What happened with the growth of basketball talent in our state?

[Schnauzer]

I'm guessing this has been discussed here before but I haven't been as active historically on the basketball board. I have always loved basketball and I was able to play some DIII ball in college. I have always followed the high school scene in MN pretty closely, at least pretty closely compared to most people but certainly not as closely as most of the people on the GH basketball board.

What I'd love to hear is why MN is producing so many more quality players now, compared to "my day". I remember playing in an Augsburg summer league in the late 80's that consisted of mostly local college (D1 and D2) players. I had a teammate on that team that that had won Minnesota Mr. Basketball, and was playing at a DII school (Augustana, I think).

There'd be a great player with can't miss D1 skills that would come along every now and then and there'd be a few Minnesotans that would go to play D1 each year including most years when maybe a player or two would be good enough to get recruited by the Gophers. There'd be a Kevin McHale here, or a Tom Copa there... but it wasn't exactly an avalanche of D1 players. It seems to me like the before/after of this situation was the Sam Jacobson era. He was the kind of player that filled high school gyms to see him play, and after his arrival it seems like the frequency of great players started to shorten. It is to the point now where there are great players every year.

How do you go from having Mr. MN basketball playing D2, to a point where there are multiple viewpoints expressed on GH that a coach could make a good Big 10 living not having to leave the region to recruit, within 20 years?

I'd argue the popularity of the sport was as high or higher in earlier generations, especially at the high school level. But I'd also argue the talent level has gone up quite a bit in this region at a time when the popularity of the sport has remained steady, at best.

 

[GopherJake]

Getting the T-Wolves is one factor. Not sure how big of one.

 

[station19]

When was the time when MN high school players started concentrating on a single sport? Could that be part of the reason?

As an old timer, the years and decades are starting to run together.

 

[gopherbadgerman]

Agree the T-Wolves were huge in that area, made the NBA more relevant in the State for the first time in a long time. To me, not totally shocking that since the wolves began in 1989 or 1990 and the improved players began really sprouting up 3-5 years later.

 

[Moses87]

Global Warming(errrr...Climate change) - Don't laugh...There have many warmer winters (according to my Mom) in the past 20 years. More kids are able to play in their driveways. When I was a kid(70's and 80's) it seemed every winter was nothing but minus temps and ice from Nov thru March.

 

[BleedGopher]

I agree with Jake that the Wolves absolutely helped propel basketball in this state. It doesn't have an immediate impact, but I have to imagine that having KG here made the sport much more popular in the state, and a generation later we're benefiting.

I also think the explosion of AAU ball over the past decade has changed things and given our guys a greater national platform to play. We would have guys like Sam, Joel, El-Amin, etc that got the national/big time offers, but AAU ball has given the next group of guys a greater stage to play on, and likely a better opportunity for bigger offers.

It's an interesting question, and no doubt that we're producing a much deeper group of D1 players.

Go Gophers!!

 

[Schnauzer]

The T-wolves make sense to me as a contributor because if nothing else, the timing of their arrival compared to the bloom in Mn talent is right on. It gets a little cloudier for me with AAU because that situation isn't unique to MN, and this is certainly the case with focusing on one sport. That is happening everywhere. Unless of course if there were a higher percentage of multi-sport kids in MN prior to the 90's, compared to the US at large.

 

[From the Barn]

The internet. I wonder how many undiscovered players slipped to D2 in the 80s and 90s that were one youtube video away from a D1 offer.

 

[THE SCOUT!]

The emergence of Hard Core AAU programs both winter and summer leagues . More Division one programs around means more kids going D1.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

I think it's a combination of several factors:

1. Specialization has definitely played a role. When I was in HS, a 1-sport player was rare. Now, you see it more and more, even at smaller schools, and it's common at larger schools. I think this has a lot to do with athletes (and parents) focusing on one sport in hopes of getting a scholarship.

2. the AAU culture has clearly changed basketball. Back in the day, you might have a few kids playing in a summer league. Now, any decent kid (D3 level and above) is going to camps and clinics, playing in summer leagues, and playing for at least 1 AAU team.

3. I'm not sure how much impact the Wolves have had on HS BB. I think College BB also plays a role. The growth of the NCAA tournament as an event has focused more attention on College BB. Everybody watches the tournament. I know the NCAA title game with Bird and Magic was huge in bringing more attention to college hoops. People got to know the top college players and followed their careers into the pros. The Jordan Bulls also helped elevate pro BB as a "destination" sport.

