Time to move on?

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Sota1

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Let me start out by saying that our ability to lure Tubby to the "U" was a big win for the state, the program is an upgrade from the prior years under Munson, and the basketball team has "some" national relevance. But.......
1. Tubby has had not less than 6 pretty major issues under his watch (White, Mbakwe, Nolen, Bostick, Cobb, current legal issue with Williams)
2. He has had 1 good recruiting class (and even that was dilutes with the 2 no shows)
3. His substitution system doesn't seem to be a positive draw for high level recruits.
4. His slow down, pass it around, wait until 7 seconds on the clock is a negative for recruits.
5. 2 appearances in the dance (which should have been expected) and 2 poor performances.
6. We are constantly fearful that Tubby will walk if a better offer comes around. He has not come out and said he is here through his contract.

If this was some mid major team we could be happy with his recruiting and settle for his style of play. We are paying this guy a lot of money to win games for the gophers. I know the process takes time, but we appear to be starting over after 3 years. Not to say we won't win games next year or the year after, but there are no expectations of doing anything of relevance in the near future. The first three years I was the one saying we are lucky to have him, look where we were the past 10 years, etc. Shouldn't we be past this honeymoon period? Shouldn't we expect top 20 recruiting classes every year? Shouldn't we expect to finish in the top 4 in the conference every year? We have Tubby Smith! We are a large, big ten conference team in the best city in the conference. Is this Minnesota nice?

I think Maturi understands the importance of having a big time coach and paying the dollars to make the team marketable. Just one look at his other major hire should be the proof. So, put Tubby to the fire and raise the expectations. If he wants to go, let him. As long as we are committed to hiring a decent coach I am fine with that. When we signed him up, I thought we were getting a winning team without the "problems". We have neither today. I know you can't blame him for the things that have happened directly. Fool me once..... But 6 issues?? Tubby is never going to feel entirely at home here. He is an established coach with roots elsewhere. Why not save everyone the yearly struggle and angst over the team and his staying and start working on a contingency plan.
 

Not sure you can argue that the Gophers aren't winning. How many back to back NCAA tournament teams has the program ever had?

Ps. Nice work chicken little.
 

Settling on mediocrity is not "chicken little". You hire a big time coach, we should expect to go to the tournament. Probably one of the reasons he came here, was the limited lack of expectations and limited pressure. Cash a big check, put a serviceable team out and punch the clock. Until we raise the bar, we will continue to be also rans. If you are happy with where the program is headed, keep looking down at the ground. Maybe we should be looking up at the sky and expecting more.
 

Sota1 said:
Settling on mediocrity is not "chicken little". You hire a big time coach, we should expect to go to the tournament. Probably one of the reasons he came here, was the limited lack of expectations and limited pressure. Cash a big check, put a serviceable team out and punch the clock. Until we raise the bar, we will continue to be also rans. If you are happy with where the program is headed, keep looking down at the ground. Maybe we should be looking up at the sky and expecting more.
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Utterly STUPID comment.

Tubby wants to win championships wherever he coaches.
 

Probably one of the reasons he came here, was the limited lack of expectations and limited pressure. Cash a big check, put a serviceable team out and punch the clock.
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That is an amazingly insulting statement.
 



You have a valid point or two, but basically this post is the kind of over-the-top sky-is-falling thing I'd have expected from BIGgopherfan or someone similar. You count Justin Cobbs, a medicore PG transferring as a 'Major issue'? Really? So every school in America has major issues? As for Royce and Trevor, I don't love the way things were handled there, but moreso by Maturi then Tubby.

Bottom-line is that Tubby's first season was better then anyone expected. His second season met virtually everyone's expectations. His 3rd season had all manner of things go wrong, most of which were not under his control but he STILL managed to pull the team back from the brink and drag in to the NCAA tournament. It was one of the better coaching jobs I've ever seen those last 4 weeks.

As for his recruiting, the first class was top 25 and has basically been a sucess thus far. The second, was Top 20 and has completely blown up. It is indeed very disappointing, but largely due to other circumstances. The third class was initially recruited with limited spots and limited playing time to offer. Due to class #2 blowing up, they've had to fill spots they didn't know they'd have and therefore have unknown talents. But only a fool would judge it a success or failure before a single one of them has even taken the floor.
 

Pretty Much Agree

I'd give a B grade for 2008 results but only C grade for 2009 or 2010. Both teams were capable of 25 W and winning NCAA game(s) but didn't do either.

I think the 2010 recruits will turn out well after 4 years just like his 2000 recruits did at UK.
 

