Two University of Minnesota doctors...eliminating school HS football

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Maroon92

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Not sure if this has been discussed but these doctors are recommending ending school sanctioned football and replace it with nonschool leagues that the teams are more evenly matched in terms of size as well as the pressures of kids playing while injured b/c of school spirit etc.




Nov. 21-- Two University of Minnesota doctors are recommending that the nation's schools eliminate football, reducing the pressure on children to engage in a sport riddled with concussions.

Dr. Steven Miles said an outright ban on youth football would be unrealistic. But he is among the first to recommend removing football from schools, where the pressure of school spirit or being the only kid big enough to play nose guard can rope players into a sport in which 5 percent to 20 percent of players suffer concussions each season.

"If you went to nonschool leagues, those types of coercive pressures would end," he said.

Miles, a bioethics professor, and Dr. Shailendra Prasad reviewed studies on football-related concussions for their statement, which is online and will appear in the American Journal of Bioethics.

They disagreed with the American Academy of Pediatrics' recent call to preserve tackle football while increasing flag football and noncontact alternatives. They called the group "optimistically speculative" in its belief that neck strengthening exercises and other approaches can reduce concussions without major changes to the game.

"For the Academy of Pediatrics to place the health interests of kids against the design of a sport just seemed quite amazing," Miles said.

Concussion rates are also high in hockey, but the U doctors argued that football merits action because it has so many more players.

Miles said schools fail to warn athletes of concussion risks with consent forms that read like "negligence waivers for a roller coaster," and justify participation with statements such as "everything in life has risks."

Miles, who has studied war crimes and torture, is surprised he hasn't received more criticism, considering how Friday night varsity games are embedded in American culture.

"This one is turning out to be the most widely accepted paper, in terms of the comments I'm getting back, that I've ever written," he said. "Now that doesn't mean it will go anywhere, but I think people are looking for a solution to the concussion/school football player issue that does not involve something as difficult as banning the sport."
 

Pretty ignorant opinion from a non-medical doctor. Frankly a bioethicist is one step removed from a philosopher or poet. Deep thinking on other people's problems with very little to offer in the way of meaningful real world solutions. Kids like to play football, removing "pressures to play" isn't going to solve concussions in the game. This is just a way to undercut the sport that so many bird brains like Mr. Miles hate. I'm sure it will get front page billing in the media though.
 

Maroon92 said:
Miles, who has studied war crimes and torture, is surprised he hasn't received more criticism, considering how Friday night varsity games are embedded in American culture.
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Maybe because he isn't important or respected enough that anyone cares about his opinion?
 

Maroon92 said:
Not sure if this has been discussed but these doctors are recommending ending school sanctioned football and replace it with nonschool leagues that the teams are more evenly matched in terms of size as well as the pressures of kids playing while injured b/c of school spirit etc.




Nov. 21-- Two University of Minnesota doctors are recommending that the nation's schools eliminate football, reducing the pressure on children to engage in a sport riddled with concussions.

Dr. Steven Miles said an outright ban on youth football would be unrealistic. But he is among the first to recommend removing football from schools, where the pressure of school spirit or being the only kid big enough to play nose guard can rope players into a sport in which 5 percent to 20 percent of players suffer concussions each season.

"If you went to nonschool leagues, those types of coercive pressures would end," he said.

Miles, a bioethics professor, and Dr. Shailendra Prasad reviewed studies on football-related concussions for their statement, which is online and will appear in the American Journal of Bioethics.

They disagreed with the American Academy of Pediatrics' recent call to preserve tackle football while increasing flag football and noncontact alternatives. They called the group "optimistically speculative" in its belief that neck strengthening exercises and other approaches can reduce concussions without major changes to the game.

"For the Academy of Pediatrics to place the health interests of kids against the design of a sport just seemed quite amazing," Miles said.

Concussion rates are also high in hockey, but the U doctors argued that football merits action because it has so many more players.

Miles said schools fail to warn athletes of concussion risks with consent forms that read like "negligence waivers for a roller coaster," and justify participation with statements such as "everything in life has risks."

Miles, who has studied war crimes and torture, is surprised he hasn't received more criticism, considering how Friday night varsity games are embedded in American culture.