4. The Internet has also played a big role in helping to publicize top players.

 

[GopherJake]

Another thought, with ZERO evidence.

Hockey is now a year-round sport and you have to start with costly hockey camps at age 2 to have any shot at playing at even the high school level, let alone beyond. I have watched my 3 nephews rise up through the ranks. One wasn't good enough, one totally burned out at about age 14 and the other made it to the state tournament and hopes to play beyond high school. The parents have lived and breathed hockey for about 20 years now.

This is quite a speedy and costly (money and time) rat race that many parents may not wish to enter. Basketball is a cheaper (money, at least) rat race.

 

[gopherMD]

I think it's a combination of several factors:

1. Specialization has definitely played a role. When I was in HS, a 1-sport player was rare. Now, you see it more and more, even at smaller schools, and it's common at larger schools. I think this has a lot to do with athletes (and parents) focusing on one sport in hopes of getting a scholarship.

2. the AAU culture has clearly changed basketball. Back in the day, you might have a few kids playing in a summer league. Now, any decent kid (D3 level and above) is going to camps and clinics, playing in summer leagues, and playing for at least 1 AAU team.

3. I'm not sure how much impact the Wolves have had on HS BB. I think College BB also plays a role. The growth of the NCAA tournament as an event has focused more attention on College BB. Everybody watches the tournament. I know the NCAA title game with Bird and Magic was huge in bringing more attention to college hoops. People got to know the top college players and followed their careers into the pros. The Jordan Bulls also helped elevate pro BB as a "destination" sport.

4. The Internet has also played a big role in helping to publicize top players.

I think you are spot on. The year-round playing does take its toll in terms of injuries and burnout. Some kids walk away and have little desire to play anymore.

 

[Bad Gopher]

The thing that coincided with the startup of the T-Wolves was the Gophers' runs to the Sweet Sixteen in 1989 and the final eight in 1990. For those who weren't around then or have forgotten, it can't be overstated how big a deal that was at the time, especially compared to how far down in the dumps the program had been the prior two seasons. The Gophs had made it to the Sweet Sixteen in 1982 and won the Big Ten title that year, but Clem's first team caught people's imagination in a way the 1982 team did not. I believe truly that those runs started something cultural in the state.

 

[GophersInIowa]

The T-wolves make sense to me as a contributor because if nothing else, the timing of their arrival compared to the bloom in Mn talent is right on. It gets a little cloudier for me with AAU because that situation isn't unique to MN, and this is certainly the case with focusing on one sport. That is happening everywhere. Unless of course if there were a higher percentage of multi-sport kids in MN prior to the 90's, compared to the US at large.

AAU has helped non-hotbed areas more than any in my opinion. It allows players from places that aren't heavily recruited to be able to play against great competition and show off their skills.

 

[gopherbadgerman]

The thing that coincided with the startup of the T-Wolves was the Gophers' runs to the Sweet Sixteen in 1989 and the final eight in 1990. For those who weren't around then or have forgotten, it can't be overstated how big a deal that was at the time, especially compared to how far down in the dumps the program had been the prior two seasons. The Gophs had made it to the Sweet Sixteen in 1982 and won the Big Ten title that year, but Clem's first team caught people's imagination in a way the 1982 team did not. I believe truly that those runs started something cultural in the state.

Agree with this point as well. I was 14-15 years old playing traveling basketball and it was huge when Clem's teams made it that far. The Willie Burton masks and all that stuff. Gopher BB was really a driver as well during this time as well.

 

[sunnyday2]

T-Wolves had nothin' to do with it.

Until about 1989-1990 kids could not play club ball on pain of losing their high school eligibility. The MSHSL got out of that business about then and the clubs starting sprouting up all over the place. Year-round ball in the clubs is reason #1, #2 and #3 for the improvement of MN HS BB.

 

[GuyFawkes]

I think as a whole, basketball has grown in popularity around the country, including in Minnesota, so a lot of kids are getting into the sport. The NBA has never been more popular, when you think of the biggest sports stars, what comes to mind is lebron, kobe, MJ. Because basketball is more of an individual sport compared to others. When it comes to advertising Basketball players make a lot more than any other sport in america. Kids grow up seeing that. You guys may say wolves being here or the gophers run made a difference, but kids today dont know about that run, they were too young, might have made the sport a little more popular and that got passed down, but don't think it makes the big difference. When I talk to my nephews about the history of basketball or anything they get bored and don't care, but talk to them about lebron or durant and you got their attention. NBA players are celebrities today, way more than back then, and that has impacted the game everywhere in the country.

