Walking the Fence - Where was Tubby's Leadership???

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Moses87

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While, I lay significant blame at the feet of the primary perpetrators(White, Mbakwe and Nolen) for the Gophers lost season, my patience with Tubby has reached its limit.

Why didn't he show some leadership and simply drop White back in December when word of a 2nd incident within a month leaked out?

I think Tubby sat on the fence and hid behind his Athletic Director because he was afraid of losing his players if he would have been perceived for taking too tough a stance. Meanwhile, Maturi announces an open-ended suspension and we never heard a word from Tubby's mouth on it. The best thing for ALL involved would have been, showing some leadership and making a decision...Either drop the player from the squad or announce that you plan to reinstate him. Leaving both the player and fans in limbo was gutless and wrong. Make a decision and stick with it! It's called Leadership, coach!

Now, White quits the team and Tubby says he wasn't expecting to play him anyway...really??? Why the hell didn't he announce that back in December??? What was the point in waiting??? The only answer I can think of is that Tubby was hoping all charges would be dropped and he could ease White back onto the team...

Tubby's gutless approach not only cost him the season and a prized recruit...it's probably lost him future recruits and any chance of succeeding in this job.

I'm afraid, its only going to get worse before it gets better.
 

I have no reason to believe that Tubby Wanted his star players benched. This is all on Maturi's shoulders. He was the one who pounced on mbakwe when the common thread with his case is that its mistaken identity, even looking a little bit into it shows theres really no credible evidence against him besides her word (and then she disappeared). Royce did put himself in a bad spot but showed with that 3.4 gpa that hes willing to work hard to keep his grades up, even when things arent going well for him. I think UMPD is also in part to blame since they dragged out a theft case 4 months only to bring 3 petty charges that any of us mightve incurred on any given weekend at the super block. just being in the dorms. all the while maturi wass just holding the players off the court.

Like mbakwe said in one of his (infamous?) facebook statuses...isnt it supposed to be innocent until proven guilty? i think thats how america should work and honestly, if maturi would follow those guidleines we'd have trevor all year and royce for a large portion. i highly doubt anyone would look down at umn for letting them play just with accusations/charges out there, as per my understanding, other schools allow it all the time. and if theyre found guilty of something then they get suspended.

what message does this send to potential recruits? so, uh, yea if youre within a general vicinity of any thefts or are in a dorm visiting friends and stopping by other rooms even without malicious intent..we're going to suspend you for the year. and i really understand why royce is leaving due to safety issues, i mean i would be worried about a cop coming up to me and taking me away just walking down the street if they had held me previously for 4 months to try to extort information i may not even have
 

Moses87 said:
The only answer I can think of is that Tubby was hoping all charges would be dropped and he could ease White back onto the team...
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Ya think?? Of course that was what he was thinking, as it was the thinking of damned near every Gopher fan out there. He wasn't just going to boot him off the team at the start of the season when this first happened. No way. He was hoping the kid would get his situation in order, so he was waiting for that to potentially happen. Royce let him down, but it appears that Tubby is still waiting, as he said on the radio last night that Royce's status is unchanged.
 

tjgopher said:
Ya think?? Of course that was what he was thinking, as it was the thinking of damned near every Gopher fan out there. He wasn't just going to boot him off the team at the start of the season when this first happened. No way. He was hoping the kid would get his situation in order, so he was waiting for that to potentially happen. Royce let him down, but it appears that Tubby is still waiting, as he said on the radio last night that Royce's status is unchanged.
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What bothers me and many others is that Tubby was either NOT communicating honestly with White about his possible return OR lying now to damage control when he says he didn't expect him back this season.

One of the key components of effective leadership is communication! Getting your decisions and policies out there, heard and understood...Tubby has failed both White and the entire Gopher nation.
 

Moses87 said:
What bothers me and many others is that Tubby was either NOT communicating honestly with White about his possible return OR lying now to damage control when he says he didn't expect him back this season.

One of the key components of effective leadership is communication! Getting your decisions and policies out there, heard and understood...Tubby has failed both White and the entire Gopher nation.
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I think there have been some communication breakdowns here. No question.

