Statistical look at Flip Saunders (this isn't a hate thread, I promise). . .

Donate To GopherHole
B

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
20,758
Reaction score
16,226
Points
113
I know a lot of people are real casual NBA fans or not NBA fans at all, so I wanted to give some insight to the kind of system that Flip ran in the NBA. This isn't an indictment on him. I've said that I think any system can work if it's run correctly and it has the right players. This is more to clear up some of the misconceptions floating around the board.

The website that I used is called basketball reference (great source for Advanced Stats in the NBA), and the three main categories that I looked at are three point attempts (3PA), free throw attempts (FTA) and PACE (possessions per 48 minutes). I went with PACE because this gives a good idea of whether or not he is an uptempo kind of coach.

I averaged out all of Flip's seasons in the NBA.

His teams averaged to be:
21st in the NBA in FTA
22nd in the NBA in 3PA
16th in the NBA in PACE

Essentially, the numbers show what some of us have been saying. Flip's system is pretty middle of the road as far pace of play. They aren't plodding but they aren't uptempo. His teams do not shoot many free throws (therefore likely aren't driving a lot) and they do not shoot many three pointers. The data suggests they are a jump shooting team, but not from behind the arc. I'd expect quite a bit of midrange jumpshots and a relatively average tempo.

Now, that's not saying that it won't work at all, his best seasons as a coach were 2003-2004 Twolves, 05-06 Detroit, 06-7 Detroit, and 07-08 Detroit.

In those seasons:
2004 Wolves: 26th in FTA, 27th in 3PA, and 21st in PACE
2006 Pistons: 25th in FTA, 10th in 3PA, and 29th in PACE
2007 Pistons: 22nd in FTA, 19th in 3PA, and 30th in PACE
2008 Pistons: 22nd in FTA, 22nd in 3PA, and 30th in PACE

So his best teams played really slow and shot a lot of midrange jump shots. So my saying that isn't to call it ineffective.


**A few more interesting trends, the Wolves shot a lot of free throws in his first few seasons when I looked at it, it became really clear. It was Googs, that man shot a TON of free throws and he continued to shoot a lot of free throws in Flip's system. When he was traded, Flip never had another team that finished higher than 22nd until his final season in Washington (most of the seasons were 25th +)


Again, this is not a flame thread. It's literally to give people a look at the kind of offense he ran in the NBA. He might change it here, who knows.
 

I'm a Flip fan, but I will admit that when he coached the Wolves we relied a lot more on jump shots than I prefer. Part of that is reliant upon who you have on your team, though, too. I did see that when he was tweeting during the Big Ten tournament, he complained quite a bit that we weren't getting into the lane and "below the free throw line" as he put it a few times. He will definitely need shooters to be successful. But so does Crean. And Izzo. And Ryan.
 

Hates Monikers said:
I'm a Flip fan, but I will admit that when he coached the Wolves we relied a lot more on jump shots than I prefer. Part of that is reliant upon who you have on your team, though, too. I did see that when he was tweeting during the Big Ten tournament, he complained quite a bit that we weren't getting into the lane and "below the free throw line" as he put it a few times. He will definitely need shooters to be successful. But so does Crean. And Izzo. And Ryan.
Click to expand...

Yep, this thread really isn't a complaint. We need more shooters regardless of who our next coach is.
 

This does a lot to answer my question in another thread about what type of in-game coach Flip is. Thanks, Bob.

Any insight into what type of defensive coach he is? I'd look it up myself, but I have a busy night ahead.
 

920/414 Gopher said:
This does a lot to answer my question in another thread about what type of in-game coach Flip is. Thanks, Bob.

Any insight into what type of defensive coach he is? I'd look it up myself, but I have a busy night ahead.
Click to expand...

Off the top of my head, he does an OK job. He had a really good defensive team in Detroit and KG makes every team much better defensively. So when he had the pieces, his teams played decent defense, I'll look into the statistical stuff in a couple minutes.
 


920/414 Gopher said:
This does a lot to answer my question in another thread about what type of in-game coach Flip is. Thanks, Bob.

Any insight into what type of defensive coach he is? I'd look it up myself, but I have a busy night ahead.
Click to expand...

I can't comment on any specifics, but he tweeted after the UCLA game that he's a big fan of switching up defenses to keep the other team guessing
 

MinneStoa said:
I can't comment on any specifics, but he tweeted after the UCLA game that he's a big fan of switching up defenses to keep the other team guessing
Click to expand...

Yeah, he didn't do much of it in the NBA. By the time it was allowed in the NBA (2001), he would have been a fool for implementing it. He had KG (best defender in the league) and then he coached the Pistons (a team built for man to man. Generally, the zone also kind of stinks in the NBA, they're too good of shooters.

