Louis Freeh. Got it. We should all be so supportive of the guy who sits behind the microphone. Automatic cred! Right?

Dean, ok. Would you care to share the facts stated in Freeh's case against Mr. Paterno? Freeh's case was heavily criticized by another man of fine stature, former United States Attorney General and former Governor of Pennsylvania Dick Thornburgh. IMO, neither is above reproach; all men have opinions, all individuals are driven by motives and incentives.

The Freeh report as a whole has been heavily criticized. Deservedly so? I don't know. But I'm not the one doing the criticizing, I'm just a reader. For example, specifically regarding Paterno himself: http://deadspin.com/prosecutor-from-sandusky-trial-joe-paterno-not-involve-1252192930 While I think people in PA are jumping the gun a bit on the prospect of restoring the Paterno statue, I also think that others should also let things play out before cementing their opinions; as the case continues to unfold.

 

[Deleted_User]

Dean, ok. Would you care to share the facts stated in Freeh's case against Mr. Paterno? Freeh's case was heavily criticized by another man of fine stature, former United States Attorney General and former Governor of Pennsylvania Dick Thornburgh. IMO, neither is above reproach; all men have opinions, all individuals are driven by motives and incentives.

The Freeh report as a whole has been heavily criticized. Deservedly so? I don't know. But I'm not the one doing the criticizing, I'm just a reader. For example, specifically regarding Paterno himself: http://deadspin.com/prosecutor-from-sandusky-trial-joe-paterno-not-involve-1252192930 While I think people in PA are jumping the gun a bit on the prospect of restoring the Paterno statue, I also think that others should also let things play out before cementing their opinions; as the case continues to unfold.

Where has the Freeh report been impugned by the legal community? I don't know of a single instance. Not one. Do you? Right now, the way Freeh is being impugned is through his communication with the NCAA. The report is not in question by any party involved in the current lawsuit. Why? Because that report stands with evidence backing it every sentence along the way with corroborative evidence. This is the nature of independent investigations. Either there was evidence to make a statement or that statement does not get included. And, once all the claims are substantiated with corroborative evidence, then the opinion of the record is made. This is what the Freeh team was commissioned to do and they did it well enough for the leadership team at PSU to sign the paper. The facts are known. The only question is where do you stand in relationship to those facts? I advise you to not stand with PSU. There is no merit to it. PSU is not rising out of the ashes looking better. They look far more slimy. The law passed by the assembly looks even more like tampering with a private legal matter. It is not only stinky in PA, it is downright putrid.

 

[Kuato Lives!]

Penn State fans wanting the statue of a man who was involved (what degree is up for debate i guess) in the cover up of sexual assault against children proudly displayed on their campus only reiterates what the general public already knew and that is that sports reigns supreme above all else in PA. PSU is now two coaches removed from Sandusky and on the path to forging a new identity yet they want to display a statue that to those outside the program represents the sickening football culture that got them into this mess in the first place. PSU fans deserve the taunting that they get from opposing fans.

 

[bottlebass]

Penn State fans wanting the statue of a man who was involved (what degree is up for debate i guess) in the cover up of sexual assault against children proudly displayed on their campus only reiterates what the general public already knew and that is that sports reigns supreme above all else in PA. PSU is now two coaches removed from Sandusky and on the path to forging a new identity yet they want to display a statue that to those outside the program represents the sickening football culture that got them into this mess in the first place. PSU fans deserve the taunting that they get from opposing fans.

Or the statue could just represent:
1. The college football coach with the most wins in history
2. a coach that was there for 45 years
3. a coach that led the team to 2 national championships
4. and 3 B1G titles
5. 29 seasons ending in a top 10 ranking

They aren't putting up a statue of Sandusky as your post would indicate.... The football and athletic culture at Penn St was one of the best in the nation BECAUSE of Paterno. They had a higher graduation rate for their football players than almost any other school.

 

[WanderingGopher]

Penn State fans wanting the statue of a man who was involved (what degree is up for debate i guess) in the cover up of sexual assault against children proudly displayed on their campus only reiterates what the general public already knew and that is that sports reigns supreme above all else in PA. PSU is now two coaches removed from Sandusky and on the path to forging a new identity yet they want to display a statue that to those outside the program represents the sickening football culture that got them into this mess in the first place. PSU fans deserve the taunting that they get from opposing fans.

+1

Couldn't have said it better. And I cannot comprehend the ignorance of those urging to "let this play out." Even if you were to view the whole situation/history in the light most favorable to Paterno and the football program (which IMO would require suspending disbelief), replacing this statue is beyond inappropriate.