But, I think you misinterpreted what Tubby said, too. He said "I was never expecting Royce to play this year." I think that was more coach-speak about "not counting on having him", etc. Notice he didn't say "I suspended Royce for the whole year and I knew he wasn't going to be back no matter what." Clearly, Tubby was hoping he'd be back. Heck, he had Royce practicing with the team two weeks ago. But, as is the case with Trevor, the legal stuff has to be cleared up. Trevor has been patiently, quietly waiting and going about his business. Royce has not. I don't think the message has changed much - get your legal house in order and you can play. Until then, you can't. So, I think Tubby's comment was more along the lines of "we weren't counting on having him this year."

It appears Royce may have been hearing stuff he wanted to hear and wasn't ready to face the music that he wasn't going to be playing until the legal stuff was done. I think that message has been consistent, but it wasn't hitting home for Royce, so he has three times now gone public with this feigned "leave the program" talk. Maybe this time he means it. Maybe not.
 


I agree that those who say that you are innocent until proven guilty. MBWKE and White should have both been able to play. WHite should have been suspended for a set number of games after the MOA conviction. MABWKE should have been allowed to play until he was arrested or convicted. I hope Trent T talks to White and convinces him to stay. It is up to the AD to set the policy and create an environment for the success of the Athletic program. It is time for a different direction as far as AD goes. The money programs -bball and football--are in free fall. The way the Royce/Mabwke cases have been handled not only set a poor example for the accused and future recruits but potentially cost the Big10 and the U of M hundreds and thousands of dollars in lost revenue when they don't make the NCAA tournament.
 

You guys. Come on. This has been crystal clear from the beginning:

As soon as the legal issues are cleared up, then you will be cleared to play - assuming no "major" conviction.

It couldn't be more simple. Just because ol' Royce doesn't understand that - and I actually think he does - doesn't mean that hasn't been communicated properly to him. You all are speculating without knowing a thing.

Now, if you think Maturi/Smith owe the fans something, that is debatable. I don't, maybe you do. But that doesn't mean for a second it hasn't been communicated properly to the players.

Please consider how this may have gone had RW conducted himself the same as TM during the suspension........
 

GopherJake said:
You guys. Come on. This has been crystal clear from the beginning:

As soon as the legal issues are cleared up, then you will be cleared to play - assuming no "major" conviction.

It couldn't be more simple. Just because ol' Royce doesn't understand that - and I actually think he does - doesn't mean that hasn't been communicated properly to him. You all are speculating without knowing a thing.

Now, if you think Maturi/Smith owe the fans something, that is debatable. I don't, maybe you do. But that doesn't mean for a second it hasn't been communicated properly to the players.

Please consider how this may have gone had RW conducted himself the same as TM during the suspension........
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Well said.
 

GopherJake said:
You guys. Come on. This has been crystal clear from the beginning:

As soon as the legal issues are cleared up, then you will be cleared to play - assuming no "major" conviction.

It couldn't be more simple. Just because ol' Royce doesn't understand that - and I actually think he does - doesn't mean that hasn't been communicated properly to him. You all are speculating without knowing a thing.

Now, if you think Maturi/Smith owe the fans something, that is debatable. I don't, maybe you do. But that doesn't mean for a second it hasn't been communicated properly to the players.

Please consider how this may have gone had RW conducted himself the same as TM during the suspension........
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Great post. Thank you.
 



People need to relax.

I am confidently guessing that if there was any moral/legal way that Tubby could get his prized recruits on the basketball floor, it would have happened. Believe me. Some of you seem more willing to cross those moral bounds than others.

We assume there was a breakdown in communication because we are comparing things RW has said with things Tubby/Maturi have said, or not said.

Only problem with that argument is that it assumes Tubby/Maturi can and should be telling the public everything. That’s just not the case. I can guarantee you that there is legal counsel involved at this point.

We may never know what happened. Nor should we.

Case in point, I observed a situation with similar characteristics at my alma mater some years ago. A long-standing coach was let go because of something that coach did that wasn’t public knowledge. The coach runs to the media with this “I have no idea why I am being let go” story. Total lies. The coach knew that the school was not in the position to comment about anything for fear of a slander lawsuit. The school gave some generic statement – but the public wanted more. Rumors started to spread. Powerful boosters had the coach "let go" because they didn't like his style. It was all BS.

Because the coach was successful on the field of play, the dismissal generated lots of public outrage. Former players and parents were in two camps. You either loved coach, or you hated coach.

