Turing the Corner

[EE_Gopher]

Okay, I don't want to start a Mason fight. But for those of you who were paying attention back in 98 - 99, were there any signs leading into the 99 season that the Gophers had turned the corner from the Wacker era? It would be interested to look at with respect to this team.

 

[wait!what?]

Well, if the Maple Leafs are involved in the cup chase then maybe....;

 

[corcoran1]

Okay, I don't want to start a Mason fight. But for those of you who were paying attention back in 98 - 99, were there any signs leading into the 99 season that the Gophers had turned the corner from the Wacker era? It would be interested to look at with respect to this team.

I may be incorrect, but I thought we beat MSU at home in '98, and MSU was a decent physical team.
I thought that was a sign that some issues had been fixed on the o-line at least.

 

[metrolax]

The 1998 team came within a couple missed extra points of going 6-5 and to a bowl game. Wacker's best teams finished no better than 4-7,
so just being in the conversation of a bowl game meant something. In 1999 it was obvious. The school hadn't had a season like that since 1967-68.
That team was very strong on defense, which was never the case during the Wacker years. The interesting thing about that is Gordie Shaw coached
the D-line then. Then, when he moved to coach the O-Line, they were strong there and started to slip on the D-line. Say what you want about him, but he was
an excellent coach here.

 

[MNVCGUY]

There was definite reason for optimism in 1999. Cockerham, Hamner, and Johnson were some nice weapons on offense. Hamilton was a rock in the middle of the O-Line and on defense there was a lot of talent in TC, Schlecht, Riley, Greg White, Middlebrooks and some solid LB's. We had the makings of a pretty strong team.

The team definitely looked like it was heading in the right direction after looking so bad during the Wacker years.

 

[denguegopher]

I may be incorrect, but I thought we beat MSU at home in '98, and MSU was a decent physical team.
I thought that was a sign that some issues had been fixed on the o-line at least.

Not sure if it was '98 but the Gophers were headed in the right direction when they beat MSU. That is maybe the only game where I said to myself, "this thing is lost," and we came back and won. The successful on-sides kick, Billy Cockerham making a couple of long runs... I foresaw great things for the Gopher program with that win. We never got to where I hoped that we would however.

 

[husker70]

When Mason was hired he brought with him David Gibbs. The Minnesota team was woeful on defense, last in the Big 10 in Points Allowed, Yardage. By 1999 they we in the Top 10 in the Nation in those same categories. Defense was the change. When you look back you see strength up the middle Russ and Schlect, Hoffman, Carter. How close are we to that? Haggeman and Legania, Lynn (note Lynn is 6'3 and 231 and Hoffman was 6'3 and 241)

 

[MNVCGUY]

When Mason was hired he brought with him David Gibbs. The Minnesota team was woeful on defense, last in the Big 10 in Points Allowed, Yardage. By 1999 they we in the Top 10 in the Nation in those same categories. Defense was the change. When you look back you see strength up the middle Russ and Schlect, Hoffman, Carter. How close are we to that? Haggeman and Legania, Lynn (note Lynn is 6'3 and 231 and Hoffman was 6'3 and 241)

Strength up the middle was key but don't underestimate the importance of the Riley/Schlect combo. Those two were next to unstopable much of that season and would routinely blow up plays by getting pressure on the QB.

 

[gophmeister]

Yes. Even in 1997 there were signs of improvement. If instant replay had been around then we would have won the Penn St game. Just the fact that we went down to the wire with the #1 team in the nation at the time made me a believer. The defense was doing the impossible and Lamanzer Williams was named our first all american since like the 70s. In 1998 we beat Nick Saban led Michigan St for the first time since the 70s. Also, we almost beat Tom Brady and Michigan that year. Michigan fumbled the ball a whole bunch of times and we recovered the ball in the end zone to put us up 10-7. Michigan tied it up in the third and got a saftey in the fourth to go up by 2. With like 8 minutes left Brady fumbled the ball and a mad scramble occurred between him and I think Asteinn Osei for the ball at mid field. Had Astein been able to pick it up and score we probably would have won, because Michigan could do nothing right that day on offense. Their defense totally shut us down. We also destroyed Iowa 49-7 for Fry's last game. The Iowa fans were livid that we would do that to him. In a lot of ways, 1998 was a lot like 2012. Had Mase not hired Elliot Uzelac as OC he might have had a better offense sooner and managed to win some of those early close games. Could have won the Axe in 1997 too had we been able to hold on in the 4th. The hallmark of the Wacker era was monumentally poor defense. Just bad. I remember 1995 was supposed to be the year. They were promoting Chris Darkins for the Heisman even. We started out 3-1 with a respectable loss to McNabb led Syracuse and a close win over Purdue. Then Northwestern came to town and dismantled us in front of a pretty large homecoming crowd. The cardiac cats went on to the rose bowl that year while we just got worse and worse as the weeks went by. I think we lost to Michigan, Iowa, Illinois and someone else by a margin of 40 points each game. It was ugly. Wacker got a contract "extension" that basically said win or else after that season. When Mase arrived the team was totally demoralized, but Wacky left him a handful of good players like Tyrone Carter and Lamanzer Williams that DC was able to fashion a defense around. The turnaround wasn't quick, but you saw progress the first year. Most fans had resigned themselves to us being complete bottom feeders. Mase really raised the bar.

Note: I sat on the visitors side close to the sideline near mid field so I had a really good view of the fumble and scramble for the ball. I was really amazed by Brady's tenacity in fighting of a much larger fellow for the ball. It's one of those games I vivid images of in my head.

 

[GopherHomer]

Reading these stories have really gotten me nostalgic. Also, I hate the fact that within the Gopher community people have really had to pick one of two sides: Pro or Anti Mason. I am forever ever grateful for what Mason did with our program...it's when I really became a fan. That being said, I am still completely in favor of him being fired. I feel he had peaked, and if Maturi would have made a good hire, we could have taken another step. Mason was great for the Gophers and Brewster was horrible...those are facts, but I have faith that Kill will end up taking us to new heights.

 

[MNVCGUY]

With like 8 minutes left Brady fumbled the ball and a mad scramble occurred between him and I think Asteinn Osei for the ball at mid field. Had Astein been able to pick it up and score we probably would have won, because Michigan could do nothing right that day on offense. QUOTE]

I could be wrong but I think it was Curtese Poole who couldn't grab/fall on the fumble that could have iced that game. Otherwise your memory is spot on, painful as it is to think about how close the team came in so many games under Mason. There were the epic collapses as well but if he would have kept the fire and drive that he had prior to the OSU coaching debacle he could have done wonderful things here.

 

[metrolax]

As time goes by, I think the whole pro-Mason vs anti-Mason thing will die out, and the sooner the better.
That's like saying you were pro-Stoll or anti-Stoll, pro-Gutey or anti-Gutey. We will and should start to look
at the positive contributions of the Mason years and the good memories we have of them. As time goes by
I think Mason's star will rise in the minds of most Gopher fans.

 

[Tater]

Reading these stories have really gotten me nostalgic. Also, I hate the fact that within the Gopher community people have really had to pick one of two sides: Pro or Anti Mason. I am forever ever grateful for what Mason did with our program...it's when I really became a fan. That being said, I am still completely in favor of him being fired. I feel he had peaked, and if Maturi would have made a good hire, we could have taken another step. Mason was great for the Gophers and Brewster was horrible...those are facts, but I have faith that Kill will end up taking us to new heights.

+1. I actually like Mason but did remember thinking Mason had though the program had. peaked. The firing was fine (the TX Tech losses was embarrassing) but as with any firing it is linked to the next hiring, which was a sh!tshow.

 

[Killjoy]

As time goes by, I think the whole pro-Mason vs anti-Mason thing will die out, and the sooner the better.

It will never happen. It is the longest running soap opera ever. Without it what would we ever talk about during these dead periods? But oh god I wish you were right.

 

[gophmeister]

I could be wrong but I think it was Curtese Poole who couldn't grab/fall on the fumble that could have iced that game. Otherwise your memory is spot on, painful as it is to think about how close the team came in so many games under Mason. There were the epic collapses as well but if he would have kept the fire and drive that he had prior to the OSU coaching debacle he could have done wonderful things here.

That's who it was.

I look back at the Mason era with mixed emotions because there were great moments and he definitely had success. I appreciate every win and even some of the losses since we were terrible under Wacker. What sours the Mason legacy for me is just sort of his attitude that he was too good for Minnesota and that toward the end he didn't seem to care as much.

 

[nsmike]

The Pro/Anti Mason argument will die out if Kill or a subsequent coach gets the program to the point that 8 to 10 wins are expected. When we reach that level no one will be reminiscing about the 'Fringe Bowl Team' days.

 

[Sparlimb]

What year did we go down to Baylor and spank them? I remember sitting up while watching that game and thinking maybe we had something. We weren't the same awful team that couldn't win on the road that we had been for the previous forever. I do remember the Penn St. games as well. We did get to a point where we were often supposed to lose but we could win on any given week. Under Wacker, we normally lost by 40 and on the good weeks lost by 20.

Looked it up, the Baylor stuff wasn't until Sep 16, 2000:

Game Story

WACO, Texas (Ticker) -- Freshman Thomas Tapeh rushed for a
career-high 183 yards on 32 carries as Minnesota rolled to a
34-9 rout of Baylor in the first meeting between the schools.

Tapeh was seemingly unstoppable, helping the Golden Gophers
(2-1) gain a 289-56 advantage in rushing yards. He caught a
27-yard touchdown pass from Asad Abdul-Khaliq early in the
second half and added a one-yard scoring run in the fourth
quarter for a 27-3 bulge.

Abdul-Khaliq also enjoyed a stellar performance, completing
14-of-20 passes for 172 yards and two touchdowns. He is
averaging 185.3 yards passing this season.

Tellis Redmon caught a 22-yard TD pass from Abdul-Khaliq in the
first half and Dan Nystrom booted two field goals, including a
44-yarder on the first half's final play.

Minnesota, which owned a 461-179 advantage in total offense,
opens its Big Ten Conference schedule next week at Purdue.

Baylor (1-1) suffered a disappointing opening to its three-game
homestand and was denied its' first 2-0 start since 1996.

Michael Odum completed just 9-of-26 passes for 62 yards and
Andra Fuller had three receptions for 26 yards for the Bears.

Baylor hosts South Florida next week.

 

[Sumtimegophs]

And here I thought that this tread was about the Turing Test on artificial intelligence. What a disappointment. No intelligence here

 

[imthewalrus]

Not sure if it was '98 but the Gophers were headed in the right direction when they beat MSU. That is maybe the only game where I said to myself, "this thing is lost," and we came back and won. The successful on-sides kick, Billy Cockerham making a couple of long runs... I foresaw great things for the Gopher program with that win. We never got to where I hoped that we would however.

I think you are correct about that "first glimpse of potential..." denguegopher. Although, I think the "one that got away back in State College, PA in 1997 showed that some things were headed in the right direction!

I am undoubtedly not too tough a sell when it comes to being pleased with come-from-behind "program changing moments..." I recall several come from behind wins...Certainly, that 1999 win at State College, PA had to fit that category of reaching deeply to pull it out. A couple of wins against Iowa had to fit that category for my limited "great win" scale of ranking these things. One in 1999 at Iowa City with that wheel-route pass that covered about 80 yards and the first Gopher lead of the day well into the fourth quarter...followed by Hoffman's batting a pass into the end zone down on virtually the last play of the game with the Hawkeyes on the two and throwing into the end zone for the win. Another in the dome against Iowa a few years later with Ron Johnson putting on a clinic and then a long-bomb td pass late in the 4th quarter for the win. There was that win against Michigan in Ann Arbor in 2005. The Gophers also answered the bell in Columbus in 2000 when they fended off the Buckeyes a time or two in that game. There was that win against Oregon when Lloyd kicked that field goal at the end of the game. There was the win against wisky when Lloyd also hit a game ending field goal. There was the win against Purdue when Cupito ran that option for the 2 point conversion. I recall being at East Lansing when the Gophers were down early and then took over the game in 2006. There was another win over Iowa in the dome in 2006 that was very dramatic. There was a win in the dome against Northwestern when the Gophers pulled an on-side kick to start the 2nd half and late in the game when Thomas Tepeh was hit by virtually every Northwestern defender at least once as he stayed on his feet and kept driving for the key first down that most likely saved that game. So, it would appear that 2013 and 2014 will be big years for Coach Kill and his staff to prove that they can orchestrate some good drama in the "pulling the game out of the dumpster in the last few minutes" category of winning the fans hearts, minds and cash contributions. The third season this fall and next year's fourth season will be critical for Coach Kill's survival here at Minnesota, I would assume based upon past media and fan reactions to coaches records. I fear without a progression in the B1G win category that the media, the corporate sponsorship base and the fan base will wane, wither and regress to the lack of support level that has been the norm here at Minnesota during the past forty five to fifty years. And...based upon past performance, there is about an 85% to 90% chance that the administration will draw blanks on their handling of the situation and will turn opportunity into a comedy of errors with the entire situation. I suppose it all boils down to a "show me..." kind of situation. And, for many fans it is a "show me early...and show me often..." kind of situation. For the administration it is a "...blind leap of faith..." action that has not been properly prepared, researched or followed through upon stab-in-the dark type of action. Personally, I don't know how realistic that method has been over the decades. But, I am certain it is what will most likely happen again. My view on human nature with media types and fan bases and administrators here at the U of M tells me that once again, the coach will be sacrificed to appease the calls for vengeance from the fans and the media and the administration will "leap before they look..." with the entire process.

If your primary highlight for the potential of the future of Mason's tenure was the MSU come from behind win in 1998(and that was a very good instance to identify as the "first" clue), denguegopher, what has Coach Kill's signature piece of work been for you during his first two seasons at the helm of the Gophers? What will you need to see in his third season to instill confidence and hope for coming seasons? Have you seen a glimpse of that MSU-1998 type of moment yet? I think you are a very astute observer of an incident or situation that bodes well for the future, based upon your takes that I have read in the past...) Please share any situations that may instill a bit of hope here on GOPHERHOLE...

; 0 )

 

[littlebigboy]

Who Cares unless you are a history nut. THIS IS THE JERRY KILL ERA, GET ON THE WAGON!!!

 

[imthewalrus]

Who Cares unless you are a history nut. THIS IS THE JERRY KILL ERA, GET ON THE WAGON!!!

If you don't know the history, you are doomed to repeat the history. Now, if that history has been a good history, that's not all bad. However, if that history has not led to better things...that is not good, at all.

Believe me, I am hoping for very good things for the Jerry Kill Era.

Now, littlebigboy, just who sets the rules for the Jerry Kill Era? All too often I have seen the administrators, the media, the boosters, the insiders, the fans and people who claim to be the most loyal people in the world change tunes in the middle of a season and go from calling for the head of any other fan who questions anything to calling for the head of the coach.

Personally, I don't settle for any rules or "lines" that the "company attempts to dictate. If I have a question, I ask that question.

My question to you, littlebigboy is just who dictates the current company line? When the company line changes on a dime, who changes the company line? I have never really gone along with "company-speak" thinking. But, that's just me, I guess...
Have a good day littlebigboy.

; 0 )

 

[Killjoy]

If you don't know the history, you are doomed to repeat the history. Now, if that history has been a good history, that's not all bad. However, if that history has not led to better things...that is not good, at all.

Believe me, I am hoping for very good things for the Jerry Kill Era.

Now, littlebigboy, just who sets the rules for the Jerry Kill Era? All too often I have seen the administrators, the media, the boosters, the insiders, the fans and people who claim to be the most loyal people in the world change tunes in the middle of a season and go from calling for the head of any other fan who questions anything to calling for the head of the coach.

Personally, I don't settle for any rules or "lines" that the "company attempts to dictate. If I have a question, I ask that question.

My question to you, littlebigboy is just who dictates the current company line? When the company line changes on a dime, who changes the company line? I have never really gone along with "company-speak" thinking. But, that's just me, I guess...
Have a good day littlebigboy.

; 0 )

I hate it when wren goes off his meds!

 

[FanSinceTheFifties]

And here I thought that this tread was about the Turing Test on artificial intelligence. What a disappointment. No intelligence here

Or an intersection at Bletchley Park.

 

[bemidjigopher]

It will never happen. It is the longest running soap opera ever. Without it what would we ever talk about during these dead periods? But oh god I wish you were right.

Lets be real it stays alive as long as wren keeps it alive

 

[Big Ten Mind]

Okay, I don't want to start a Mason fight. But for those of you who were paying attention back in 98 - 99, were there any signs leading into the 99 season that the Gophers had turned the corner from the Wacker era? It would be interested to look at with respect to this team.

Mase definately started to get the car out of the ditch in '97/'98 but ultimately he never got the Gophs arriving in Florida or Pasadena for bowls.

His record vs. D1 oppponents who finished their seasons above .500 during his 10 years at the U:

12 wins 48 losses

 

[littlebigboy]

Birdy, if you had been following things since Pres. K and NT have come on board and still have to ask the question, you must be getting senile.

 

[imthewalrus]

Hey there bermidgigopher...it is NOT wren who starts the threads on Glen Mason...

Lets be real it stays alive as long as wren keeps it alive

It is other people. Other people appear to have a lot of interest in bringing threads about Glen Mason to this board. Is that my fault? Is that my doing? No, of course it is not. Glen Mason was and is a very interesting person to a LOT of people on Gopher Hole, it appears...and YOU people do that... ; 0 )

So go right ahead and post threads about Coach Mason. I don't start those posts. So many of you people weigh in on those posts. It would appear that Coach Mason Posts really get the attention of people here on Gopher Hole. In fact, some of you even bring up my name when I don't post. So, thanks for all the attention...even when I am not around.

Maybe some day I will have to start a thread about Coach Mason...but...I guess that really isn't necessary since SO many of you people credit me for keeping the interest in Coach Mason going even when I don't even participate.