"This one is turning out to be the most widely accepted paper, in terms of the comments I'm getting back, that I've ever written," he said. "Now that doesn't mean it will go anywhere, but I think people are looking for a solution to the concussion/school football player issue that does not involve something as difficult as banning the sport."
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They should be beat until they are fully concussed.
 

Obviously a flawed study, since no mention of the impact of global warming/climate change has had on concussions.
 



The worst recommendations, including those on "end of life" advice, tend to come from academic, non-practicing physicians. Football has been played for 135 years in the U.S. - mostly by amateurs, and I don't recall any significant outbreaks of concussion problems. The pro level is something else because of the size, speed and strength of players. Concussions are also often reported in soccer, down to the grade school level. The new college protocols make sense, but banning football does not.
 

Ole said:
Pretty ignorant opinion from a non-medical doctor. Frankly a bioethicist is one step removed from a philosopher or poet. Deep thinking on other people's problems with very little to offer in the way of meaningful real world solutions. Kids like to play football, removing "pressures to play" isn't going to solve concussions in the game. This is just a way to undercut the sport that so many bird brains like Mr. Miles hate. I'm sure it will get front page billing in the media though.
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Virtually everything in this paragraph is wrong.
 

Great Plains Gopher said:
The worst recommendations, including those on "end of life" advice, tend to come from academic, non-practicing physicians. Football has been played for 135 years in the U.S. - mostly by amateurs, and I don't recall any significant outbreaks of concussion problems. The pro level is something else because of the size, speed and strength of players. Concussions are also often reported in soccer, down to the grade school level. The new college protocols make sense, but banning football does not.
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Academic physicians are all practicing physicians. It's amazing the number of people who spout off here that have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.
 



No one should drive a vehicle until they are over 26 years of age because there is a clear disproportionate amount of traffic accidents involving people under 26 years of age. IT IS SIMPLY UNCONSCIONABLE TO ALLOW SUCH ACTIVITY TO CONTINUE!!

and all trampolines and fireworks banned too!!!
 

dpodoll68 said:
Academic physicians are all practicing physicians. It's amazing the number of people who spout off here that have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.
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Why is that amazing? I'd say that is fairly typical of 95% of internet forums these days.
 

Make all kinds of crap up if you want, but look at our rate of injury this year in football. Any occupation or job in America that involved a similar injury rate would see holy hell raised. OSHA would be under tremendous pressure to shut the job site down.

I'm just glad that enough parents don't care enough so that I can still have my need for live violence sated. Hell, it's not my kids or grandkids being injured so what do I care? That Mike Ditka recently said he wouldn't want his grandchildren to play football says a lot.
 

I thought it was interesting that the doctors wanted to remove football from the High School structure, and move it to a club setting. In my experience with J-O volleyball or AAU Basketball, that would mean fewer safeguards. A HS coach is most often a teacher, and answerable to the administration and school board. A club coach is answerable to whom? I don't know.

HS coaches are also required to go through training on injury care and prevention, and concussion protocols.

I think taking FB out of the HS and moving it to a club sport would potentially lead to more injuries and less protection for the athletes.
 



short ornery norwegian said:
I thought it was interesting that the doctors wanted to remove football from the High School structure, and move it to a club setting. In my experience with J-O volleyball or AAU Basketball, that would mean fewer safeguards. A HS coach is most often a teacher, and answerable to the administration and school board. A club coach is answerable to whom? I don't know.

HS coaches are also required to go through training on injury care and prevention, and concussion protocols.

I think taking FB out of the HS and moving it to a club sport would potentially lead to more injuries and less protection for the athletes.
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Yep, that's a disaster waiting to happen which would only further hurt the sport and lead to it's demise which is the goal here. These "doctors" want the game gone.
As the real medical research builds on this subject I think we'll see protocols and treatment options that both protect the game and the players. The only research subjects they have currently to study the long term effects on are pre "concussion era" players, mostly from the NFL.

The fact that cofactors are never mentioned is also a problem IMO since there's a difference in getting a concussion and treating it properly with rest and getting one, playing through it, going out and drinking heavily, then juicing with steroids before practice the next day.