The school/admin had to take it up the a$$ for almost 6 months. The rumors got nasty.

What's the point? Where is the similarity?

Had the administration simply gone to the media and said, “Look, the coach did X”, everyone on both sides would have simply gone, “Oh,.... [long pause]... I get it”. It would have been a one day story.

But they couldn’t.

This isn’t a Law and Order episode people. We are never going to have all the facts. Nor do we have the “right” to know exactly what happened.

I am not asking you to take one side or the other. I am just asking you to take 5 steps back and ask yourself, “Huh, maybe we don’t have all of the facts here." And maybe there are good (or legal) reasons for that.

RW is in the position to stand up in front of the world and say anything he wants. YouTube videos, courthouse step speeches, twitter, etc, etc. He can say anything he wants about whatever he wants. The U of M is not in that same position.
 

I love how certain folks are blaming Tubby for Royce's inability to stay the course, like Tubby is some kind of bad guy here. And now that Royce is yet again threatening to leave because he didn't get to play and is therefore a "victim" is utterly laughable. Tubby doesn't need to explain anything to anybody about how this went down. He knows the young man, probably talked to him several times a week and knows what is really going on. As such, I'll take his judgments and decisions over anybody on here in a heartbeat.

In other words, Tubby doesn't need to explain himself to anybody on this situation. And frankly, neither does Maturi. Folks can get all upset and lose their patience with Tubby and Maturi here all they want. It's not going to change the fact that Royce White is the one who quit. He quit on his coach, he quit on his teammates and he quit on himself. All he needed to do from the start was keep his nose clean and he couldn't manage that, not by a long shot. Coach Smith doesn't owe anyone an explanation, least of all a bunch of internet fans who are doing nothing but clamoring to see Royce White in a Gopher jersey regardless. And now those same folks on this board think this whole mess, which was created by a self-centered rookie, means that Tubby and Maturi don't know how to communicate and that losing this kid is some kind of death knell to the program? Wow.

Let me know when sanity makes it's return.
 

GopherJake said:
You guys. Come on. This has been crystal clear from the beginning:

As soon as the legal issues are cleared up, then you will be cleared to play - assuming no "major" conviction.

It couldn't be more simple. Just because ol' Royce doesn't understand that - and I actually think he does - doesn't mean that hasn't been communicated properly to him. You all are speculating without knowing a thing.
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I disagree. I think that's what many people assume, but they are the very ones speculating. We already know there will be no "major" conviction in Royce's case. Ever think it's about a lot more than just the stupid trespassing charges?

Royce has made mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake. This summer, if you were to talk to a lot of people, they would say crap like, "oh, Royce has really cleaned up his act... getting kicked out of De La Salle was probably good.. he's done so well.. I think he finally wisened up". You're kidding yourself if you think that the only reason he is not playing is due to the UMPD and some attorneys. "He's got a lot of work to do" does not mean, "his case needs to be adjudicated, then we'll toss him out on the floor".

tjgopher got it right - the only reasonable thing to assume from Tubby's perspective was that White wouldn't play this year. You look at what you have and go from there, not at what you might have.

The perception by many outside of Minnesota has been and continues to be that Royce White is nothing but trouble. A childish kid with a me first attitude. It's hard to argue against that. I wish him the best, but "he's got a lot of work to do".
 

I have absolutely no sympathy for Royce White.

When someone has a long history of making making poor decisions, getting into trouble, and making life difficult for those around you, don't expect things to go smoothly for you in your attempt to regain your stature.

He cr@pped in his bed. Now he has to sleep in that ugly mess. With everything he's done over the past 3 years, it should be expected that a long, tough road be navigated before he earns back his credibility and warrants playing time at the 'U'. Habitually making poor decisions on and off the court is on him and so is everything that happens thereafter. Could it have been handled better by Maturi and Tubby? Possibly but that's a such a small footnote in the Royce story compared to what is expected of him. This is 99% Royce's fault for the current situation he finds himself in.
 