But it wouldn't surprise me if he played a bit of it in college.
 


Hey Bob, while you are at it, why don't you go look up to see where the Timberwolves would have finished had they played in the Eastern Conf during all of Flips seasons as coach of the Timberwolves.


And then, since it would STILL be skewed by the fact that we played more games vs Western Teams than Eastern Teams, why don't you look up to see how the Timberwolves did, individually, vs ALL of the Eastern teams during Flip's tenure.


I know you hate Flip, and have made it your mission to do anything and everything to bash Flip and convince as many people as you can that Flip was a horrible coach, so I am sure you will NOT do this. Because you are a hater. Plain and simple, you are the one and only consistent and diehard and obsessed Flip basher on this site. I have NO faith in you. I do not think that you care about the truth, only about succeeding in your mission to make Flip look bad. So I am very convinced that you will ignore my requests to go and look into those stats.


I think you are a hater Bob. Now go and prove me wrong by ignoring my request.
 



#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Hey Bob, while you are at it, why don't you go look up to see where the Timberwolves would have finished had they played in the Eastern Conf during all of Flips seasons as coach of the Timberwolves.


And then, since it would STILL be skewed by the fact that we played more games vs Western Teams than Eastern Teams, why don't you look up to see how the Timberwolves did, individually, vs ALL of the Eastern teams during Flip's tenure.


I know you hate Flip, and have made it your mission to do anything and everything to bash Flip and convince as many people as you can that Flip was a horrible coach, so I am sure you will NOT do this. Because you are a hater. Plain and simple, you are the one and only consistent and diehard and obsessed Flip basher on this site. I have NO faith in you. I do not think that you care about the truth, only about succeeding in your mission to make Flip look bad. So I am very convinced that you will ignore my requests to go and look into those stats.


I think you are a hater Bob. Now go and prove me wrong by ignoring my request.
Click to expand...


Be honest, you didn't read my post at all when I wrote this did you? I didn't bash Flip once in the entire thread.
 

I'm certainly no expert on Flip's X's and O's on the defensive end when he was in the NBA, but you can change up defenses without playing zone. There's a lot of concepts you can play under the man umbrella.
 

Gophers09 said:
I'm certainly no expert on Flip's X's and O's on the defensive end when he was in the NBA, but you can change up defenses without playing zone. There's a lot of concepts you can play under the man umbrella.
Click to expand...

Yeah, his teams were all pretty similar in MN. When you have KG, he can sort of do everything. They'd do what you'd expect them to do. If they ran pick and roll on KG's guy, they played it really aggressively. KG never really played with a shot blocker and they had to double quite a bit, so it seemed like he gave up a lot of threes here. He didn't seem to in Detroit, he had a fantastic defensive team.

In the NBA, I think there is a little less mixing it up, even amongst the different ways of manning up.

He did fine on the defensive end. When he had the guys, his defenses were good. We had some huge matchup problems against teams who spread us out, but that seemed more to do with the fact that KG was our best defender and our only helpside defender, so it put us in a pickle a lot. That's not on Flip, that was on the squad though.
 

None of us really have a clue what Flip's strategy will be in college. He could try to do the same things he did in the NBA, or he could do something completely different. I think for the seasons Bob mentioned, Flip did what he had to do considering the players he had. KG has never been a player to draw a lot of contact, his best offense was his mid-range game. Sam Cassell was an outstanding mid-range shooter but not as good from 3. Sprewell was similar. Wally was a shooter, not a slasher. He took over a Pistons squad that had Rip Hamilton, maybe the best mid-range shooter in the game at the time. Billups' best asset is his shot, and Rasheed Wallace was a good mid-range player.

Did I read somewhere on this forum that Fred Hoiberg uses some of the same offensive sets that Flip likes to run? Iowa State takes a ton of 3's.

If Flip gets the job I'm sure a question he'll be asked at his press conference is what offense he'll run. My guess is that Flip will say with the current squad, he'll adapt his system to fit their strengths. Long term I believe he'll want a team with good guards who can dribble drive and hit open shots (3's). That's my guess, I could be wrong.

Thanks for putting together these stats Bob, pretty interesting stuff.
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
Be honest, you didn't read my post at all when I wrote this did you? I didn't bash Flip once in the entire thread.
Click to expand...



Yeah, I read it BOB. EVERY SINGLE WORD of it.

