This is what's wrong with The State High School League

husker70

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I was reading the count down of the top 100 players in The Minnesota High School Basketball Tournament. Personally I was waitng for Bob Zender's name, think he came in 5th.3 state titles 59-1. But my interest was peaked by Dean Veenhof of the Edgerton Flying Ducthmen at 22. Smallest school to win since Gaylord in 1926. Well that got me on a history jag. And I found this on The Flying Dutchmen,and the one face that I thought I recognized was Darrell Kreun. He was the coach at Gaylord and later at Sibley East. He ended up winning over 500 games as a coach.
Just follow the link and at the bottom of the page is a video. This is what a State Championsip use to look like.


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So... what is wrong with the MSHSL? Not sure I get your point.
 


The State High School League philosophy was changed in the mid 60's when true competition and the idea of winning is the only thing being taken out of context. They choose participation over competition. When 2 classes didn't allow enough participation they moved to 4. Where is the chance for an Edgerton today to beat today's Eden Praire or Hopkins? There was a season about 7 years ago when Litchfield played and beat Minneapolis North in a regular season game, they went on to an undefeated season and a second tier championship with no chance to face North the eventual 2A winner. If you watch the video and compare the packed Barn with 20,000 to the current tournament again you see the difference they have wrougth.
 

I think there is a greater disparity between the biggest and smallest schools today than there used to be. People point to Litchfield, Braham, or Staples-Motley (from the 90's) as examples of small schools who competed with the big schools. But those are some of the best small school teams ever in the state. And all three are 2A schools. You have over 200 1A schools that very rarely would be able to compete with the 3A and 4A schools. It's just not going to happen very often.

I'm went to a small 1A school, and I would have been all about trying to compete against the big boys at the time. But in reality there is no way we could have competed. We tend to only remember these instances because they are so special and unique. But really they wouldn't happen very often.

I'd be perfectly fine if they went back to a two class system. Then have the two champions play each other at the end after the 1A and 2A championships for fun. At the very least, they should go to three classes. Having to only win three games to get to state is ridiculous to me.
 


I know my 1A school was barely able to compete with the 2A schools in our conference.
 

While the entire "Hoosiers" storyline is fun and on the off chance it's possible every 20 or so years, it would be interesting. The truth is that in reality, for the vast majority of these schools and players they absolutely cannot compete. I am not in the "everyone deserves a trophy" mold, but I also think that kids who attend smaller schools should be allowed to legitimately play in the sections and they should be allowed compete against their equals.
 

I think there is a greater disparity between the biggest and smallest schools today than there used to be. People point to Litchfield, Braham, or Staples-Motley (from the 90's) as examples of small schools who competed with the big schools. But those are some of the best small school teams ever in the state. And all three are 2A schools. You have over 200 1A schools that very rarely would be able to compete with the 3A and 4A schools. It's just not going to happen very often.

I'm went to a small 1A school, and I would have been all about trying to compete against the big boys at the time. But in reality there is no way we could have competed. We tend to only remember these instances because they are so special and unique. But really they wouldn't happen very often.

I'd be perfectly fine if they went back to a two class system. Then have the two champions play each other at the end after the 1A and 2A championships for fun. At the very least, they should go to three classes. Having to only win three games to get to state is ridiculous to me.

Duluth East only had two win 2 games since they were the number one seed in a section with only seven teams and thus had a bye in the section quarters.
 

I think a big problem with the current system is a school like Duluth East can't be very close to most of it's competition. If not for outliers way out there, I don't think we'd be having problem with this. I know in my area I can't think of a single school larger than 3A, but if you put these schools up against the 4A schools from the cities they wouldn't stand a chance.
 



High school basketball in the twin cities has evolved into what amounts to are all star teams. It would be very hard for a small town to compete with some of these teams.

Melrose dominated it's class and might have been the best team in Minnesota for a period, I doubt that could happen today.
 

Problem is too many teams in the tourney - playing games at 10 in the morning is ridiculous. Combine the top two classes in a seeded tournament
 


You play four classes. The four in each class left after normal tournament play down become eligible for a Sweet-16 One Class Tournament.

Throw brackets into a hat, throw all names in a hat to fill the brackets. This would take two weekends but we would then have an NCAA format of Sweet 16 on 1st weekend, Final 4 on 2nd weekend. Then, we crown a champion. But the MSHSL would never go this route because it might cost a few bucks. It is still about money, not the kids.
 



You play four classes. The four in each class left after normal tournament play down become eligible for a Sweet-16 One Class Tournament.

Throw brackets into a hat, throw all names in a hat to fill the brackets. This would take two weekends but we would then have an NCAA format of Sweet 16 on 1st weekend, Final 4 on 2nd weekend. Then, we crown a champion. But the MSHSL would never go this route because it might cost a few bucks. It is still about money, not the kids.