I also must ask, what is the point of this post? It's May. Tubby's not going anywhere. Are you suggesting we should fire him? This would have at least made sense 2 months ago amid the many rumors of his leaving. It makes no sense now. You're aggitated about Trevor's situation so you post a long rambling thread about how it's time to move on from Tubby? To who? Hiring a new College basketball coach in June would be a disaster, like trying to hire a college football coach in late January. No one does either..oh wait.
 



howeda7 said:
His 3rd season had all manner of things go wrong, most of which were not under his control but he STILL managed to pull the team back from the brink and drag in to the NCAA tournament. It was one of the better coaching jobs I've ever seen those last 4 weeks.

I totally agree with this. Just my two cents, but I think one of the toughest jobs of any coach or manager in any sport is when the team is on the verge of heading south on him. I thought coach Smith did a really good job of righting them.
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Ok. I may have over reacted a bit. Normally, I take the high side on these matters. It has got me very frustrated to see one thing after another come up. I guess hearing Tubby hym and haw on his deposition did not come off in the greatest light and kind of set me off. I respect what he has done, but can't believe that the string of things that have happened to this program is is just dumb luck. I don't see things turning around real quick at this point and my comments were more of a vent then anything. My point in "time to move on" is: Let's not let the tail wag the dog. Tubby is culpible for what has happened. It is his program and should be accountable.
 


howeda7 said:
You have a valid point or two, but basically this post is the kind of over-the-top sky-is-falling thing I'd have expected from BIGgopherfan or someone similar. You count Justin Cobbs, a medicore PG transferring as a 'Major issue'? Really? So every school in America has major issues? As for Royce and Trevor, I don't love the way things were handled there, but moreso by Maturi then Tubby.

Bottom-line is that Tubby's first season was better then anyone expected. His second season met virtually everyone's expectations. His 3rd season had all manner of things go wrong, most of which were not under his control but he STILL managed to pull the team back from the brink and drag in to the NCAA tournament. It was one of the better coaching jobs I've ever seen those last 4 weeks.

As for his recruiting, the first class was top 25 and has basically been a sucess thus far. The second, was Top 20 and has completely blown up. It is indeed very disappointing, but largely due to other circumstances. The third class was initially recruited with limited spots and limited playing time to offer. Due to class #2 blowing up, they've had to fill spots they didn't know they'd have and therefore have unknown talents. But only a fool would judge it a success or failure before a single one of them has even taken the floor.
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*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# you
 





LOL @ moving on after 3 years. The problem is when hiring a big time coach to a post where it was trash not long ago, expectations may be sky high, but it's not even remotely shocking that there actually be some growing pains. I mean honestly, people, our hopes for a title this soon pretty much hinged on EVERYTHING going right. When does that ever happen, especially in Minnesota of all places? Considering the crap that's gone down, the program's still in quite good shape for three years of work. AND it will continue to get better, yes, I said it. I would almost go as far as guarantee it, but this is Minnesota, ish hits the fan too frequently for me to ever guarantee success for any Minnesota sports team.

As for Tubby's offensive system, with improved offensive players, it will look better. If the post guys keep improving, with improved wing play from guys like Devoe, Hoff, and Rodney, the offense could actually be quite good. Throw in the unique talents of an Oto who has size but can shoot it, and Hollins reportedly can hit the long ball as well, and the offense should keep getting better.
 

Probably one of the reasons he came here, was the limited lack of expectations and limited pressure

Bingo!

Not saying Tubby doesn't want to win....there are just far fewer consequences if he doesn't. That is not Tubby's fault, but just the product of being a middle of pack BCS program (at best) over the years and the AD and president are just thrilled not to be in last place.

On a related note, OTS has got to be one frustrated, borderline unhappy individual right now. He did not sign up for this circus. Players flaking out on him and then the Jimmy Williams saga. On top of that, this so called practice facility we keep hearing about is not going to happen anytime soon.
 

Art Vandelay said:
Probably one of the reasons he came here, was the limited lack of expectations and limited pressure

Bingo!

Not saying Tubby doesn't want to win....there are just far fewer consequences if he doesn't. That is not Tubby's fault, but just the product of being a middle of pack BCS program (at best) over the years and the AD and president are just thrilled not to be in last place.

On a related note, OTS has got to be one frustrated, borderline unhappy individual right now. He did not sign up for this circus. Players flaking out on him and then the Jimmy Williams saga. On top of that, this so called practice facility we keep hearing about is not going to happen anytime soon.
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I think you make some valid points in your last paragraph. Maybe not all of them but some ARE legitimate.
 

Heck, I think we're ahead of schedule, despite our issues

For my tastes, it's way too premature for "the sky is falling" bandwagon to pick up much steam. Despite the setbacks we had last season on and off the court, the Gophers managed to scrape out a NCAA Tournament bid. Yes, the Gophers did it at the last minute (winning 2 critical games in Indianapolis) and, no, the Gophers didn't get off the NCAA tourney schneid (sp?), but the season was salvaged despite far from ideal circumstances. That's a testament to Tubby, his staff and the (remaining) players.