You are very sneaky and try to disguish your bashings of Flip with sh1t about how you hope you are wrong, if he gets hired you hope he does well, and all of that crap. And as a Gophers fan, well, WHAT THE HELL, I'd hope you would hope for the best if he got hired?! Am I supposed to give you a medal for that?! But its obvious to MANY of us,


You HATE Flip, its so obvious, I am just one of at least a dozen posters who have pointed this out, who are annoyed by you, who all have accepted the fact that you HATE Flip. We all know that, full well, yet you persist, and its annoying. Nothing has annoyed me as much as your constant ragging on Flip.


I've read DOZENS of other posters comments, who were NOT pro-Flip, and some of them were even very anti-Flip, but you know what? They were just single comments. They said their piece and that was it. And I respect their opinions. I do not feel someone has to like Flip to have my respect.


But not BOB. Bob's on a friggin mission. If I was Ryan, I'd be getting my posse together and I'd be out looking for your ash to give you a beating worthy of making Rodney King jealous.

But then again, Ryan has a life and better things to do than worry about your WORTHLESS opinion of him or his father.



Dude, I read your entire post. I have read ALL of your posts in the threads I've visited at least.



Did you read mine?! Are you going to rise to the challenge I presented to you?

Or are you A CHICKEN????
 

Flip's Wolves teams definitely played some zone, and did so with success.
 

jaymil said:
None of us really have a clue what Flip's strategy will be in college. He could try to do the same things he did in the NBA, or he could do something completely different. I think for the seasons Bob mentioned, Flip did what he had to do considering the players he had. KG has never been a player to draw a lot of contact, his best offense was his mid-range game. Sam Cassell was an outstanding mid-range shooter but not as good from 3. Sprewell was similar. Wally was a shooter, not a slasher. He took over a Pistons squad that had Rip Hamilton, maybe the best mid-range shooter in the game at the time. Billups' best asset is his shot, and Rasheed Wallace was a good mid-range player.

Did I read somewhere on this forum that Fred Hoiberg uses some of the same offensive sets that Flip likes to run? Iowa State takes a ton of 3's.

If Flip gets the job I'm sure a question he'll be asked at his press conference is what offense he'll run. My guess is that Flip will say with the current squad, he'll adapt his system to fit their strengths. Long term I believe he'll want a team with good guards who can dribble drive and hit open shots (3's). That's my guess, I could be wrong.


Thanks for putting together these stats Bob, pretty interesting stuff.
Click to expand...


And it seems those are the kinds of teams that do well in the Big Dance? Right?! Teams with good gaurds who can shoot?!
 

Hates Monikers said:
I'm a Flip fan, but I will admit that when he coached the Wolves we relied a lot more on jump shots than I prefer. Part of that is reliant upon who you have on your team, though, too. I did see that when he was tweeting during the Big Ten tournament, he complained quite a bit that we weren't getting into the lane and "below the free throw line" as he put it a few times. He will definitely need shooters to be successful. But so does Crean. And Izzo. And Ryan.
Click to expand...

Terrell Brandon.
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Yeah, I read it BOB. EVERY SINGLE WORD of it.

You are very sneaky and try to disguish your bashings of Flip with sh1t about how you hope you are wrong, if he gets hired you hope he does well, and all of that crap. And as a Gophers fan, well, WHAT THE HELL, I'd hope you would hope for the best if he got hired?! Am I supposed to give you a medal for that?! But its obvious to MANY of us,


You HATE Flip, its so obvious, I am just one of at least a dozen posters who have pointed this out, who are annoyed by you, who all have accepted the fact that you HATE Flip. We all know that, full well, yet you persist, and its annoying. Nothing has annoyed me as much as your constant ragging on Flip.


I've read DOZENS of other posters comments, who were NOT pro-Flip, and some of them were even very anti-Flip, but you know what? They were just single comments. They said their piece and that was it. And I respect their opinions. I do not feel someone has to like Flip to have my respect.


But not BOB. Bob's on a friggin mission. If I was Ryan, I'd be getting my posse together and I'd be out looking for your ash to give you a beating worthy of making Rodney King jealous.

But then again, Ryan has a life and better things to do than worry about your WORTHLESS opinion of him or his father.



Dude, I read your entire post. I have read ALL of your posts in the threads I've visited at least.



Did you read mine?! Are you going to rise to the challenge I presented to you?

Or are you A CHICKEN????
Click to expand...

It was not about what Flip does bad. If you read the thread and that is the conclusion that you came to, you're delusional. I pointed out that his BEST teams shot few 3PA, FTA and played slow. That should have maybe lit off something in that half functioning brain of yours that I AM NOT saying that playing slow is bad. I said I wanted Anthony Grant, his teams play slow. I wanted Brad Stevens, his teams play slow. I would NEVER say that playing slow is a bad thing. So nice try, but you're an effing moron.