And we can have basketball in May!!
 

I don't think anyone is proposing that we seed all the teams in the state in one gigantic bracket so #1 seed Hopkins plays #413 seed New York Mills in the first round. As with our glorious March Madness, give the smaller schools an easier path to the big dance through similar competition before they step up to Duke and Missouri. Small schools don't need class A state championship trophies in the trophy case to feel good about themselves. You get more out of losing to someone better than you than you do by crushing someone worse.
 



Sid Hartman once wrote that "they" had "ruined" the state tournament because the small town Cinderellas don't have the chance to beat the big city powers any more.

The problem with this statement is that 1) the small town Cinderellas didn't win very often even back in the day. 2) Today they could not compete due to the fact that the big city teams many of them are all-star teams drawing kids from all over the place. I mean, the other huge suburban schools can't compete with Hopkins. How is Greenbush gonna do that? And not that anybody is doing anything illegal. High schools are governed by a state law called "open enrollment." Kids can go wherever they want.

Then 3) the point is that the tournament is not for Sid and its not for you or me, it's for the kids. I totally disagree that it is motivated by money and not kids. That is incorrect.
 

I don't think anyone is proposing that we seed all the teams in the state in one gigantic bracket so #1 seed Hopkins plays #413 seed New York Mills in the first round. As with our glorious March Madness, give the smaller schools an easier path to the big dance through similar competition before they step up to Duke and Missouri. Small schools don't need class A state championship trophies in the trophy case to feel good about themselves. You get more out of losing to someone better than you than you do by crushing someone worse.
Disagreed. Did you go to one of these small schools? Do you really think the kids at these small schools want to go and get smacked by teams that are just better than them? I know my school loved winning the state title in football a couple years ago (I know different sport but you could make the same argument for football) and I don't think a single one of the players would want to end the season a different way.
 

Disagreed. Did you go to one of these small schools? Do you really think the kids at these small schools want to go and get smacked by teams that are just better than them? I know my school loved winning the state title in football a couple years ago (I know different sport but you could make the same argument for football) and I don't think a single one of the players would want to end the season a different way.
Yes, I went to a small school. I would rather play Hopkins than Melrose. That's just me. but, I didn't say we'd limit teams to one tournament. this NIT doesn't seem so bad. The gophers didn't have to choose between the big ten tournament with a chance to play on the big stage and the NIT.
 

I would guess that many or most people would prefer the system that they grew up with.

Tell me if I'm wrong.
 

I don't think anyone is proposing that we seed all the teams in the state in one gigantic bracket so #1 seed Hopkins plays #413 seed New York Mills in the first round. As with our glorious March Madness, give the smaller schools an easier path to the big dance through similar competition before they step up to Duke and Missouri. Small schools don't need class A state championship trophies in the trophy case to feel good about themselves. You get more out of losing to someone better than you than you do by crushing someone worse.

You do? So when MN-Duluth won the D2 football championship a few years ago, they would have gotten more out of it if they gotten beat by 40+ by a Big Ten team?

There are good 1A teams who's tallest player is 6-3 or 6-4. There's no way they could compete with these big schools who have guys much bigger and stronger than them.
 

I agree, it is for kids, but quite frankly some of the Metro kids completely freak me out.
 

You do? So when MN-Duluth won the D2 football championship a few years ago, they would have gotten more out of it if they gotten beat by 40+ by a Big Ten team?

There are good 1A teams who's tallest player is 6-3 or 6-4. There's no way they could compete with these big schools who have guys much bigger and stronger than them.

Basketball is different than football and the difference in rules between college divisions and high school divisions does factor into your question, but to give a straight-forward answer, yes, yes, the duluth players would get better by playing against a Big Ten team. They'd get more national exposure losing in the first round against the highest level competition than they did winning d2.

D1 college basketball is worthy of emulating. You give everyone a chance to play in the big tournament, then hold other tournaments for non-qualifiers to give more post-season opportunities to teams so they can travel and play other schools they wouldn't normally play in the regular season. If the NCAA were to adopt the MSHSL way of doing things, Ohio, Lehigh, VCU and Butler would play exclusively in the NIT. Let the kids play.
 

This is what's wrong with this thread: it has absolutely nothing at all to do with University of Minnesota basketball.
 

This is a subject very near and dear to my heart. There are some complicating matters, such as the open enrollment all-star situation that has surfaced in the Twin Cities. That is a definite issue for the prospect of reducing classes. I agree.

However, after attending last year's state tournament and coming away with the feeling like my son and I had raised the attendance by one third, it is clear to me the recent rush to multiple classes is a bad choice. I agree it is very difficult for a current 1A school to compete with an all star Hopkins squad. However, after what I have seen in the form of the dramatic decline in the interest in the state tournament... the attempt to give more schools a chance, really just waters down the experience. What if a tournament was held in the woods? Would it make a sound?