It will all sort itself out and probably make our understanding of brain injuries better in the process. It's people like these numbskulls that demonize the sport and jump to conclusions for shock value's sake that make this discussion an emotional and confusing one.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I thought it was interesting that the doctors wanted to remove football from the High School structure, and move it to a club setting. In my experience with J-O volleyball or AAU Basketball, that would mean fewer safeguards. A HS coach is most often a teacher, and answerable to the administration and school board. A club coach is answerable to whom? I don't know.

HS coaches are also required to go through training on injury care and prevention, and concussion protocols.

I think taking FB out of the HS and moving it to a club sport would potentially lead to more injuries and less protection for the athletes.
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I somewhat agree. If you look at other sports, the traveling hockey leagues are out of control serious about performance and could actually be more of a detriment to player health than high school. Although, I'm pretty sure to coach at those levels you need to have some certification/training as well.
 

Ole said:
Pretty ignorant opinion from a non-medical doctor. Frankly a bioethicist is one step removed from a philosopher or poet. Deep thinking on other people's problems with very little to offer in the way of meaningful real world solutions. Kids like to play football, removing "pressures to play" isn't going to solve concussions in the game. This is just a way to undercut the sport that so many bird brains like Mr. Miles hate. I'm sure it will get front page billing in the media though.
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I can guess that it is hard to post on a message board while you are deeply inhaling your collection of game-worn jockstraps.

He is a medical doctor, and he is offering a "meaningful real world solution" that doesn't even involve eliminating youth football. The tone of your post makes it sound like you really resent intellectualism because they're "not on your side". If that's the case I feel bad for you.

Miles sounds like a real ***hole, doesn't he.

Miles is a professor of medicine and bioethics. He has served as the chief medical officer for a Cambodian refugee camp and worked on AIDS prevention in Sudan and on tsunami relief in Indonesia with the American Refugee Committee. He serves on the board of the Center for Victims of Torture and is the recipient of the Distinguished Service Award of the American Society of Bioethics and Humanities. He is the Moderator for Bioethics International, a group of 600 bioethics faculty from 55 countries.
 

Ole said:
Yep, that's a disaster waiting to happen which would only further hurt the sport and lead to it's demise which is the goal here. These "doctors" want the game gone.
As the real medical research builds on this subject I think we'll see protocols and treatment options that both protect the game and the players. The only research subjects they have currently to study the long term effects on are pre "concussion era" players, mostly from the NFL.

The fact that cofactors are never mentioned is also a problem IMO since there's a difference in getting a concussion and treating it properly with rest and getting one, playing through it, going out and drinking heavily, then juicing with steroids before practice the next day.

It will all sort itself out and probably make our understanding of brain injuries better in the process. It's people like these numbskulls that demonize the sport and jump to conclusions for shock value's sake that make this discussion an emotional and confusing one.
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Why do you have the word doctors in quotation marks? Seriously, please stop ranting about subjects in which you are clearly ill-informed.
 

I didn't read his bio. It appears he IS a medical doctor. Good then he has some sway to his argument. He was presented in the article as a bioethics professor which means he certainly holds a PHD, but wasn't presented as an MD PHd which matters IMO. Please send me a peer reviewed scientific paper that brings enough solid data to the table that makes their opinion here a better one than the American Academy of Pediatrics. The research is simply incomplete at this point.

EDIT: Honestly i don't want to get into this argument again. It's axe week and I clearly misinterpreted the article based on some pretty poor writing. I have my opinion on the research, others have theirs. Concussions are bad. I believe research into the brain will help humanity at the end of all this. /RANT
 

Ole said:
He was presented in the article as a bioethics professor which means he certainly holds a PHD
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No, he doesn't. He's an MD, period. Please stop.

Ole said:
Please send me a peer reviewed scientific paper that brings enough solid data to the table that makes their opinion here a better one than the American Academy of Pediatrics. The research is simply incomplete at this point.
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You are free to hold a contradictory opinion, but please don't pretend that it holds equal weight. He's a medical expert with decades of work in the field, and you're a guy at a keyboard. Again, please stop.

(I happen to agree with you and also hold the opinion that the notion of legislating football out of existence is ridiculous, but your posts on this thread are embarrassing. STOP.)
 

I think we just agreed to stop. That's got to be a gopherhole record.
 

So now you're interested in the bird-brained, non-real-world peer-reviewed scientific journals?

