Yeah, this is completely normal…😳


saintpaulguy

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I'm not implying KGF is a racist by the way. It's just another topic people used to debate, and now in hindsight looks silly.
 

KillerGopherFan

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People who differ from the norm exist. We both know that. The arguments that some people, as they exist, do not add positively to the human collective somehow are pretty silly in modernity--we aren't really being threatened by depopulation. And, looking at things like that tends toward eugenics more than I care to. Focus on the rights of the individual, and not how the individual fits into whatever greater purpose of nature you are thinking is being served.

Insert nineteen page objectivist rant here.
Point me to the post where I said that “some people…do not add positively to the human collective…”? Or where I mentioned that they must be eliminated?

You’re deflecting with a very nice intellectual argument that I’m not even making.

I’m only talking about the slow degradation of social norms and how we get there, to the point that we not only “know that people exist”, but are gradually being forced to celebrate and endorse their existence or be canceled or called bigoted, etc.

I am focusing on the rights of the individual. I explicitly posted against discrimination of individuals that are out of the norm. But do we need to give them extra rights? Do we need to tolerate pedophilia, which is where this argument started? Or polygamy?

But you ignore all of that to make some grand argument that I’m not even arguing against.

The black QB comment is evidence that your argument is about forcing conformity of beliefs to your thinking or that you just want me to stop talking b/c you can’t figure out how I’m wrong. You want others to stop discussing things that you don’t care for them to contemplate. So much for individual rights. Your black QB comment is a base argument and not worthy of a response that I have given it.
 


KillerGopherFan

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I'm not implying KGF is a racist by the way. It's just another topic people used to debate, and now in hindsight looks silly.
Now that you mention it, it kinda looks that way. Too late to take it back though. MplsGopher would be so proud. You’ve got his support.
 



howeda7

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I’m not the one claiming to KNOW a lot more about the origins of homosexuality. It could be genetically passed or not. You said it was. But apparently no proof of that exists.
They haven't identified one singular "gay gene", which let's bigots say "see it's not genetic!" There is ample evidence that it is genetically fixed at birth. There's no left-handed gene either and some ignorant fools used to try to "fix" that in their kids too.
 

howeda7

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The classic Howie pivot. Make an incorrect assertion, get corrected, attack motives.
I'm not pivoting, you're deflecting. Do you think the change to no longer calling it a mental disorder was incorrect? If not, who cares what the "motivation" 50 years ago was?
 




howeda7

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I’m only talking about the slow degradation of social norms and how we get there, to the point that we not only “know that people exist”, but are gradually being forced to celebrate and endorse their existence or be canceled or called bigoted, etc.

I am focusing on the rights of the individual. I explicitly posted against discrimination of individuals that are out of the norm.
More talking out of both sides of your mouth. "They're contributing to the degradation of social norms. I'm being slowly forced to celebrate them! But I have no problem with them!"

Who's forcing you to "celebrate" anything?

But do we need to give them extra rights?
What extra rights might those be?
 

Section2

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I'm not pivoting, you're deflecting. Do you think the change to no longer calling it a mental disorder was incorrect? If not, who cares what the "motivation" 50 years ago was?
I’m not a psychologist. I don’t know what their procedures and methods are in determining what is a disorder and what is normal. What I do know is that this change was political and not the result of a scientific process. And it obviously should be a scientific process if their credibility is important.
 

Section2

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More talking out of both sides of your mouth. "They're contributing to the degradation of social norms. I'm being slowly forced to celebrate them! But I have no problem with them!"

Who's forcing you to "celebrate" anything?


What extra rights might those be?
Being gay puts you in a protected class. If there aren’t any extra rights, why does the slogan LGBT rights exist? It should just be human rights and we should all have the same ones.
 

MplsGopher

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But do we need to give them extra rights? Do we need to tolerate pedophilia
You can't "grant" someone the "right" to take away the right of someone else, which is what pedo requires (taking away the right of giving consent).

So this is a silly non-comparison.


Any two adults, with any two biologies and/or identities, can consent to do whatever they want to each other, and it is perfectly, exactly acceptable as a man and woman having missionary sex with their clothes on and a picture of jebus next to the bed. The norm in Florida.
 




howeda7

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Being gay puts you in a protected class. If there aren’t any extra rights, why does the slogan LGBT rights exist? It should just be human rights and we should all have the same ones.
Because in many places they don't have equal rights. Until last year, you could be fired or kicked out of your apartment in the majority of states in the US for being gay. In many countries these things and worse are still the case.

The only "special" right is hate crimes statutes but that would apply to all groups covered under them. I hardly think anyone would sign up for being subject to discrimination and worse in exchange for the possibility that if they get assaulted or murdered, their attacker might get extra months tacked on their prison term. But sure "special" rights.
 

howeda7

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I’m not a psychologist. I don’t know what their procedures and methods are in determining what is a disorder and what is normal. What I do know is that this change was political and not the result of a scientific process. And it obviously should be a scientific process if their credibility is important.
The vast majority of psychologists today and for years do not consider it a mental disorder. Is that sufficient to say that the change was proper?
 

Section2

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Because in many places they don't have equal rights. Until last year, you could be fired or kicked out of your apartment in the majority of states in the US for being gay. In many countries these things and worse are still the case.

