The University of Minnesota will require all students to get vaccinated against COVID-19

IVIcChaos

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I'm sure you know what I'm about to say and just had a momentary lapse.

(1) No vaccine on earth prevents infections. The COVID vaccine is not an exception to this. If a vaccine is effective, it will provide a person's immune system a "head start" in mounting an effective response. And if your immunoresponse is sufficiently effective due to the vaccine or a previous illness or just plain good luck, you will become infected but not experience the illness (and you will clear the infection rapidly).

(2) There is a known mechanism - again not guesswork - wherein "leaky" vaccines (not all are, but the COVID vaccines are) create evolutionary pressure to generate variants. The reason is because a virus that mutates rapidly and is contagious responds as thus: (i) it mutates randomly in a vaccinated person; (ii) most of the mutational variations are killed off rapidly because of the person's "jump started" immunoresponse from the vaccine; (iii) the particular variations that are not killed off rapidly by virtue of the "jump started" immunoresponse are transmitted to the next vaccinated person before being killed off later; (iv) the next vaccinated person then begins his infection cycle with a mutational strain of the virus that is just a little better at evading a person's immunoresponse. And the cycle repeats. And with each iteration of the cycle, the virus becomes increasingly malign.

BTW - infection rates are an irrational metric for managing this particular pandemic. As stated before, vaccines cannot prevent infection - they jumpstart immune response. You can see this in the MA data - 64% fully vaccinated in the state. 73% of all cases are among the fully vaccinated. No prevention of infection. (A vaccine could largely eliminate a virus, but only if it isn't "leaky," and if the virus doesn't mutate rapidly, and if the virus doesn't have some sort of reservoir to sustain it. Obviously, if you can drive it toward extinction, then infection rates will go down - but not because a vaccine prevents infection - you are reducing the population of the virus, itself. This is not plausible here. The vaccines are leaky; the virus mutates and is quite communicable; and it has animal reservoirs.) We should look at outcomes instead. And there are several ways to get good outcomes. The trouble with applying a vaccine in this case to drive outcomes is that it also drives variants. And you will get a nightmare booster/variant combination sooner rather than later. ADE is real. And it is not always presented in subpopulations of <1%. We've seen 5%+ with other coronavirus vaccines. (God willing, we'd catch that in testing... but then we could end up with a strain for which there is no vaccine that does not generate outrageous levels of ADE.). The best course is to treat this other ways.
This is a great post. I learned something, quite a few things actually. One question though, what is ADE?
 

IVIcChaos

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It is indoors only. if you are sitting in the outdoor seats you do not need to wear one....(not that we need to wear one indoors either...there is not mandate thus it is unlawful) but that's besides the point.
I hope this is the case. I’d rather not attend if I need to wear a mask.
 

touchdownvikings

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There is no logically sound or valid argument for why this mechanism would suddenly cause long term effects when no other mechanism going back to smallpox has caused an adverse effect any more than 2 months after inoculation.

You trying to pretend that "well maybe!" is no different than saying "well maybe the sun will explode tomorrow". Not good enough
I wouldn't go so far as to say that these kinds of concern have no validity whatsoever. But, I would absolutely say: (1) of the concerns I listed, it is the particular concern that causes me the least worry - by far; and (2) I can see no particular reason that there should be long-term effects from this.

But...

(1) We know a lot about the various systems of the body. But we are far from knowing everything. And it is often the case that we witness surprising systemic responses. We have to remain honest and humble about our current state of our knowledge base. We cannot predict systemic outcomes from our knowledge of biological mechanisms alone. This is not physics. That's the reason we have to conduct trials: we are unable to reliably predict. We do not need to conduct trials in semiconductor design, for example.

(2) That said, if long-term effects were my only concern, I'd be in favor of a vaccine-based approach, if the disease we were fighting were more serious. This is because if I had to guess about long-term effects, I'd say the chances of there being any worthy of worry are small, and the potential damage due to the disease would outweigh that probability. But it's not my only concern. And the disease is not particularly serious.
 


touchdownvikings

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This is a great post. I learned something, quite a few things actually. One question though, what is ADE?
Antibody Dependent Enhancement. In short, in a subpopulation of vaccinated people, those who exhibit ADE experience a course of events wherein the vaccine actually enhances the progression of the disease (often killing the patient). So the vaccine has the exact opposite effect of its intended purpose.

Thank you for the kind words.
 


bga1

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Is this willful ignorance or are you even reading what anyone posted?