Many here feel that Royce's transgressions made him unworthy to play for the Gophers. If so he should have been booted out but Tubby did not do that. Many feel that Royce should have been given a defined suspension and then allowed to return but Tubby has not done that. It would seem that Tubby felt that with Royce's current mental makeup Tubby preferred not to coach him and in hopes that his mental makeup could be changed Tubby stated that Royce had "work to do" and suspended him from practice. Royce made good grades and Tubby allowed him to practice which indicates some of the "work" was being done.
Many here feel that all this is part of Tubby's mentoring. If this were true then I would have hoped part of the mentoring would be regular communication between Tubby and Royce. Yet we hear about weeks going by where Royce and Tubby do not talk. If this was Royce's fault then he was not doing his "work" and that to me would be cause for dismissal. If not Tubby should have found time to talk to the kid.
Meanwhile a media circus has been going on which coincides with a disappointing performance by the team. I sense a correlation.
Perhaps it is correct to heap tons of criticism on a talented 19 year old who is stumbling and bumbling into the adult world. But is this situation what we expected from a 30 year coaching veteran who has been through it all before and is being paid beaucoup millions of dollars to guide the team?
 

Roy Christensen said:
"Yet we hear about weeks going by where Royce and Tubby do not talk."
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Just curious. How do you know this is true?
 


Like in a YouTube video, or over pizza with him?

Sorry, that kind of proves my point doesn't it? We are only getting information from 1 side.
 

Gopher Warrior said:
I disagree. I think that's what many people assume, but they are the very ones speculating. We already know there will be no "major" conviction in Royce's case. Ever think it's about a lot more than just the stupid trespassing charges?
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Yes, I have thought that and still do. I agree with you.

However, I was dumbing down my argument to what is most certainly true as a way of convincing the apologists in this thread: RW is never going to see the floor until his legal issues are resolved. This has been crystal clear from the beginning for both him and TM. They are not resolved yet. Neither will play until they are. This was and is a fact. Indisputable.

Now comes the speculation part that I left out, so as to stick to the facts.

For one of them (<b>ROYCE WHITE</b>), it might be "longer" than that due to other, unpublicized factors, as you suggest and I agree - and is speculation. But the "longer" may have already occurred courtesy of campus police. So, with just a tad more patience and a closed mouth, RW may have been set to see the floor very, very soon.
 

Roy Christensen said:
Many here feel that Royce's transgressions made him unworthy to play for the Gophers. If so he should have been booted out but Tubby did not do that. Many feel that Royce should have been given a defined suspension and then allowed to return but Tubby has not done that. It would seem that Tubby felt that with Royce's current mental makeup Tubby preferred not to coach him and in hopes that his mental makeup could be changed Tubby stated that Royce had "work to do" and suspended him from practice. Royce made good grades and Tubby allowed him to practice which indicates some of the "work" was being done.
Many here feel that all this is part of Tubby's mentoring. If this were true then I would have hoped part of the mentoring would be regular communication between Tubby and Royce. Yet we hear about weeks going by where Royce and Tubby do not talk. If this was Royce's fault then he was not doing his "work" and that to me would be cause for dismissal. If not Tubby should have found time to talk to the kid.
Meanwhile a media circus has been going on which coincides with a disappointing performance by the team. I sense a correlation.
Perhaps it is correct to heap tons of criticism on a talented 19 year old who is stumbling and bumbling into the adult world. But is this situation what we expected from a 30 year coaching veteran who has been through it all before and is being paid beaucoup millions of dollars to guide the team?
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THANK YOU!

I expect alot more from a 30 year, so-called future hall of famer...Letting a prized recruit who has already threatened to quit and shown signs of major character flaws and mental instability flounder in an open-ended state of limbo was akin to throwing gasoline on the Waco compound. A more saavy coach would have communicated more clearly or made a decision and taken it out of the AD's hands. Maturi may be the boss but Tubby has the clout and he opted not to use it.
 

Setting a timeline for White's return is like setting a timeline for withdrawing from Iraq.
 

After he quit the first time, I remember hearing Tubby on the radio like a week after it happened saying that they hadn't talked yet.

BarnBoy said:
Like in a YouTube video, or over pizza with him?

Sorry, that kind of proves my point doesn't it? We are only getting information from 1 side.
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Royce is in the position because of his own doing. However, Tubby has been arrogant during this process IMO. His attitude has pretty much been, I'll tell you when you can play and without a timetable Royce has been frustrated. Some on here comparing Royce to Trevor seem to forget one thing. Trevor is awaiting trial for a felony. Royce has not commited a felony. Huge difference. I don't care what Tubby does, but he should make a decision one way or another and stick to it.
 