The only "special" right is hate crimes statutes but that would apply to all groups covered under them. I hardly think anyone would sign up for being subject to discrimination and worse in exchange for the possibility that if they get assaulted or murdered, their attacker might get extra months tacked on their prison term. But sure "special" rights.
Can you be fired and kicked out of your apartment for any reason? This apartment situation is a new one for me. Can you link to this actually happening?
At will employment means anyone can be fired for any reason. If you carve out “not for being gay” that’s a special right.
 


Section2

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The vast majority of psychologists today and for years do not consider it a mental disorder. Is that sufficient to say that the change was proper?
The national psychology associations changed their assessment of homosexuality due to political pressure, not scientific methods. It can’t be any more clear than that. Bold stark terms. Now psychologists are taught that it’s not a mental disorder so they don’t consider it one, WOW.
 


Ski U Mah Gopher

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…it’s not indoctrination. Just a typical school field trip.

Not only are they advocating for a particular lifestyle to children, it’s a bar. Even gay people would think this is loony.



Some things from the article:

1. The owners of the restaurant have been doing a program with the school for about 10 years
2. The purpose of the program is educational learning math by adding prices on the menu, and learning about jobs at a restaurant.
3. They made a kid friendly menu with 3 items (probably more of a choice than they get with school lunch).
 

MplsGopher

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Some things from the article:

1. The owners of the restaurant have been doing a program with the school for about 10 years
2. The purpose of the program is educational learning math by adding prices on the menu, and learning about jobs at a restaurant.
3. They made a kid friendly menu with 3 items (probably more of a choice than they get with school lunch).
It was just a stunt, right before the election, anyway.

No one actually gave a shit about the kids, who of course weren't harmed in the slightest.
 

Wally

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I’m not a psychologist. I don’t know what their procedures and methods are in determining what is a disorder and what is normal. What I do know is that this change was political and not the result of a scientific process. And it obviously should be a scientific process if their credibility is important.
What is and isn't a mental disorder is to a large degree a political statement, many things called disorders are just natural human variation. Because these people don't fit well into our current society structure its called a disorder. Obviously some things are beyond that but many aren't.
 

Section2

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What is and isn't a mental disorder is to a large degree a political statement, many things called disorders are just natural human variation. Because these people don't fit well into our current society structure its called a disorder. Obviously some things are beyond that but many aren't.
You’re arguing that psychology is pseudo science and I’d agree you might have a point.
 

howeda7

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Can you be fired and kicked out of your apartment for any reason? This apartment situation is a new one for me. Can you link to this actually happening?
At will employment means anyone can be fired for any reason. If you carve out “not for being gay” that’s a special right.
No, you can't be evicted for just any reason. You can't evict someone for being black or Muslim. I'm not 100% sure if the SCOTUS ruling last year covers housing or not, so it's possible you can still be evicted simply for being gay in most states. I know you think that's awesome. Most people find it abhorrent. It's not a "special right" not to be discriminated against.

You can't fire someone for being straight, so why should you be able to fire them for being gay? At will employment doesn't change either of those.
 

howeda7

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The national psychology associations changed their assessment of homosexuality due to political pressure, not scientific methods. It can’t be any more clear than that. Bold stark terms. Now psychologists are taught that it’s not a mental disorder so they don’t consider it one, WOW.
You whine about it being "political" (without evidence) but you won't say whether the assessment is wrong. Why not?
 

KillerGopherFan

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They haven't identified one singular "gay gene", which let's bigots say "see it's not genetic!" There is ample evidence that it is genetically fixed at birth. There's no left-handed gene either and some ignorant fools used to try to "fix" that in their kids too.
Yeah, I’ve said that I believe it’s at birth and that in the vast majority of cases, it is not a mental disorder.

Why do you and SPG keep arguing with facts that I agree with?
 

Section2

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You whine about it being "political" (without evidence) but you won't say whether the assessment is wrong. Why not?
I’m not a psychologist. Homosexuality is abnormal obviously. I don’t know what qualifies as mental illness. It’s classification doesn’t change my view one way or the other. People should be free to be gay or straight with no interference from government.
 

Section2

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No, you can't be evicted for just any reason. You can't evict someone for being black or Muslim. I'm not 100% sure if the SCOTUS ruling last year covers housing or not, so it's possible you can still be evicted simply for being gay in most states. I know you think that's awesome. Most people find it abhorrent. It's not a "special right" not to be discriminated against.

You can't fire someone for being straight, so why should you be able to fire them for being gay? At will employment doesn't change either of those.
So then being black and Muslim is a protected class, same as being gay.

I have no problem with any discrimination, I am 100% in favor of freedom of association. If you own an apartment, you should be able to rent to whomever you choose. If you own a business, you can hire whoever you want. For any reason whatsoever. Most landlords want clean tenants that pay rent on time and aren’t a disturbance. Most business owners want productive hard working employees. If you are a good tenant and a good employee, especially in the US in 2020, you don’t need the force of law.
 

saintpaulguy

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So then being black and Muslim is a protected class, same as being gay.

I have no problem with any discrimination, I am 100% in favor of freedom of association. If you own an apartment, you should be able to rent to whomever you choose. If you own a business, you can hire whoever you want. For any reason whatsoever. Most landlords want clean tenants that pay rent on time and aren’t a disturbance. Most business owners want productive hard working employees. If you are a good tenant and a good employee, especially in the US in 2020, you don’t need the force of law.
I just want to say thank you for using whom correctly. Whom takes the object.
 




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