Most of this stuff really is like ... middle school level 'understanding more than one thing at a time' kinda stuff.

You don't seem to do it.

It's not hard to understand.
You might want to do some reading:

The University is foolish to force this- especially on kids who should have little or no fear of the virus.
The vaccine may be causing the mutations and become nearly useless against new strains- as we see possibly happening in Israel. Natural immunity is as good as (actually better than) the vaccine.

This is a foolish exercise in totalitarianism. A sad day for our University.
 

bga1

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Yup, if Alaska was genuinely asking, then this is the answer. To put it even more simply:

1) A vaccine greatly reduces the chances of catching and spreading all variants of COVID. It's not 100% effective, but I've yet to see any data indicating the shots aren't effective.

2) A vaccine greatly reduces the chances of being hospitalized, put on a ventilator, and/or dying. In my state, there were 1,500 people hospitalized with COVID in the past 30 days and 90% were unvaccinated. Of the 10% who were, zero were on a ventilator unless they had an underlying respiratory condition.

So mandates are essentially about both reducing spread to the unvaccinated (both adults who chose not to and young children who can't) AND about preventing overcrowding in hospitals and strain on public resources. Masks help with both as well.

PS: Can we all agree on this: Ski-U-Mah, RTB, Go Gophers!
If the vaccine makes you safe, why force it on others???

I am not against the vaccine. I am against forcing it. We do not know where this is headed. 480,000 VAERS reports so far of adverse effects from the vax.
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon

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You might want to do some reading:

The University is foolish to force this- especially on kids who should have little or no fear of the virus.
The vaccine may be causing the mutations and become nearly useless against new strains- as we see possibly happening in Israel. Natural immunity is as good as (actually better than) the vaccine.

This is a foolish exercise in totalitarianism. A sad day for our University.
You get mutations with a vaccine, or without ... that's just how viruses work, not a vaccine thing. And I'll even use your own words "may".

But somehow we're ok with vaccinating for other things?

And we vaccinate to prevent the spread to lots of people, not any given vaccinated person.

Again here we are with middle school-er type concepts....
 

Unregistered User

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If the vaccine makes you safe, why force it on others???

I am not against the vaccine. I am against forcing it. We do not know where this is headed. 480,000 VAERS reports so far of adverse effects from the vax.
Anyone can report events to VAERS (vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html) and a disclaimer on the website of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) says: “The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable” (here). When downloading the data, users are presented with a further disclaimer that the data does not include information from investigations into reported cases. The disclaimer also says “the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not imply causality” (here).
 



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You get mutations with a vaccine, or without ... that's just how viruses work, not a vaccine thing. And I'll even use your own words "may".

But somehow we're ok with vaccinating for other things?

And we vaccinate to prevent the spread to lots of people, not any given vaccinated person.

Again here we are with middle school-er type concepts....
My dog can't play with other dogs unless he's had his shots.

OVER REACH! NANNY STATE! TOTALITARIANISM! SHEEP!
 

alaska

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Anyone can report events to VAERS (vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html) and a disclaimer on the website of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) says: “The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable” (here). When downloading the data, users are presented with a further disclaimer that the data does not include information from investigations into reported cases. The disclaimer also says “the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not imply causality” (here).
Just as a Covid death can be labled as such when it was not the actual cause of death....
You get mutations with a vaccine, or without ... that's just how viruses work, not a vaccine thing. And I'll even use your own words "may".

But somehow we're ok with vaccinating for other things?

And we vaccinate to prevent the spread to lots of people, not any given vaccinated person.

Again here we are with middle school-er type concepts....
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So_Money

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I don't know the level of indemnification the U has, but sure seems to me by the use of force there is an opening for a discrimination lawsuit.
 







mnvballdad

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If the vaccine makes you safe, why force it on others???

I am not against the vaccine. I am against forcing it. We do not know where this is headed. 480,000 VAERS reports so far of adverse effects from the vax.

Months on and you're still asking the same stupid question. You don't understand what vaccines do and how they help in a pandemic. Never have, never will.
 

So_Money

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Bird law in this country is not governed by reason.
I am just stating that by the use of force they are requiring a non-insignificant amount of people get vaccinated when it is inadvisable due to disability... which could be problematic. Get over yourself.
 

boofbonser

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I am just stating that by the use of force they are requiring a non-insignificant amount of people get vaccinated when it is inadvisable due to disability... which could be problematic. Get over yourself.
I was replying to the TV show clip posted with another quote from the show (It’s always sunny in Philadelphia). I was not replying to you.
 