 

[WanderingGopher]

The football and athletic culture at Penn St was one of the best in the nation

This laughably ignorant attitude, in light of what we now know, is what will continue to subject Penn State and its fans to their well deserved derision and ridicule.

 

[bottlebass]

This laughably ignorant attitude, in light of what we now know, is what will continue to subject Penn State and its fans to their well deserved derision and ridicule.

Then you (or whoever "we" is) don't know very much about college football history.

 

[MRJ]

Then you (or whoever "we" is) don't know very much about college football history.

This has nothing to do with college football history. It has to do with a group of administrators, including some very close to the football program, willfully keeping pedophilia under wraps for more than a decade hoping it would never see the light of day. If you want to worship Paterno as a football coach only, then have at it. But he wasn't some messiah Penn Staters claim he was. They regard him as some form of deity that showed us the way to athletic and personal salvation. It's creepy. It's sick. And it's continuing unabated. Hence, their continuing insistence that they're the true victims in this situation and still better than everyone else.

 

[bottlebass]

This has nothing to do with college football history. It has to do with a group of administrators, including some very close to the football program, willfully keeping pedophilia under wraps for more than a decade hoping it would never see the light of day. If you want to worship Paterno as a football coach only, then have at it. But he wasn't some messiah Penn Staters claim he was. They regard him as some form of deity that showed us the way to athletic and personal salvation. It's creepy. It's sick. And it's continuing unabated. Hence, their continuing insistence that they're the true victims in this situation and still better than everyone else.

Wanderinggopher attacked the statement "the football and athletic culture at penn st was one of the best in the country". That statement had nothing to do with the scandal and the administrators trying to cover it up. It had everything to do with the fact that Penn st football culture was one of the best in the country. Had won national championships. Had a coach that had won there for 40+ seasons and has the most wins in history. Had 3 recent big ten titles. Had one of the highest graduation rates for football players out of any school. I could keep going but anybody with a brain can understand the point and that it was not "laughably ignorant" like wanderinggopher said.

I'm not a Penn st fan. Never was never will be. but as a college football fan I can respect the accomplishments of Paterno. He is the winningest coach in history. That's quite the accomplishment.

 

[MRJ]

Wanderinggopher attacked the statement "the football and athletic culture at penn st was one of the best in the country". That statement had nothing to do with the scandal and the administrators trying to cover it up. It had everything to do with the fact that Penn st football culture was one of the best in the country. Had won national championships. Had a coach that had won there for 40+ seasons and has the most wins in history. Had 3 recent big ten titles. Had one of the highest graduation rates for football players out of any school. I could keep going but anybody with a brain can understand the point and that it was not "laughably ignorant" like wanderinggopher said.

I'm not a Penn st fan. Never was never will be. but as a college football fan I can respect the accomplishments of Paterno. He is the winningest coach in history. That's quite the accomplishment.

I understand what you're saying, but it could be very reasonably argued that the impetus for the entire scandal was to maintain said culture at all costs. If that was the case here, and there is plenty of reasons to think so, you have to wonder what type of culture was truly being fostered at Penn State.

 

[Gopher Bandanna Guy]

Fair post...Paterno most definitely knew something was going on; we can all agree on that. However, after reading a lot on the subject I sincerely have major doubts that he ever knew the gravity of the situation; this based on a large variety evidence I've come across. Clearly he was pretty hands-off about the whole situation (and he was legally forced to be), and keep in mind that he was not actually in charge of Sandusky at the time (Sandusky wasn't his employee), and there was little he could legally do to keep Sandusky away, who had been granted "Emeritus" access at PSU. (Conversely, one can imagine a lawsuit coming his way if he tries to deny someone their legal access based on unfounded allegations.)

Claims of a cover-up by PSU are heavily weakened considering they called Sandusky's charity (The Second Mile) about the McQueary incident (who covers things up by telling others?). Claims of a cover-up by Paterno himself are very weak considering he reported it to the very people he was required to report it to. The McQueary incident itself is heavily weakened considering that the Grand Jury report introduced highly damaging false testimony about that incident that is completely absent of the transcripts (claimed McQueary saw "anal rape", though he certainly never testified such). Those explosive (but false) accusations are what set the firestorm ablaze in the first place.

As for the relationship between Sandusky and Paterno, anything I've heard is that Paterno didn't really like him. I searched for a reference to share; the first I came across was this: http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/08/joe_paterno_biography_describe.html The way I understand it, Sandusky wasn't forced out as DC, he quit to focus on his charity (*ahem!*) after Paterno said he was not going to retire his position to Sandusky. If Paterno didn't like him, then reasons to intentionally cover anything up become increasingly weaker.

Paterno was a figurehead at PSU due to his legend and his kind public personality, but at the time this was going down, Paterno was in hot water (for sudden losing football), and his clout was probably at an all-time low. It would not have been a good time for Paterno to be making any demands.