MRJ said:
I love how certain folks are blaming Tubby for Royce's inability to stay the course, like Tubby is some kind of bad guy here. And now that Royce is yet again threatening to leave because he didn't get to play and is therefore a "victim" is utterly laughable. Tubby doesn't need to explain anything to anybody about how this went down. He knows the young man, probably talked to him several times a week and knows what is really going on. As such, I'll take his judgments and decisions over anybody on here in a heartbeat.

In other words, Tubby doesn't need to explain himself to anybody on this situation. And frankly, neither does Maturi. Folks can get all upset and lose their patience with Tubby and Maturi here all they want. It's not going to change the fact that Royce White is the one who quit. He quit on his coach, he quit on his teammates and he quit on himself. All he needed to do from the start was keep his nose clean and he couldn't manage that, not by a long shot. Coach Smith doesn't owe anyone an explanation, least of all a bunch of internet fans who are doing nothing but clamoring to see Royce White in a Gopher jersey regardless. And now those same folks on this board think this whole mess, which was created by a self-centered rookie, means that Tubby and Maturi don't know how to communicate and that losing this kid is some kind of death knell to the program? Wow.

Let me know when sanity makes it's return.
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Another great post. Thank you. These negative people have forgotten that RW did the dorm thing during or after one of the home games if I remember correctly. He is a distraction and has to go.
 

Moses87 said:
THANK YOU!

I expect alot more from a 30 year, so-called future hall of famer...Letting a prized recruit who has already threatened to quit and shown signs of major character flaws and mental instability flounder in an open-ended state of limbo was akin to throwing gasoline on the Waco compound. A more saavy coach would have communicated more clearly or made a decision and taken it out of the AD's hands. Maturi may be the boss but Tubby has the clout and he opted not to use it.
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See, that's where I think the miscommunication is; you're thinking that Royce wasn't given a timeline. Over and over again, Tubby said the suspension continued to be in effect and Maturi said over and over again not to expect Royce to play for the rest of this year. So, apparently the timeline that was established was that Royce wouldn't play for this year and then his situation would be re-evaluated. But folks don't want to hear that and neither did Royce. Instead, Royce rebelled against that timeline and tried to force Tubby and Maturi's hand, and now is quitting because he didn't get his way.

And as an aside, if someone needs a short-term timeline in order to keep out of trouble off the court, that's a HUGE problem. Why not try and behave all the time? Is it that hard? If it is and a short-term timeline (which is what all of the Royce supporters are begging for in this case) is all they can go without causing a problem before they start crying about not being allowed to play, then that's an even bigger problem. Just stay out of trouble, do the things you're expected to do as a University of Minnesota basketball player and none of this is even an issue. Again, it's ALL on Royce.
 

MRJ said:
So, apparently the timeline that was established was that Royce wouldn't play for this year and then his situation would be re-evaluated..
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If this is the case then I would advocate that a public statement be made to that effect. That way Royce cannot help but understand what his situation has become and the media focus would be reduced. The team would lose a major distraction and focus would increase to the players who are actually playing. Why the circus?
 

Roy Christensen said:
After he quit the first time, I remember hearing Tubby on the radio like a week after it happened saying that they hadn't talked yet.
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My apologies.
 


Roy Christensen said:
If this is the case then I would advocate that a public statement be made to that effect. That way Royce cannot help but understand what his situation has become and the media focus would be reduced. The team would lose a major distraction and focus would increase to the players who are actually playing. Why the circus?
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How much more of a public statement do you need than for Maturi to say "don't expect Royce to play this year?" Is that public enough for you? The fact that Tubby allowed Royce to practice had nothing to do with not having a definite timeline imo. Rather, it was intended to allow Royce to interact with teammates and stay in some level of shape for coming years.

But then here come the media types, who talk about how Royce and Trevor are playing better than everybody else in practice and folks automatically assume "that's it, Royce must be coming back." Then, low and behold, Royce isn't coming back as Maturi and Tubby have indicated all along and now the assumption is that Royce wasn't given a suitable timeline. Therefore, the circus has been caused by a lack of understanding of the facts by folks on message boards, not by Tubby or Maturi not communicating with Royce appropriately. As for Royce's interpretation of events, you'll excuse me if I have my doubts about his version of things.
 