Ten bucks says that 1- you didn't read half a sentence of AAP's publication but are touting it because the original post says that it preserves youth tackle football, and 2- you have absolutely no idea whether or not the research is incomplete.
 

Swimming should be banned do to the significant number of people who drown each year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

It is naive to think football could not be eliminated from public school sports. I think some schools will use the findings from this and other reports to justify the elimination of football. In addition to the inherent dangers of playing football, it is very costly to fund.

Although funding may be the real reason for eliminating football, the decision makers who cut it will do so in the name of safety and welfare of students. It is one thing to go before the school board and defend funding football in the name of offering kids an opportunity. However, it is a much more difficult thing to argue keeping a dangerous activity.

Note that I'm not making a case that football is or is not dangerous. I'm trying to show how the case could easily be made to the eliminate it. I suspect that once a few schools take the heat and eliminate football in the name of student welfare, many more will likely follow suit.

If you don't think the dangers of concussions and other negative aspects of football are real in the minds of many people, just check out NBC nightly news. They have a story tonight about another vicious hit resulting in a concussion and a player being left on the field to play. You can try and dismiss this as primarily an NFL issue but a lot of people, right or wrong, will use it as an example why public schools need to ban football.
 

I also agree that football leavig schools in the future is not out of the question. There are several other sports which have strong leagues/clubs outside of the schools including hockey, volleyball, gymnastics, soccer etc. The advantage in Minnesota would be to get out under the thumb of the MSHSL and get longer seasons (even if means more weight training or 7 on 7 work). Club volleyball season is twice as long the HS season and junior hockey plays many more games than HS but I don't hear that junior players are more likely to get injured.
 

Ski U Master said:
I somewhat agree. If you look at other sports, the traveling hockey leagues are out of control serious about performance and could actually be more of a detriment to player health than high school. Although, I'm pretty sure to coach at those levels you need to have some certification/training as well.
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You do for youth hockey and you don't for high school. A high school coach doesn't even have to wear a helmet on the ice. It's a moot point though because most high school coaches, even the ex NHL guys spend time at the youth level first.
 

MNGoldenGophers1 said:
It is naive to think football could not be eliminated from public school sports. I think some schools will use the findings from this and other reports to justify the elimination of football. In addition to the inherent dangers of playing football, it is very costly to fund.

Although funding may be the real reason for eliminating football, the decision makers who cut it will do so in the name of safety and welfare of students. It is one thing to go before the school board and defend funding football in the name of offering kids an opportunity. However, it is a much more difficult thing to argue keeping a dangerous activity.

Note that I'm not making a case that football is or is not dangerous. I'm trying to show how the case could easily be made to the eliminate it. I suspect that once a few schools take the heat and eliminate football in the name of student welfare, many more will likely follow suit.

If you don't think the dangers of concussions and other negative aspects of football are real in the minds of many people, just check out NBC nightly news. They have a story tonight about another vicious hit resulting in a concussion and a player being left on the field to play. You can try and dismiss this as primarily an NFL issue but a lot of people, right or wrong, will use it as an example why public schools need to ban football.
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Ah, the scope of Gopher Hole. Reading the post before your (#22) the reaction is, "What an idiot," and then I read yours and think, "Well, there are people here who think things through and try to have reasonable input."
 


VACTERL said:
His specialty is geriatrics. Hashtag snooze emoji...

If he wanted to ban contact sports in those 60+ then maybe his opinion would matter.

(just joking DPO)
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Have you seen all the research about STDs running rampant in nursing homes? Trust me, there's a lot of "contact sports" happening in the 60+ population.:)
 

Maroon92 said:
I also agree that football leavig schools in the future is not out of the question. There are several other sports which have strong leagues/clubs outside of the schools including hockey, volleyball, gymnastics, soccer etc. The advantage in Minnesota would be to get out under the thumb of the MSHSL and get longer seasons (even if means more weight training or 7 on 7 work). Club volleyball season is twice as long the HS season and junior hockey plays many more games than HS but I don't hear that junior players are more likely to get injured.
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Longer seasons is the reason that Dr. James Andrews says youth are seeing higher levels of injury. They are not resting enough. It comes down to education vs sports. Schools try to blend to two. If sports specific organizations can balance and include the educational component, then pulling the sports away from the schools might happen.
 


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