Not counting the prickly issue of metro all star teams... there are other circumstances that make Basketball a unique sport where special, once in a lifetime small schools can compete with schools with much larger enrollment. Some of the reasons for this are quite simple:
1. There are many more small schools. Just the law of averages means that in any given year, a once-in-a-generation school can compete with top big schools.
2. There is a participation issue that rides under the surface of enrollment. I played for a tiny school where the second best player on the team, and honorable mention all conference performer as a senior would have easily washed out of a big program by the time he had hit 7th grade. He totally blossomed both in height and skill after his Sophomore year. Small schools tend to not lose players like this. Meanwhile, big schools often get phenoms that naturally stick with the sport despite a growth or development curve that ends early. They outlast the late bloomers, and are left with less competition later.
3. More sport offerings have a way of reducing the student-per-basketball player ratio at big schools. Many smaller schools offer basketball as the only winter sport and it is a big deal in these small communities. Meanwhile, with a bazillion choices and increased specialization to only one sport, many big schools get their basketball participation thinned by the time the kids reach upper elementary, further reducing the chance for late bloomers to emerge. This is true in the much larger district I live in now, with my children (which by comparing schedules, would likely have gone 2-6 against my old tiny alma mater over the last 8 years).

These issues and others tend to level the situation. Big schools still win more, but not always. This is what generates interest in a state tournament. Nobody is suggesting small schools can win 50/50. It is the fact that some CAN win on occasion deep into a tournament that creates interest in a state tournament.

This brings me to my last point: I grew up in the era of two classes, when everyone older than me was lamenting how it was much better with one. I played for a tiny school and we were pretty decent. We advanced to the big stage of a local college arena where we eventually lost in the District (now section) semi finals. The District had 14 teams and fed to a region where there were three other districts. We played in front of 3K fans and a raucous atmosphere in the district semi finals. It was the time of my life. I will never forget it. Our District champion (we lost to them by 2 during the year) caught fire but eventually lost to the eventual state class A champion in the region finals (one of the best HS games I have ever seen, with two teams that would now be in different classes). There were Star-Tribune articles, packed houses, people sitting in the aisles, etc. and nobody had even made it to state yet. I compare that to today where there are four classes, nobody goes to the games, and even the 4A third place game is played at Concordia. I used to even follow the consolation brackets in the old tournament. Now teams are forgotten unless they reach the championship game. Who is being served? Just how many kids are getting a better experience? You have to advance to the championship game now just to get the exposure that schools used to get by making it to the state tournament.
 

People here mention attendance at the State Tournament like that's the reason this should be changed. That's just stupid. "Oh, your town of 500 isn't bringing very many people to the game so we're just gonna make you play against the best team in the state, sound good?" Of course these small towns aren't bringing many fans, they don't have a lot of people!
 

People here mention attendance at the State Tournament like that's the reason this should be changed. That's just stupid. "Oh, your town of 500 isn't bringing very many people to the game so we're just gonna make you play against the best team in the state, sound good?" Of course these small towns aren't bringing many fans, they don't have a lot of people!

A good reason to have just one class is the normal basketball fan will have a larger desire to go watch if his or her school is out. People want to see games that produce a true champion.

Multiple classes makes sense for football, but basketball, you only need 5 guys on the court.
 

People here mention attendance at the State Tournament like that's the reason this should be changed. That's just stupid. "Oh, your town of 500 isn't bringing very many people to the game so we're just gonna make you play against the best team in the state, sound good?" Of course these small towns aren't bringing many fans, they don't have a lot of people!
It must be a total mystery to you how Edgerton played in front of 19000 at Williams.

Everybody loves an underdog. It's not just about attendance at the games. We've got quarterfinal games going on right now, and you can't watch on tv or even the internet. Bring back the "State Tourney".
 

zambam said:
People here mention attendance at the State Tournament like that's the reason this should be changed. That's just stupid. "Oh, your town of 500 isn't bringing very many people to the game so we're just gonna make you play against the best team in the state, sound good?" Of course these small towns aren't bringing many fans, they don't have a lot of people!

I think you miss the point and you also miss a reality of small town basketball. First, the people missing from the state tournament seats are the people with casual interest, not the fans from the participating schools - big or small.

Second, small town fans tend to follow their teams as a form of community pride and the reality that they likely know or recognize the players even if they don't have a connection to the school. This is usually not the case with big or private schools where parents and students make up the bulk of the fan base. At the subsection and section playoffs, small school game crowds are often as big or even bigger than 4A games. At the state tourney big school games do draw more because they attract more neutral fans.
 




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