For the Anti-RW crowd on this post, you are going to get your wish! Then you can be rest assured that you will be watching the continued mediocrity of Gopher Athletics. You all and the Joe Matury's of the world can feel real good about your self serving insecure positions regarding student Athletes. These guys are basketball players, age 19 and are under scholarship contracts in academic good standing. These arrogant self serving standards set up by the AD (you all agree with) are there to protect the insults hurled at him during the Bruster and Mason era. They are not for the benefit of the player or the University. Look at the "NOISE" surrounding this deal already! Look at the MONEY the Big Ten loses when the Gophers are not in the NCAA tournament and future recruits look at this school with continued bewilderment! I am not interested in having these players date my sister, come over to dinner, etc. I want them to play hoops and fulfill their contractual agreement with the University. However, I don't really care about their personal life either. I don't care about their course load, their like ability, or the staus of their Character. That is for their mentors and coaches to deal with. I am secure enough in my own self to overlook some obvious youthful flaws and hope the best for these kids futures. All I really care about is the Gophers making the NCAA tournament and winning basketball games. People get accused all the time of things they didn't do. So, where is the conviction? Where is the arrest? What about a real AD standard that says, you are innocent until proven guilty? If a player is arrested or convicted of a felony, as the standard? How about letting convictions Vs accusations being the timetable Vs the police's trumped up charges, extended investigations, and petty jawalking accusations to be the rule of law? Even Tubby said on his radio show that he was frustrated with the speed of justice.

How about it FOLKS? You want to WIN some games and let these kids be human - learn from their mistakes and coaches/mentors or do you want to continue the path we are on with this current AD--being the Judge and Jury (love the Power don't you!)..and watching (BB and Football continue in a free-fall)....
I say it is time for change.......But wait--you all are part of the GOOD NEIGHBOR crowd that still pines for the Gopher Football team of the 30's and 1960 and John Wooden like basketball teams but don't have a clue how to get there.....It starts with an attitude that desires to win and not feel good about your prejudice driven by insecurity.
 

millions2spare said:
For the Anti-RW crowd on this post, you are going to get your wish! Then you can be rest assured that you will be watching the continued mediocrity of Gopher Athletics. You all and the Joe Matury's of the world can feel real good about your self serving insecure positions regarding student Athletes. These guys are basketball players, age 19 and are under scholarship contracts in academic good standing. These arrogant self serving standards set up by the AD (you all agree with) are there to protect the insults hurled at him during the Bruster and Mason era. They are not for the benefit of the player or the University. Look at the "NOISE" surrounding this deal already! Look at the MONEY the Big Ten loses when the Gophers are not in the NCAA tournament and future recruits look at this school with continued bewilderment! I am not interested in having these players date my sister, come over to dinner, etc. I want them to play hoops and fulfill their contractual agreement with the University. However, I don't really care about their personal life either. I don't care about their course load, their like ability, or the staus of their Character. That is for their mentors and coaches to deal with. I am secure enough in my own self to overlook some obvious youthful flaws and hope the best for these kids futures. All I really care about is the Gophers making the NCAA tournament and winning basketball games. People get accused all the time of things they didn't do. So, where is the conviction? Where is the arrest? What about a real AD standard that says, you are innocent until proven guilty? If a player is arrested or convicted of a felony, as the standard? How about letting convictions Vs accusations being the timetable Vs the police's trumped up charges, extended investigations, and petty jawalking accusations to be the rule of law? Even Tubby said on his radio show that he was frustrated with the speed of justice.

How about it FOLKS? You want to WIN some games and let these kids be human - learn from their mistakes and coaches/mentors or do you want to continue the path we are on with this current AD--being the Judge and Jury (love the Power don't you!)..and watching (BB and Football continue in a free-fall)....
I say it is time for change.......But wait--you all are part of the GOOD NEIGHBOR crowd that still pines for the Gopher Football team of the 30's and 1960 and John Wooden like basketball teams but don't have a clue how to get there.....It starts with an attitude that desires to win and not feel good about your prejudice driven by insecurity.
Click to expand...

Just stop it.
 

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