What is the solution to doubling little Dre on the pick and roll?

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fryguy22

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Just curious to hear some insightful analysis here. I have confidence Richard will adjust to other teams doubling DeAndre on the pick and roll, but yesterday's game was tough to watch. My initial thought would be:

- Get downscreen action on one side of the court, and a V cut on the other side, as the pick and roll is coming
- the "2" and "3" are both cutting to the wings as the pick and roll action is happening
- If they double little Dre, he hits one of our wing players as EE / Mo roll to the hoop
- Our wing players look for EE / Mo on the roll, or failing that, get into our offensive set

I think this could be effective because little Dre making a pass to 1 of 2 wings is an easier play out of the double team than trying to feed a Center rolling to the basket at a straight line. But, this is just one idea. Any other thoughts?
 

Dre could grow 8 inches quick so he could pass over the top :)
 

Grow shorter and go between their legs.
 

There are a lot of ways of beating the double ball screen on the top, but dre needs time to practice beating it. It's not something you can scribble up during a TO or even at half.

My limited coaching tells me:

My hunch is you'll see Minnesota flash a big to the elbow opposite of where it's coming from, and then a series of back cuts if they are over playing or opportunities to reverse the ball for an open 3. The key is for dre to recognize where it's coming from, the big to recognize and for him to make a quick and accurate bounce pass. You can't simply beat it by dribbling because the double follows you. It would be incredible to have another big so you could have Moe flash and high low to EE. Or vice versa. Elliot can hit that free throw jumper if not contested.

In theory, it's similar to beating the 1-3-1
 

I think the problem is more likely that the scheme was unexpected more than anything else. I have full confidence this will be exploited as the season goes along.

Doesn't matter what the offensive set is, all D'Dre had to do was pass the ball before the double-team swarm arrived. Instead, he let himself get trapped by taller players, then made it worse by panicking for little reason. Notice whenever the Gophers double-team, Neb (and other teams) calmly wait for the opening and then it's a 4-3 advantage, which Neb fully exploited, the Gophers did not.

D'Dre just had a bad game, those things happen.
 


Hammer em' said:
There are a lot of ways of beating the double ball screen on the top, but dre needs time to practice beating it. It's not something you can scribble up during a TO or even at half.

My limited coaching tells me:

My hunch is you'll see Minnesota flash a big to the elbow opposite of where it's coming from, and then a series of back cuts if they are over playing or opportunities to reverse the ball for an open 3. The key is for dre to recognize where it's coming from, the big to recognize and for him to make a quick and accurate bounce pass. You can't simply beat it by dribbling because the double follows you. It would be incredible to have another big so you could have Moe flash and high low to EE. Or vice versa. Elliot can hit that free throw jumper if not contested.

In theory, it's similar to beating the 1-3-1
Click to expand...

Nicely stated...
 

Mathieu needs to be more aggresive and attack. Only two of his turnovers were because of NE defense.

This according to coach Pitino.
 

Two options:

One: Lil Dre takes a more direct angle at the basket leaving more passing lanes to the wing and give more chances to split the double.

or

Two (and this is probably the better of the two ideas): Let Pitino, Lil Dre, and the rest of the team watch the tape and scheme a way to combat this.

Option two - definitely option two.
 

SkinnyGopher said:
Two options:

One: Lil Dre takes a more direct angle at the basket leaving more passing lanes to the wing and give more chances to split the double.

or

Two (and this is probably the better of the two ideas): Let Pitino, Lil Dre, and the rest of the team watch the tape and scheme a way to combat this.

Option two - definitely option two.
Click to expand...

Good point. What a stupid idea to discuss what they might do on a Gopher basketball message forum designed to foster precisely that type of discussion for amusement and informational purposes. This board would be much more interesting if we only dealt in facts.
 



Pitino in the post game press conference said something to the effect of Dre is too quick to get trapped like that. I thought in general, Nebraska did a good job of trapping lil Dre with a 2nd defender who was fairly athletic and I think in hindsight we shouldn't have run the pick and rooll's at the time and focused on getting the ball in to the big on the post who was being guarded by smaller/quicker guy. If the double came from a guy like Kaminsky from Wisconsin, I don't think lil Dre would have had the same issues he had last night. If Pitino really wants lil Dre to just attack/split the double, then I'd suggest moving the high screen out a few feet and keeping the wings in the corners so that lil Dre has maximum floor space to operate without the threat of a third defender taking a charge or creating a turnover in some other manner.
 

GopherJake said:
Good point. What a stupid idea to discuss what they might do on a Gopher basketball message forum designed to foster precisely that type of discussion for amusement and informational purposes. This board would be much more interesting if we only dealt in facts.
Click to expand...

+1
 

I have been estatic with Dre's pg performance this year. My one concern is that he either looks like a world beater or like he made a freshmen mistake when he drives into the lane during transition when the defense has numbers. Sometimes his quickness/athletism allows him to make a phenomenal play when he really should pull it out (Penn st., Wisconsin). This conversion seems to make him attempt this more and more and at the end of games it sometimes becomes a turnover (NE, Iowa, Mich). I also think Dre could force people to foul him even more and get to the line (79%).
Fryguy, all of those ideas sound good.
 