As far as Ryan Saunders beating me up? Ha. Are you serious? You want Ryan Saunders to read a message board and find a guy who said that his dad's teams played slow and have him and his friends beat me up? Are you a real person? That's one of the most delusional, nonsensical statements ANYONE has ever said on this board. You're officially a Pantherhawk type of nutcase. . . wow.

So you want me to do legwork on something that has nothing to do with this thread? What does his record against the Eastern Conference have anything to do with his STYLE of offense? Nothing! There are great teams who play slow and great teams who play fast. It has nothing to do with anything in this entire thread. If you want to do it and start another thread titled "Flip Dominated the Lousy Eastern Conference in the Late 90's and Early 2000's" have your PCA help you with the computer and do it yourself. It has nothing to do with anything in this thread.

You're a weirdo, honestly.
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
And it seems those are the kinds of teams that do well in the Big Dance? Right?! Teams with good gaurds who can shoot?!
Click to expand...

Yep and I wasn't saying his style didn't work you delusional moron. I was saying that his teams shoot a lot of midrange jump shots (or they did in the NBA). I even pointed out that his BEST teams did that MORE than his worst teams. Buy a clue you weirdo.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
It was not about what Flip does bad. If you read the thread and that is the conclusion that you came to, you're delusional. I pointed out that his BEST teams shot few 3PA, FTA and played slow. That should have maybe lit off something in that half functioning brain of yours that I AM NOT saying that playing slow is bad. I said I wanted Anthony Grant, his teams play slow. I wanted Brad Stevens, his teams play slow. I would NEVER say that playing slow is a bad thing. So nice try, but you're an effing moron.

As far as Ryan Saunders beating me up? Ha. Are you serious? You want Ryan Saunders to read a message board and find a guy who said that his dad's teams played slow and have him and his friends beat me up? Are you a real person? That's one of the most delusional, nonsensical statements ANYONE has ever said on this board. You're officially a Pantherhawk type of nutcase. . . wow.

So you want me to do legwork on something that has nothing to do with this thread? What does his record against the Eastern Conference have anything to do with his STYLE of offense? Nothing! There are great teams who play slow and great teams who play fast. It has nothing to do with anything in this entire thread. If you want to do it and start another thread titled "Flip Dominated the Lousy Eastern Conference in the Late 90's and Early 2000's" have your PCA help you with the computer and do it yourself. It has nothing to do with anything in this thread.

You're a weirdo, honestly.
Click to expand...

Big time!! Man must seem someone pretty regularly.

I thought when the ZONE rule changed, Flip used it as much as pretty much anyone.
 

To win in college basketball an offense must be efficient at the rim, at the free-throw line, and behind the three-point line. Flip will need to make changes if he wants to succeed in the college game.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I know a lot of people are real casual NBA fans or not NBA fans at all, so I wanted to give some insight to the kind of system that Flip ran in the NBA. This isn't an indictment on him. I've said that I think any system can work if it's run correctly and it has the right players. This is more to clear up some of the misconceptions floating around the board.

The website that I used is called basketball reference (great source for Advanced Stats in the NBA), and the three main categories that I looked at are three point attempts (3PA), free throw attempts (FTA) and PACE (possessions per 48 minutes). I went with PACE because this gives a good idea of whether or not he is an uptempo kind of coach.

I averaged out all of Flip's seasons in the NBA.

His teams averaged to be:
21st in the NBA in FTA
22nd in the NBA in 3PA
16th in the NBA in PACE

Essentially, the numbers show what some of us have been saying. Flip's system is pretty middle of the road as far pace of play. They aren't plodding but they aren't uptempo. His teams do not shoot many free throws (therefore likely aren't driving a lot) and they do not shoot many three pointers. The data suggests they are a jump shooting team, but not from behind the arc. I'd expect quite a bit of midrange jumpshots and a relatively average tempo.

Now, that's not saying that it won't work at all, his best seasons as a coach were 2003-2004 Twolves, 05-06 Detroit, 06-7 Detroit, and 07-08 Detroit.

In those seasons:
2004 Wolves: 26th in FTA, 27th in 3PA, and 21st in PACE
2006 Pistons: 25th in FTA, 10th in 3PA, and 29th in PACE
2007 Pistons: 22nd in FTA, 19th in 3PA, and 30th in PACE
2008 Pistons: 22nd in FTA, 22nd in 3PA, and 30th in PACE

So his best teams played really slow and shot a lot of midrange jump shots. So my saying that isn't to call it ineffective.