 

[Schnauzer]

I think as a whole, basketball has grown in popularity around the country, including in Minnesota, so a lot of kids are getting into the sport. The NBA has never been more popular, when you think of the biggest sports stars, what comes to mind is lebron, kobe, MJ. Because basketball is more of an individual sport compared to others. When it comes to advertising Basketball players make a lot more than any other sport in america. Kids grow up seeing that. You guys may say wolves being here or the gophers run made a difference, but kids today dont know about that run, they were too young, might have made the sport a little more popular and that got passed down, but don't think it makes the big difference. When I talk to my nephews about the history of basketball or anything they get bored and don't care, but talk to them about lebron or durant and you got their attention. NBA players are celebrities today, way more than back then, and that has impacted the game everywhere in the country.

I appreciate what you are saying, but the question is why is this region producing more top players now compared to 20-30 years ago. My era had Magic Johnson, Bird, and Michael Jordan. Everyone wanted to be LIKE MIKE, but in the end Mr. MN basketball went to play D2 college. All the advertising and celebrities would impact all youth basketball players - MN, Georgia, Alaska, Arizona, etc. So I'm not sure if that is a help to understand why there has been an increase in top players here in MN. If that was the answer, the exposure would increase everywhere and the MN talent pool would increase locally but but remain in step with the rest of the country.

 

[Schnauzer]

T-Wolves had nothin' to do with it.

Until about 1989-1990 kids could not play club ball on pain of losing their high school eligibility. The MSHSL got out of that business about then and the clubs starting sprouting up all over the place. Year-round ball in the clubs is reason #1, #2 and #3 for the improvement of MN HS BB.

Was this situation unique to MN? Had it existed elsewhere through the 60's, 70's, and 80's, but not in MN? I'm not asking this rhetorically. I really don't know. If that is the case it really does make sense. I played on summer league teams but I remember there were rules that no more than 3 or 4 players from the same high school could play on these summer teams. I know that changed later and there was also the corresponding rise in AAU, but I had always assumed this was not unique to MN. If it was, I can see this being a big contributing factor to the rise in blue chip MN talent.

 

[tinyarch]

T-Wolves had nothin' to do with it.

Until about 1989-1990 kids could not play club ball on pain of losing their high school eligibility. The MSHSL got out of that business about then and the clubs starting sprouting up all over the place. Year-round ball in the clubs is reason #1, #2 and #3 for the improvement of MN HS BB.

Wholeheartedly agree. MSHSL has held back a number of things and when they finally get their head out of their rear-end you see improvement in the various sports programs.

There is another factor that I have no data to use as backup, but it seems that the Twin Cities had an influx of basketball talent come in from other urban centers like Chicago in the 1990s. A number of families saw the Twin Cities as a new beginning and a place where the government provided a social network of assistance. A culture of city "playground" basketball became more prominent and brought some significant talent with it. That culture coincided with less rigorous control by the MSHSL in regard to AAU ball and rules on coaching players.

I could be completely wrong in the conjecture as I have no data to back it up. It's just a theory.

 

[Sports_Realist]

Apart from the many reasons mentioned by others, at both the AAU and high school levels, you see the talent gravitating to particular teams and conferences. The best players aren't as spread out as they were 20 plus years ago. They play with and against each other far more frequently on all levels. That makes the top tier players better in the long run.

It ought to be noted, however, that as far as this state has come in producing basketball talent, the Twin Cities area still doesn't produce nearly the number of Division I players you'd expect for being ranked number 16 nationally in total population.

 

[sunnyday2]

Minnesota was significantly more restrictive than many other states both as to summer ball and the high school season as well. When I played we were limited to 18 games plus post-season. The state champion usually had 24 games total when they were done. In other states, I would see teams playing 30-40-50 games. Now teams that get deep into the post-season are playing 30+ games, so that's only about an extra 10 games but it's indicative of the larger trend.

As a result, there are far more D1, D2 and D3 players than there used to be. In the 1960s MN would sometimes have no more than 1 or 2 kids get D1 scholarships in a season. As has been noted as late as the 1980s Mr. Basketball went D2, though there may have been D1 players that year, too. I mean, maybe Mr. Basketball wasn't the best player. But still, it illustrates the point. Now there are probably 100 MN kids (boys) and an equal number of girls playing D1 ball (representing 4 years worth of kids, of course) versus, again, maybe 10 (1 or 2 each year) in the 1960s.