The Al Nolen excuse
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The-Real-Truth
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That point guard is back and MSU may not make the NCAA. I am not sure what you are trying to do here? Each team has a different game plan.
Go Gophers
If only Al Nolen had waited to break his foot two games away from the Final Four. And, if only the Gophers had Korie Lucious waiting to take over. Then, maybe it would have been an easier adaptation.
DontHassleTheHoff
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+1. Situations are not even close to being comparable.
+1. we had more than enough talent to go .500 after he went down.
Friend Of Tubby
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Then don't listen?
Gophers lost starting PG (Nolen) and back-up SG/PG (Joseph) in mid-season. Gophers also lost their highest rated frosh recruit (Walker) in OOC play back in December.
Kentucky was 22-8 this year. Take away starting PG (B Knight), back-up G (D Lamb) and highest rated post (frosh) recruit - T Jones - and what's their W-L record?
Friend Of Tubby
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Well stated. Hopefully well received, too.
GopherinPhilly
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Obviously we didn't dbag...the record is very clear.
The issue wasn't that Nolen broke his foot, it is that no one else on the team could be a functional PG in Big Ten play. In my mind that falls on Tubby for either making poor recruting decisions or being unable to get along with those players once they were on campus.
WILLBGOPHER
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Its not an excuse, just a fact. Check the records before and after.
I really think based on your thread about an overrated Sullinger that you are not very qualified to judge talent, dboy.
Mulligan
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His poor recruiting decision came about because the backup point guard transferred at the end of the year leaving Tubby to scramble. There wasn't a whole lot out there. How much responsibility Tubby should bear for Cobbs leaving, nobody will ever know. At the time, I don't recall anyone at all being concerned because we had Joseph. In the other case when a guy quits on his teammates in the middle of the season that says a whole lot more about Joseph than Tubby "being unable to get along." As things worked out, that's still the killer. We were left with a team comprised of flawed players. That made it much easier for teams to exploit those flaws both on offense and defense. Looking back, not that surprising we lost those games at the end.
WILLBGOPHER
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Well said. Not to mention Royce and Paul Carter. Primary recruiting hasn't been the problem, it's scrambling in the spring when someone transfers. Hopefully this will improve, and should be closely followed.
I'm not implying the Gophers should make the Final Four. Obviously last year's MSU team had more talent.
Just tired of this excuse. 6-12 is unacceptable for this team, even after the absence of Nolen and Joseph. To simply dismiss it due to an injury is foolish. It's not like Nolen is Magic Johnson or something. He was a decent point guard who had ups and downs his entire career.
Just tired of this excuse. 6-12 is unacceptable for this team, even after the absence of Nolen and Joseph. To simply dismiss it due to an injury is foolish. It's not like Nolen is Magic Johnson or something. He was a decent point guard who had ups and downs his entire career.
Excuse?
This team was not good enough to win without Nolen and Joseph. Period. I take the best two players off my youth team and we don't win. This is not rocket science; you win by having superior and complementary talent. The remainder of the Gophers roster was not complementary.
This team was not good enough to win without Nolen and Joseph. Period. I take the best two players off my youth team and we don't win. This is not rocket science; you win by having superior and complementary talent. The remainder of the Gophers roster was not complementary.
Ogee Ogilthorpe
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Soooooo, did that MSU team also lose a Devoe Joseph, a Moe Walker, and even somebody like Paul Carter who could have really helped out? Maybe somebody like a Cobbs as well?
Forget about what kind of player you think Nolen is. Forget about the fact that he's a senior PG with 4 years of BT experience.
If you look at it from a DEPTH perspective only, his absence cost the Gophers a few games on that reason alone, even if he were just a role player off the bench.
The "Nolen excuse" isn't just a big Nolen love-fest. It's just the biggest of many factors that contributed to a season-ending slide of epic proportions.
BarnBurner
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Devoe Joseph, maybe you've heard of him? Oh you haven't? He actually transfered after after his AAU coach told him he wouldn't make the league under Tubby and He wanted to accomplish individual goals.
Which of those reasons is on Tubby?
And no one is saying Al Nolen being hurt is why this team went 1-10. Even without Al, they should have won more games.
No, he had them here, they CHOSE to jump ship.
he was not POY..
swing and miss for you.. and station.. and all the other puppies following me around.... and hanging on my every word.
plus, i don't see many basketball posts by you.. or your other trollies.. just lame attempts at locker room humor.. its getting old, Dr.
block, take away a no-shooting PG with a loose handle and your 8th man... then tell me you don't win... ANYTHING??? plus the fact that two of the remaining kids on your youth team will be playing at Hopkins in the future..
you can't win with two hopkins-bounds kids and it's you they won't miss.