His reputation is forever tarnished due to this; whether fully justified or only partially justified. The man still built that program, was extremely benovolent and donated greatly back to PSU, and - perhaps in flawed manner - ran a program that was championed across the nation. He prepared many men for their successful futures. For that, perhaps a statue - now flawed - is yet deserved. I'm not saying that I agree with putting it back up - at least not now - however, I understand why many people feel that it should.

All of that said, it can be a very emotional subject, and one that will forever have people of good minds taking completely opposite sides.

Some interesting points here. I think the term 'cover-up' may not be the most appropriate. Perhaps 'turning a blind eye' or 'willful ignorance' is more appropriate. That said, it doesn't change that not nearly enough was done to stop or even dissuade Sandusky on using PSU facilities, despite multiple reports that came in over the years that Sandusky had been observed doing less than wholesome things with children on campus, in football facilities.

I have my doubts that Paterno 'didn't really like Sandusky'. You don't keep a guy on staff for 30 years if you don't like the guy, unless he's really good at his job. By all accounts and statistics though, Sandusky was indeed very good at his job. He also was at the peak of his career successes when he either left for a career in 'philanthropy' or was forced out under the table. Given the timeline of his 'incidents', it seems dreadfully convenient that in 1998, his showering with a boy was brought to the attention of police by his mother, and Gary Schultz was made aware, as well as Paterno. Then, suddenly Sandusky retires. Note that I'm only using the elements of the timeline that were public knowledge at the time (police report filed, University officials notified), and not evidence admitted later by victims.

http://blogs.post-gazette.com/scandal/timeline.php

Regardless, I don't disagree that Paterno was a good man in many other elements of his life. But the one time he could have stood up and been an even bigger hero, he failed. Miserably and definitively. He knew something wasn't right with Sandusky, as evidenced by his interest in how the police investigations were proceeding. Diminished clout or no, Paterno (and also Schultz, Spanier) had a chance to stand up and do the right thing by taking steps with administration to see that Sandusky was permanently barred from campus. Whatever the reason that didn't happen, at best it shows PSU to be tremendous cowards, and at worst, indirectly complicit.

PSU dolts may want to honor Paterno for the good he has done, but you can't talk about the man without the horrible final chapter of his tenure that he played a part in, however minor some want to spin it. The fact that the Joebots don't understand how horrible the optics are on restoring the statue, shows me just how insensitive they are towards the victims and their familes.

 

[cncmin]

I understand what you're saying, but it could be very reasonably argued that the impetus for the entire scandal was to maintain said culture at all costs. If that was the case here, and there is plenty of reasons to think so, you have to wonder what type of culture was truly being fostered at Penn State.

Yes, but it also can be argued that the scandal had nothing at all to do with that, as well. We know some prominent administrators messed up bigtime; we don't know what they knew, nor do we know their impetuses. I guess that's why I personally suggest patience for the legal system to get to those administrators, where more of the truth should come out.

 

[cncmin]

Some interesting points here. I think the term 'cover-up' may not be the most appropriate. Perhaps 'turning a blind eye' or 'willful ignorance' is more appropriate. That said, it doesn't change that not nearly enough was done to stop or even dissuade Sandusky on using PSU facilities, despite multiple reports that came in over the years that Sandusky had been observed doing less than wholesome things with children on campus, in football facilities.

...

I don't really disagree with the things you've said here, and it presents a fair counter-argument.

One thing regarding "insensitivity" toward the victims...I don't believe that should be a concern:
A quick Google search shows significant philanthropy toward the victims from the PSU community.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/penn-state-scandal-alumni_n_1095378.html

https://rainn.org/proudpsuforrainn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_State_IFC/Panhellenic_Dance_Marathon
This one isn't for child abuse, per se, rather, for sick children in general. I've seen PSU students raising money for Thon here in Pittsburgh, and as far away as Virginia (middle of a busy street in Reston, for example).

Their student section tribute to Virginia Tech in 2007 made my eyes sweaty:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnNjc_kTHz0

 

[MRJ]

Yes, but it also can be argued that the scandal had nothing at all to do with that, as well. We know some prominent administrators messed up bigtime; we don't know what they knew, nor do we know their impetuses. I guess that's why I personally suggest patience for the legal system to get to those administrators, where more of the truth should come out.

Fair perspective to take.

 

[Deleted_User]

If Mike McQueary's brother had not had a conversation about what Mike saw in a shower room on a message board, like GH, the prosecutor would never had interviewed McQueary. It was a member of a message board that suggested to the investigators that Mike McQueary be interviewed. Interesting fact.