So_Money

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I was replying to the TV show clip posted with another quote from the show (It’s always sunny in Philadelphia). I was not replying to you.
And that clip was posted to disparage a reasonable observation. Whatever, it's all good.
 

boofbonser

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And that clip was posted to disparage a reasonable observation. Whatever, it's all good.
My comment was just a reference to the show, not an attempt to “disparage” your observation. All good though, deuces.
 

bga1

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Anyone can report events to VAERS (vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html) and a disclaimer on the website of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) says: “The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable” (here). When downloading the data, users are presented with a further disclaimer that the data does not include information from investigations into reported cases. The disclaimer also says “the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not imply causality” (here).
You trust the CDC and HHS. Noted. I don't. They have lied their way through this whole debacle. Does the vaccine work? You say yes. Why then do you need to force others to have it? You are safe!! (or not) Why is previous infection not given the same merit as artificial gene therapy from the vaccine? I'll answer that: $$$$
 


bga1

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You get mutations with a vaccine, or without ... that's just how viruses work, not a vaccine thing. And I'll even use your own words "may".

But somehow we're ok with vaccinating for other things?

And we vaccinate to prevent the spread to lots of people, not any given vaccinated person.

Again here we are with middle school-er type concepts....
This is not a traditional vaccine. The FDA forced Moderna in their SEC submission (you can read it yourself if you like) to admit that it was gene therapy. This is new ground. I wish you the best with it. I had Covid so I have natural immunity which is likely far better. Would I ever take the vaccine? Sure, if I thought it was a good risk choice. Today it is not. Not for the kids. Not for the healthy and not for those who already had Covid.

They just are not being honest with you. There is a ton of money at stake. It should give you some pause when the CEO of Pfizer- on the day after they got approval said that it would not be long before the vaccine is not effective against the variants. But not to worry he said- they would be able to come up with a booster for each variant within months. Money is what this is about. Research grant money, money for friends in Big Pharma that are greasing them. Billions upon billions of risk free government dollars are being grabbed in a once in a lifetime pharma bonanza. A "drug" with no liability- paid for in full.
 

bga1

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Months on and you're still asking the same stupid question. You don't understand what vaccines do and how they help in a pandemic. Never have, never will.
Months in and you still can't read to save your life. I believe that the vaccine is part of a good strategy towards herd immunity. It should be individually chosen by risk factor. Never forced. Never used by healthy kids. You either need to go back to reading class or go slower so that you can comprehend and get information past your tightly woven MSM filter.
 

bga1

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I don't know the level of indemnification the U has, but sure seems to me by the use of force there is an opening for a discrimination lawsuit.
What happens when a kid gets myocarditis or some other issue from it and dies. May well be a big lawsuit for that as well.
 

USAF

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Months on and you're still asking the same stupid question. You don't understand what vaccines do and how they help in a pandemic. Never have, never will.
Beeg, and those of his political ilk, do not WANT to understand.
This isn't a medical or public health issue to them. It's a political issue. It has been since Trump made covid political almost immediately, 18 months ago. Ergo, no amount of science, logic or fact will have the slightest effect.
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon

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This is not a traditional vaccine. The FDA forced Moderna in their SEC submission (you can read it yourself if you like) to admit that it was gene therapy. This is new ground. I wish you the best with it. I had Covid so I have natural immunity which is likely far better. Would I ever take the vaccine? Sure, if I thought it was a good risk choice. Today it is not. Not for the kids. Not for the healthy and not for those who already had Covid.

They just are not being honest with you. There is a ton of money at stake. It should give you some pause when the CEO of Pfizer- on the day after they got approval said that it would not be long before the vaccine is not effective against the variants. But not to worry he said- they would be able to come up with a booster for each variant within months. Money is what this is about. Research grant money, money for friends in Big Pharma that are greasing them. Billions upon billions of risk free government dollars are being grabbed in a once in a lifetime pharma bonanza. A "drug" with no liability- paid for in full.
How do you measure this risk?

It doesn't seem like it's based on any science ...

What about that whole mutations thing you mentioned? No longer talking about mutations? Just dropping that whole wonky idea now?

These aren't even hard concepts... they're not difficult to understand, but rather in response it's a bunch of sorta shot gun facebook post / tweet type ideas wandering from one to the next without much thought put into either one.
 


Wally

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The main issue is that they are likely comparing people infected with the Delta variant to infections from the original because their comparison group was prevaccine.

Vaccine still prevents severe illness for the most part so this just means we reach herd immunity that much faster, good.
 




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