To be honest, its a screener who can finish above the rim. One of the biggest issues is that Dre cannot lob a pass over the top of the defense to a big that can go up and get it. We are soo limited on entry passes because of the lack of athleticism from our 4 and 5 positions. Throw in the fact that Nebraska has some very athletic wings, it was quite easy for them to feel confident that a wing could come down and contest any pass to the rolling big without fear of us finishing over the top of them. Think Arkansas and Florida State and how their long athletic bigs cause havoc for our backdoor defense, anytime we got over committed (a situation that happens anytime you double someone as everyone "bumps up" to the ball) they just played the ball high and went up and got it. If you set a high ball screen with say Rodney Williams or Trevor Mbakwe, sending whomever is guarding our 2 on the left wing isn't going to be able to defend a ball thrown up to those two freaks. Substitue Mo and EE who can barely put credit cards under their shoes, I might be able to contest.

2nd issue is Dre's size, he struggles getting the ball up and or around a 5 who is hedging. Its one thing to have someone who can go and get the ball, its another getting it there.

Neither of these issues are solvable this year. So I think we have 2 options.

Run less High ball screens with our lumbering 4s and 5s and rely more on another aspect of our offense, dribble drive/weave esque sets that Pitino has and or a heavier inside out game.

Or understand that teams are going to collapse on the roller and run some sort of down screen action out of the high pick and roll to free up Malik for a wide open three after a quick pass to the opposite wing. This would require two clean deft passes and a solid down screen, however, knock down a couple threes and it might just get a team out of it.
 



Winasota Gopher said:
To be honest, its a screener who can finish above the rim. One of the biggest issues is that Dre cannot lob a pass over the top of the defense to a big that can go up and get it. We are soo limited on entry passes because of the lack of athleticism from our 4 and 5 positions. Throw in the fact that Nebraska has some very athletic wings, it was quite easy for them to feel confident that a wing could come down and contest any pass to the rolling big without fear of us finishing over the top of them. Think Arkansas and Florida State and how their long athletic bigs cause havoc for our backdoor defense, anytime we got over committed (a situation that happens anytime you double someone as everyone "bumps up" to the ball) they just played the ball high and went up and got it. If you set a high ball screen with say Rodney Williams or Trevor Mbakwe, sending whomever is guarding our 2 on the left wing isn't going to be able to defend a ball thrown up to those two freaks. Substitue Mo and EE who can barely put credit cards under their shoes, I might be able to contest.

2nd issue is Dre's size, he struggles getting the ball up and or around a 5 who is hedging. Its one thing to have someone who can go and get the ball, its another getting it there.

Neither of these issues are solvable this year. So I think we have 2 options.

Run less High ball screens with our lumbering 4s and 5s and rely more on another aspect of our offense, dribble drive/weave esque sets that Pitino has and or a heavier inside out game.

Or understand that teams are going to collapse on the roller and run some sort of down screen action out of the high pick and roll to free up Malik for a wide open three after a quick pass to the opposite wing. This would require two clean deft passes and a solid down screen, however, knock down a couple threes and it might just get a team out of it.
Click to expand...

Good points here.
I agree, we probably will see more straight feeds to the post. But you still can utilize the pick and roll, you may need to do more of it out of a wing set(ala Tex Winter's triangle offense). But with Dre' out and Austin struggling, teams will sag and force more 3 pointers. I still think it would be nice to find ways of getting EE the ball on the free throw line, which will force that big to come out clearing up the opposite side for a cutter.
 

Dre is quick enough , one of the quickest in the country it seems, and should be able the split the trap. I think he may gotten a little tentative, out of sorts and it carried over to the rest of the game. I thnk he just needs to attack the trap agressively and split it.
 

Don't set the pick with the center.

I understand that if our wings set a ball screen most teams will just switch the screen. So we screen with the big man, where the defenders don't want to switch and end up with either a size or quickness mismatch. If the defenders only hedge, the pass to the rolling post man has sometimes worked (although both EE and Mo make me nervous when they start rolling to the basket all the way from the 3-point line!). When Nebraska didn't just hedge but doubled Lil Dre we should have stopped having the center set the screen and had Joey or Oto do it. Their defenders are still a little too big to want to switch on the screen, and if they had doubled Lil Dre the screener could have popped to the side for an open 3-pointer. Better yet, I wouldn't screen for Lil Dre at all. My bet is he can get by almost any defender without the need for a screen. Screen with our wings until the defense's slowest defender switches onto Dre and then flatten out to a 1-4 set with Smith and Austin in the corners (setting up for 3) and the 4 and 5 on the blocks. Let Dre blow by the defender, dish to whoever is left open by the helping defender, or stop and pop in the lane for the short jumper or floater. It puts a lot in Dre's hands, but he could have gone off for 29 instead of Smith and we wouldn't have seen the double at all.
 

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