Portlandgopher
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I agree its not fair to compare the Gophers situation to the Spartans of last year.
Its been pointed out we didn't have a player similar to Lucious ability, so you compare us to the talent of Kentucky? The comparison between Nolen, Joseph and Walker to Knight(lottery pick), Lamb, and Jones(lottery pick) is downright absurd.
If Adam Weber got hurt for the football team and Cam Newton got hurt for Auburn, would that mean the gophers and Auburn would experience the same fate?
I get what your point and agree with it, I just found your example in the argument lacking.
knight can score, Al could not.. bigger loss for KU.
Lamb stays in the flow of the offense, Devoe does not... bigger loss for KU.
TJones was a starter, a top 10 NBA player... much bigger loss for KU.
BUT SAY KU does lose these kids... guaranteed they don't stand around on O and play keep-away.. and guaranteed they use their talent and run on stiff teams like northwestern, Penn state et. al.. Gophers? have NBA-level stand. nice coaching.
dboy says: 'nba talent is only nba talent when it is in motion'. <<< quote me.
I think a collection of you guys should show up and tell bigten coaches in general and Tubby in particular how to run an offense without anyone who can handle a basketball or shoot a jump shot.
That is like saying a football team can win without a competent QB, a baseball team can win without a competent pitcher, or a hockey team can win without a competent goalie. You can if you are absolutely loaded everywhere else, but point guard is the irreplaceable position on a bb team, and you can't fake it. You have at least a competetent one or you don't.
Tubby owns not having a competent replacement, but after the injury to Nolen with Joseph gone he was not going to win no matter what he did. I am surprised they were as competitive as they were. None of the guys on the team now were even good high school point guards. The situation is pathetic, but "coaching" is not the issue. Recruiting philosophy is the issue.
That is like saying a football team can win without a competent QB, a baseball team can win without a competent pitcher, or a hockey team can win without a competent goalie. You can if you are absolutely loaded everywhere else, but point guard is the irreplaceable position on a bb team, and you can't fake it. You have at least a competetent one or you don't.
Tubby owns not having a competent replacement, but after the injury to Nolen with Joseph gone he was not going to win no matter what he did. I am surprised they were as competitive as they were. None of the guys on the team now were even good high school point guards. The situation is pathetic, but "coaching" is not the issue. Recruiting philosophy is the issue.
I would start with not taking the 1 player who can shoot a jump shot and have him run the offense (which he can't do). Common sense says that one problem is better than two.
i would agree with you if:
1.) we had 25+ turnovers per game since Al went down.
2.) Al did something more in 'our offense' than just work the ball around the perimeter.
you act like Mav/chips/hoff cannot even get the ball past 1/2 court..
and you act like RS3 et al. brick everything?? everything? no one can even hit the rim?? then we should be scoring zero..
GophersInIowa
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Here's my opinion and I think most would agree:
1. Losing both Nolen and Joseph hurt us tremendously. We lose just one of them and we probably end the season with at least a few more wins and a trip to the tourney.
2. Al Nolen is not an all-conference type player or anything. His stats weren't anything to brag about. But he was very experienced at running our offense (which I think we sometimes undervalue), and was a leader on the floor. Hoffarber is a very good player and can't thank him enough for what he's done the past four years. But he's not an on-floor leader. Nolen took control when he was on the floor.
3. Even with us losing all these players, I don't think anyone expected us to lose 9 out of our last 10. I think pretty much everyone is disappointed with the way things have gone. I think most will agree that lots of people deserve some blame, including Tubby.
To me, this whole thing was like the perfect storm. Players transferring, getting hurt, and not developing like we'd hoped. Some can be blamed on Tubby and staff, some maybe on the players, and some just plain bad luck.
1. Losing both Nolen and Joseph hurt us tremendously. We lose just one of them and we probably end the season with at least a few more wins and a trip to the tourney.
2. Al Nolen is not an all-conference type player or anything. His stats weren't anything to brag about. But he was very experienced at running our offense (which I think we sometimes undervalue), and was a leader on the floor. Hoffarber is a very good player and can't thank him enough for what he's done the past four years. But he's not an on-floor leader. Nolen took control when he was on the floor.
3. Even with us losing all these players, I don't think anyone expected us to lose 9 out of our last 10. I think pretty much everyone is disappointed with the way things have gone. I think most will agree that lots of people deserve some blame, including Tubby.
To me, this whole thing was like the perfect storm. Players transferring, getting hurt, and not developing like we'd hoped. Some can be blamed on Tubby and staff, some maybe on the players, and some just plain bad luck.