For the most part, I think the Gopher program is on track, if not ahead of, what I expected the day Tubby was hired. In Year 1, the Gophers were much more competitive than I ever could have anticipated (see a trip to the BTT semifinals). In Year 2, I didn't expect a NCAA bid, but I did expect them to be improved, which they were (see beating eventual #1 seed Louisville on a neutral court & sweep of Wisconsin). It wasn't until Year 3 (which included neutral-site wins over two Final Four teams + a Sweet 16 team) that I expected the Gophers to legitimately compete for (but not necessarily land) a NCAA bid, so in terms of the NCAA Tournament I think the program's about a year or year-and-a-half ahead of schedule.

Year 4 is when I expected the program to make a big jump, both in the Big Ten and in the NCAA Tournament. This coming season is the one where I expect the Gophers to compete legitimately for a Big Ten championship and/or make a NCAA tourney run to at least the Sweet 16. Obviously, with what's happened off the court and the significant improvement of the Big Ten as a whole, that task has become much more daunting. But I'm more than willing to see how 2010-11 plays out. My expectations for Year 4 haven't changed from the day Tubby was hired. I'm looking forward to finding out if the Gopher program's progression (from the dark, dark, "Barn empty" days of the Monson era just 3 short years ago) can continue.

Bottom line is we're coming off back-to-back NCAA Tournament appearances. How many times has that occurred in Gophers history (counting the vacated seasons)? Answer: not very often, 3 times (89-90, 94-95, 08-09). If the Gophers go again next year for the 3rd straight season, it will be the first time in the program's history that feat will have been accomplished.

By all means, let's run Tubby out of town (tongue planted firmly in cheek) at the first sign of adversity, which is basically what last season and this off-season have been.
 

Art Vandelay said:
Probably one of the reasons he came here, was the limited lack of expectations and limited pressure

Bingo!

Not saying Tubby doesn't want to win....there are just far fewer consequences if he doesn't. That is not Tubby's fault, but just the product of being a middle of pack BCS program (at best) over the years and the AD and president are just thrilled not to be in last place.

On a related note, OTS has got to be one frustrated, borderline unhappy individual right now. He did not sign up for this circus. Players flaking out on him and then the Jimmy Williams saga. On top of that, this so called practice facility we keep hearing about is not going to happen anytime soon.
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I would guess the expectations here are pretty similar to 75-80% of the BCS programs in major college basketball. Tourney every year with a good run (sweet 16) every 3 years and 1 deep run every decade. Are we paying him too much money for those kind of results? Not if he is bringing in enough money to offset his salary and then some. Why would the expectations be higher than Kentucky or North Carolina? It would be cool to get to that point some day, but aren't there a lot of steps in between the current state of Gopher basketball, and an NCAA dynasty?

As many steps as there are now, think about how many there were before Tubby got here? We were last year's Iowa team when Tubby took over and now people want to look at other options after the last two years when the program turned around completely? Most programs have off the court problems, do you want to get rid of a guy because he couldn't prevent them or do you want to keep the guy that was able to salvage the season after everybody left them for dead?

As far as the original poster is concerned, I'm not sure you can say that next year is starting over. The Gophers will still have a very good starting five, and if Mbakwe is back they will have a better top 7 than any team since 1997 with RSIII, Colt, Mbakwe, Hoff, Devoe, Nolen, and Rodney. I have no idea how good the new players will be, and you probably don't either. Tubby has done a nice job developing players so far so I am going to trust that even if some of the new recruits aren't highly touted they will end up being good.

As far as the controversy and contingency plans go, Tubby has had plenty of chances to leave and hasn't done it yet. He isn't going anywhere. At this point I wouldn't blame him as Art mentioned, he didn't sign up for all this nonsense. But he is going to stick it out and the program will be better for it. Everybody that picked Wisconsin to finish 9th last year was a complete idiot because Bo Ryan wasn't going to let that happen. Anybody picking the Gophers to finish near the bottom next year will look just as stupid because Tubby will get it done.
 

Cry me a river 2/3 of tubbys recruiting classes have been ranked, I'm sick of you sallys crying on this board. Can we just look forward to next year and quit b!tching, please n thanks.
 

Art Vandelay said:
Probably one of the reasons he came here, was the limited lack of expectations and limited pressure

Bingo!

Not saying Tubby doesn't want to win....there are just far fewer consequences if he doesn't. That is not Tubby's fault, but just the product of being a middle of pack BCS program (at best) over the years and the AD and president are just thrilled not to be in last place.

On a related note, OTS has got to be one frustrated, borderline unhappy individual right now. He did not sign up for this circus. Players flaking out on him and then the Jimmy Williams saga. On top of that, this so called practice facility we keep hearing about is not going to happen anytime soon.
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Art, this is the 1st post of yours that I ever liked. I am very worried that Tubby may leave because of these issues. He has never so many setbacks in one season. Lets hope that our new kids this year make us proud.

Go Gophers
 

chi-town gopher said:
I would guess the expectations here are pretty similar to 75-80% of the BCS programs in major college basketball. Tourney every year with a good run (sweet 16) every 3 years and 1 deep run every decade. Are we paying him too much money for those kind of results? Not if he is bringing in enough money to offset his salary and then some. Why would the expectations be higher than Kentucky or North Carolina? It would be cool to get to that point some day, but aren't there a lot of steps in between the current state of Gopher basketball, and an NCAA dynasty?

As many steps as there are now, think about how many there were before Tubby got here? We were last year's Iowa team when Tubby took over and now people want to look at other options after the last two years when the program turned around completely? Most programs have off the court problems, do you want to get rid of a guy because he couldn't prevent them or do you want to keep the guy that was able to salvage the season after everybody left them for dead?

As far as the original poster is concerned, I'm not sure you can say that next year is starting over. The Gophers will still have a very good starting five, and if Mbakwe is back they will have a better top 7 than any team since 1997 with RSIII, Colt, Mbakwe, Hoff, Devoe, Nolen, and Rodney. I have no idea how good the new players will be, and you probably don't either. Tubby has done a nice job developing players so far so I am going to trust that even if some of the new recruits aren't highly touted they will end up being good.

As far as the controversy and contingency plans go, Tubby has had plenty of chances to leave and hasn't done it yet. He isn't going anywhere. At this point I wouldn't blame him as Art mentioned, he didn't sign up for all this nonsense. But he is going to stick it out and the program will be better for it. Everybody that picked Wisconsin to finish 9th last year was a complete idiot because Bo Ryan wasn't going to let that happen. Anybody picking the Gophers to finish near the bottom next year will look just as stupid because Tubby will get it done.
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Great post SS. As always, I respect your comments.

Go Gophers
 

I agree with a lot of different points in this thread from the original poster and others. I don't agree that there have been all these "issues" (Trevor's incident happened while he was a student at another school, Cobbs transfer is something that happens). I also don't agree that there has been only 1 good recruiting class under Tubby. He's had two good recruiting classes (Devoe, Ralph, and Colton all had really good offers, Paul Carter was a good JUCO transfer).

I agree with SS that Tubby initially exceeded my expectations (year 1 and year 2), but I expected the NCAA tournament in year 3 and a significant step forward in year 4. My concern is that it certainly appears that the Gophers will be taking a step back in year 4. If that step back (largely due to unforseen circumstances with White, Mbakwe, Carter) looked to be just a one year deal, it would be easier to stomach, but still a huge disappointment.

My concern is with recruiting, it seems to be going downhill. I am not excited about the 2010 class and the 2011 class needs to be excellent to get this program back to where we thought it was at the beginning of 2009. One point I'd like to make: did anyone think that the final two Monson recruits would both be not only starters, but crucial components in Tubby's 4th year?
 

ESPN had a recruiting chat.. here was one question and answer today

mike in MN (MN)


If Tubby can't recruit, is it worth paying him all this money? What's going on here?

Paul Biancardi (2:00 PM)


Mike, Tubby can recruit. He's won at a high level everywhere he's been. Be patient and know he will get them to the top of the Big Ten
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Folks.... RELAX
 

SelectionSunday said:
Year 4 is when I expected the program to make a big jump, both in the Big Ten and in the NCAA Tournament. This coming season is the one where I expect the Gophers to compete legitimately for a Big Ten championship and/or make a NCAA tourney run to at least the Sweet 16. Obviously, with what's happened off the court and the significant improvement of the Big Ten as a whole, that task has become much more daunting. But I'm more than willing to see how 2010-11 plays out. My expectations for Year 4 haven't changed from the day Tubby was hired. I'm looking forward to finding out if the Gopher program's progression (from the dark, dark, "Barn empty" days of the Monson era just 3 short years ago) can continue.
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I think this is pretty spot on. The expectations for year 4 should be high. Based on the defections and mediocre recruiting, I am not optimistic that it will turn out well. We aren't renewing our season tickets this year--mainly due to the poor non-conference schedule. I am thinking we won't be missing much, but I hope I'm wrong.
 

The-Real-Truth said:
Art, this is the 1st post of yours that I ever liked. I am very worried that Tubby may leave because of these issues. He has never so many setbacks in one season. Lets hope that our new kids this year make us proud.

Go Gophers
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The 2000 and 2002 seasons at KY had numerous "setbacks" but UK followed those with several EXCELLENT years.
 

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