I am rooting very hard for Coach Kill to some day put a team on the field that can be as competitive as some of Coach Mason's Teams were. I want Coach Kill to put as many All-Americans and All-Big Ten Players on the field as Coach Mason and his staff did. I want Coach Kill to take the team to bowl games most seasons and to win some of them.

So, bermidgigopher: thanks for including me in your little post. I just think that your little post really doesn't convey much insight into the topic of "...keeping the topic of Glen Mason vs. the Mason Bashers alive on Gopher Hole..." Of course, if your little post was really a request for more involvement in this matter on my part, I must simply consider the source and I want to take this opportunity to ask you to please go on with your little life without the topic of Glen Mason and any references by you to my personal favorite former moniker "wren."

Sorry bermidgigopher: I really don't have time for you... I'm too busy rooting for Coach Kill and my Gophers!

; 0 )

 

[imthewalrus]

Birdy, if you had been following things since Pres. K and NT have come on board and still have to ask the question, you must be getting senile.

I notice results littlebigboy. I listen to what they say, and then I watch to see if the results on the playing field match their words. If having that much common sense equates to becoming senile so be it. BUT, talk is cheap...I need to see what they actually do to make the program and the University better. Results...not just fancy talk. Do you understand that littlebigboy? B1G wins vs. B1G losses will tell the story in football and in basketball. Overall ranking of the University of Minnesota undergraduate programs and graduate programs and research and funding from the state of Minnesota will tell the story about prexy k.

I have watched and listened to a LOT of prexy's at the U and ad's at the U as they ALL told us about the great things that they were planning or thinking about doing or were going to do. Prexy Y was about the only one who raised a couple of billion dollars...started rehabbing the campus and brought a vision for the furure of the U. The jury is still out on Prexy K...but...he and his new norwood will have to show me with RESULTS...not just their smooth talk.

Perhaps the name of our athletic department's administration should be VCU-WEST-Minnesota Division based upon the number of VCU Staff Members that the new norwood brought with him. I think it might be a good idea to keep an eye on the state of affairs at good old VCU... Just when was the last time their football team was ranked in the top-25? Weren't they usually contenders in football in that tough Villa Seven Conference? (wink-wink-wink)

; 0 )

 

[Killjoy]

Maybe I was wrong...

...Wren's problem may not be only a result of him being off his meds. I am sure it is compounded by too much smoke inhalation from all those candles he lite for saint Glen. You can tell it has taken a toll on him because he thinks everybody else is making him talk about Glen. When will he realize those voices he is hearing aren't really Glen's?

 

[imthewalrus]

I don't know what you are trying to say...or where you got your numbers...BUT...

Mase definately started to get the car out of the ditch in '97/'98 but ultimately he never got the Gophs arriving in Florida or Pasadena for bowls.

His record vs. D1 oppponents who finished their seasons above .500 during his 10 years at the U:

12 wins 48 losses

We simply have to revisit the case you are attempting to make.

You said that Mason's record vs D1 opponents who finished their seasons above .500 during Mason's 10 years at the U was 12 wins and 48 losses.

I quickly added up Mason's wins against Big Ten opponents who finished at .500 or above in Big Ten Play and came up with the following:

Mason beat 8 Big Ten Teams who finished .500 or above in Big Ten play. He lost to 42 Big Ten Teams who finished .500 and above. Doesn't sound so great, does it?

So, then I checked back to Cal Stoll's record against teams in the Big Ten that finished .500 and above. Should be a good apples to apples comparison with Mason...right? Well...

Cal Stoll beat 2 Big Ten Teams that finished at .500 or above in Big Ten play. He lost to 23 teams who finished .500 and above. It was the Big Two...little 8 during Cal's years...all the teams other than the osu and Michigan beat each other up and were in big log-jams for positions between #3 and 10 in conference play...

Now, let's take a look at how Murray Warmath did:

In his 18 seasons with the Gophers, Murray beat 15 Big Ten Teams that finished .500 or better in Big Ten Play. He lost to about 65 teams that finished .500 or above in Big Ten play during those years.


I will make no conclusions other than to say: your numbers don't look really any worse for Coach Mason than the numbers comparing Coach Stoll and Coach Warmath against their peer coaches in Big Ten Play. All three of these coaches...Coach Warmath...Coach Stoll and Coach Mason were all pretty darn good football coaches in their own rights. And, in the end...the administrators fired them all.

The numbers will tell you what the numbers will tell you...no more...no less and plenty in between... Isn't that right, big ten mind...

; 0 )