**A few more interesting trends, the Wolves shot a lot of free throws in his first few seasons when I looked at it, it became really clear. It was Googs, that man shot a TON of free throws and he continued to shoot a lot of free throws in Flip's system. When he was traded, Flip never had another team that finished higher than 22nd until his final season in Washington (most of the seasons were 25th +)


Again, this is not a flame thread. It's literally to give people a look at the kind of offense he ran in the NBA. He might change it here, who knows.
Click to expand...

A few thoughts:

The Pistons team that Flip took over was at/near the bottom of the league in PACE for a few years prior to Flip's arrival. I think it was clearly a case where the personnel of the Pistons was made for a slow pace.

I think you can also point to personnel as the part of the reason why Flips teams took so many jumpers. In Minnesota, he had Kevin Garnett at the 4 and Terrell Brandon/Sam Cassell (and others) at the point. In Detroit, Flip had Rasheed Wallace at the 4 and Chauncey Billups at the point. In both cases, he had a 4 man who shot jumpers and a PG who shot jumpers. At neither stop did Flip have a Center who was a big offensive threat in the post. Also Flip coached both Rip Hamilton and Wally Sczcerbiak who had unusual games. Both players are probably best known for their shooting stroke, but neither made their living beyond the 3 point line.

I would guess Flip would not base a college offense around mid range jumpers when you consider that the court is so congested due to the shorter 3 point line. If anything you could argue that an NBA mid range jumper is of similar distance to the college 3 and that if Flip employed a similar offensive style his teams would shoot a lot of 3's in college.

I think one of the concerns about Flip is that he had one of the largest playbooks in the NBA and he'd have to vastly cut down on the amount of sets he'd expect his players to be able to run.
 

Using the same website as the original poster, you will see Flip's teams were often near the top of the NBA in points per 100 possessions (PP100) - which is basically a measure of offensive efficiency.

From 1996 (Flip's first full year as coach of the T'wolves) through 2008 (the end of his run with the Pistons), a period of 12 seasons, Flip's teams finished in the top third of the league for PP100 nine times and were only twice below average (his first full year with the wolves and his third full year). While Flip's teams were undoubtedly reliant on jump shots (which I remember being a criticism of the team during their string of first round playoff exits), there is no denying that during this stretch his teams were very efficient on the offensive end (at least during the regular season).

His teams in Washington were another story - where in his two full years his teams were 25th and 28th in PP100 respectively.... Guess that's what happens when you are running an offense through Andray Blatche instead of KG.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yep and I wasn't saying his style didn't work you delusional moron. I was saying that his teams shoot a lot of midrange jump shots (or they did in the NBA). I even pointed out that his BEST teams did that MORE than his worst teams. Buy a clue you weirdo.
Click to expand...


Delusional moron?? FU Bob. You are a hater, You've been pointed out as being such by multiple posters. So you can call me delusional all you want, I don't care. Because you are nothing but a hater.
 

He also was one of the better coaches turnover-wise. I believe his teams led the NBA in fewest turnovers a few times.
 

Haha-Bob's always been a D-bag. He knows everything, about everything. I've had my share of disagreements with him. No sense on wasting anymore time on him and move on.
 


#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Delusional moron?? FU Bob. You are a hater, You've been pointed out as being such by multiple posters. So you can call me delusional all you want, I don't care. Because you are nothing but a hater.
Click to expand...

Bob didn't say a bad word about Flip or Ryan anywhere in this thread. Actually, he complimented him on his great defenses and that his best teams shot the ball well from the mid-range. Seems like you are the hater here...
 

Gopherocious said:
Bob didn't say a bad word about Flip or Ryan anywhere in this thread. Actually, he complimented him on his great defenses and that his best teams shot the ball well from the mid-range. Seems like you are the hater here...
Click to expand...


No, Bob has toned down his tune, LATELY, but for awhile there he definitely was acting like a hater. I'm not the only one who noticed this. Just a few posts back, some guy says that Bob's been a D-bag for a long time. I'm not even saying I agree with that, because I at least respect that Bob's seemingly changing his tune. So obviously its not just me noticing this. I'm not a hater, but I will DEFEND someone being attacked, constantly and repeatedly in numerous threads. When I only come in after he's made dozens of posts attacking Flip, I'm obviously NOT the hater.
 

mcal24 said:
He also was one of the better coaches turnover-wise. I believe his teams led the NBA in fewest turnovers a few times.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that is one thing I liked about some of his teams. They didn't turn it over. I know the TWolves led the league as least twice in fewest turnovers. (Regardless who the next coach is, Gophers have to cut down on the freakin' turnovers.)
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom