Sports, the last meritocracy

KillerGopherFan

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Choice

This would accelerate inequity, kids from more productive home cultures would further widen the gaps.
So what you’re saying is that freedom of choice and accountability assures inequity and different outcomes.

The fallacy of that is that when people are being guaranteed an outcome by the government (graduation and a degree), some won’t work harder to achieve and society will suffer and decline overall, but a only few will choose to achieve better outcomes.

It’s the human condition.

Fortunately, in reality, if people aren’t guaranteed a minimal outcome, they will work harder to excel and achieve success. With the exception of a few, individuals will attempt to achieve to their highest level of success. The human condition doesn’t give us all equal talents and ability, so inequity will occur in a meritocracy, but the vast majority of individuals and the society as a whole will thrive and succeed.

So the question is, do will eliminate meritocracy to spare the few individuals b/c some will chose not to achieve or will cheat (commit crime) to the detriment of the vast majority OR allow the vast majority to achieve their highest level of success by giving them unlimited opportunity while a small minority will fail b/c they refuse to contribute to their success and society?
 

Section2

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Choice

This would accelerate inequity, kids from more productive home cultures would further widen the gaps.
I disagree. There are plenty of kids in poverty who have enough home support to succeed but the culture and the school fail them.
I think of it like this: you currently have a school that fails to educate nearly all of its students. If even 25% of them could succeed in a better school, that would narrow the gap. And maybe there’s an alternative school or training program that could achieve better results for the 75%. But we are focusing on college for all. We don’t need it. There’s definite a better way.
 

GoldenRodents

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So what you’re saying is that freedom of choice and accountability assures inequity and different outcomes.

The fallacy of that is that when people are being guaranteed an outcome by the government (graduation and a degree), some won’t work harder to achieve and society will suffer and decline overall, but a only few will choose to achieve better outcomes.

It’s the human condition.

Fortunately, in reality, if people aren’t guaranteed a minimal outcome, they will work harder to excel and achieve success. With the exception of a few, individuals will attempt to achieve to their highest level of success. The human condition doesn’t give us all equal talents and ability, so inequity will occur in a meritocracy, but the vast majority of individuals and the society as a whole will thrive and succeed.

So the question is, do will eliminate meritocracy to spare the few individuals b/c some will chose not to achieve or will cheat (commit crime) to the detriment of the vast majority OR allow the vast majority to achieve their highest level of success by giving them unlimited opportunity while a small minority will fail b/c they refuse to contribute to their success and society?
You may no have detected my sarcasm. You are absolutely right.

Vastly unequal outcomes are woven into the fabric of the universe. These "Equity" mandates will only corrupt existing hierarchies, the outcomes will remain vastly unequal.
 

GoldenRodents

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I disagree. There are plenty of kids in poverty who have enough home support to succeed but the culture and the school fail them.
I think of it like this: you currently have a school that fails to educate nearly all of its students. If even 25% of them could succeed in a better school, that would narrow the gap. And maybe there’s an alternative school or training program that could achieve better results for the 75%. But we are focusing on college for all. We don’t need it. There’s definite a better way.
You stuck the landing here about college. My thesis is that college should be a hi I Q high conscientiousness operation. A person with average IQ can struggle mightly to keep up with someone with 115. They will probably develop themselves by going to work right out of high-school.

We can identify children with high IQ. They should be identified and sent to accelerated classes that truly challenge them. But that is not enough. Preparing a child for Medicine, Law or Engineering is not easy, and even intelligent parents fail today. In Math there is no progress without daily progress. Their is simply near zero hope that any more than a few single moms will maintain this home study discipline from K to 12.

The only hope is to reconstitue the nuclear family. People need to be informed that making sexual mistakes creates life long troubles extending into generations
 

golf

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Biden administration is gearing up to push critical race theory in our public schools. Good news for biden team i suppose is that strongest students wont need as much time to study math, so will have more time to study how evil is america.

 
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Goldboy

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Grade inflation is nothing new. IIRC, I read an article a year or so ago that in order to be in the top 10% of your class at Eden Prairie, you need above a 4.0 (i.e. all As & in honors classes).
Yeah My mom has been teaching for about 40 years and thats what she has said. A lot of pressure to have higher grades for college admissions.
 

KillerGopherFan

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You may no have detected my sarcasm. You are absolutely right.

Vastly unequal outcomes are woven into the fabric of the universe. These "Equity" mandates will only corrupt existing hierarchies, the outcomes will remain vastly unequal.
It was one helluva impression a lefty post. You had me fooled.

I’ll have to read more of your posts.

Still..a good lesson for the lefties that do post it seriously.
 

Section2

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You stuck the landing here about college. My thesis is that college should be a hi I Q high conscientiousness operation. A person with average IQ can struggle mightly to keep up with someone with 115. They will probably develop themselves by going to work right out of high-school.

We can identify children with high IQ. They should be identified and sent to accelerated classes that truly challenge them. But that is not enough. Preparing a child for Medicine, Law or Engineering is not easy, and even intelligent parents fail today. In Math there is no progress without daily progress. Their is simply near zero hope that any more than a few single moms will maintain this home study discipline from K to 12.

The only hope is to reconstitue the nuclear family. People need to be informed that making sexual mistakes creates life long troubles extending into generations
While I don’t believe in college for all as a goal, I do believe in the opportunity for all, even with average intelligence. Work ethic and attitude are far better predictors than IQ IMO.

government administered programs to identify and promote certain kids based on standardized tests seems like a bad idea, and one that can be abused.
 

GoldenRodents

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While I don’t believe in college for all as a goal, I do believe in the opportunity for all, even with average intelligence. Work ethic and attitude are far better predictors than IQ IMO.

government administered programs to identify and promote certain kids based on standardized tests seems like a bad idea, and one that can be abused.
China, Russia. France, Germany do it. There has been massive amounts of IQ research, much by the US military. They have a mimimum IQ they will allow for enlisted men, below which they are untrainable.

Attitude and hard work only take one so far. its cruel to impart impossible dreams

The current system is abusive to the population.
 



Section2

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China, Russia. France, Germany do it. There has been massive amounts of IQ research, much by the US military. They have a mimimum IQ they will allow for enlisted men, below which they are untrainable.

Attitude and hard work only take one so far. its cruel to impart impossible dreams

The current system is abusive to the population.
I couldn’t disagree more. I’ve worked with a lot of highly intelligent people. A lot of them were not that successful. There are other intangibles that matter as much or more. Sure, if you’re saying a 70 IQ or something, fine. But if you’re trying to sort and manage kids based on some tests? No. That kind of power is too dangerous to hand to government.
the most successful people in history have one thing in common and it isn’t IQ.
 

Slim Tubby

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Book smarts will never guarantee financial success as an adult but it can be a very early indicator. Ambition, drive and a fear of failure can easily overcome the inability to comprehend Calculus in high school.

As for the OP and thread topic, it disgusts me. We should be doing everything in our power to expedite academic greatness among our youth, not drag them down with others less gifted or driven.

Life isn’t fair but stunting the growth of the gifted to placate the “feelings” of the lesser in the name of “equality” is a cowardly way of admitting defeat.

I’m so tired of seeing hard working, successful people have to foot the bill for the lazy. We’re not all created equal and we don’t all deserve trophies.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe

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Book smarts will never guarantee financial success as an adult but it can be a very early indicator. Ambition, drive and a fear of failure can easily overcome the inability to comprehend Calculus in high school.

As for the OP and thread topic, it disgusts me. We should be doing everything in our power to expedite academic greatness among our youth, not drag them down with others less gifted or driven.

Life isn’t fair but stunting the growth of the gifted to placate the “feelings” of the lesser in the name of “equality” is a cowardly way of admitting defeat.

I’m so tired of seeing hard working, successful people have to foot the bill for the lazy. We’re not all created equal and we don’t all deserve trophies.
HARRUMPH!!Unknown-2.jpeg
 

GoldenRodents

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I couldn’t disagree more. I’ve worked with a lot of highly intelligent people. A lot of them were not that successful. There are other intangibles that matter as much or more. Sure, if you’re saying a 70 IQ or something, fine. But if you’re trying to sort and manage kids based on some tests? No. That kind of power is too dangerous to hand to government.
the most successful people in history have one thing in common and it isn’t IQ.
Actually, IQ is the most powerful predictive variable in social science, what you are talking about is the trait of conscientiousness which is also highly predictive of success. A guy like Elon Musk has huge amounts of both. There are certain jobs that are IQ dependent: Engineers need to solve problems that require an IQ of 120. Copier salesman need an IQ of 100. I know a guy that got rich selling copiers, he then moved to real estate investment and today is 8 figures.
 



justthefacts

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KillerGopherFan

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Section2

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Actually, IQ is the most powerful predictive variable in social science, what you are talking about is the trait of conscientiousness which is also highly predictive of success. A guy like Elon Musk has huge amounts of both. There are certain jobs that are IQ dependent: Engineers need to solve problems that require an IQ of 120. Copier salesman need an IQ of 100. I know a guy that got rich selling copiers, he then moved to real estate investment and today is 8 figures.
You continue to skirt around my main objection to your idea, which I’ve typed like 4 times.
 

GoldenRodents

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You continue to skirt around my main objection to your idea, which I’ve typed like 4 times.
Sorry to try your patience. I believe you are failing to decompose the markers for future success, which are ...
IQ,
Conscientiousness
Father in the home
Non-agreeableness
wealth
Height
Beauty
Sex
Race

Notice I mentioned race last, that's because discrimination exists, but has far less impact than the rest.
 
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FormerFatOL

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Sorry to try your patience. I believe you are failing to decompose the markers for future success, which are ...
IQ,
Conscientiousness
Father in the home
Non-agreeableness
wealth
Height
Beauty
Sex
Race

Notice I mentioned race last, that's because discrimination exists, but has far less impact than the rest.

Well, I'm tall and non-agreeable, so I got that going for me, which is nice.
 
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Section2

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Sorry to try your patience. I believe you are failing to decompose the markers for future success, which are ...
IQ,
Conscientiousness
Father in the home
Non-agreeableness
wealth
Height
Beauty
Sex
Race

Notice I mentioned race last, that's because discrimination exists, but has far less impact than the rest.
I don’t disagree. Where I disagree is putting government in charge of sorting and identifying and determining which path to put individuals on. Especially in this climate of equity obsession, that job is going to be abused.

why not let individuals choose? If based on IQ, some or many individuals are not going to be able to compete, why does government need to decide for them and take away their chance to compete? When I think of low IQ, I think of people who it would take 3 hours to complete an assignment that a smarter person might finish in an hour. If they are willing to put in the extra time, they will have a large advantage over a lazy smart person.
Off high horse now.
 

GoldenRodents

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I don’t disagree. Where I disagree is putting government in charge of sorting and identifying and determining which path to put individuals on. Especially in this climate of equity obsession, that job is going to be abused.

why not let individuals choose? If based on IQ, some or many individuals are not going to be able to compete, why does government need to decide for them and take away their chance to compete? When I think of low IQ, I think of people who it would take 3 hours to complete an assignment that a smarter person might finish in an hour. If they are willing to put in the extra time, they will have a large advantage over a lazy smart person.
Off high horse now.
Yeah, and now they're getting dispensation for ADD and massive tutoring support while they drop standards so that the weak can "compete".

I am talking about massive reform that would make it nearly impossible to field a football team. Drastically reduce college enrollment, heavily fund training in trades, etc. No more dumping billions on the many so a tiny few can change their arc.
 

Wally

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My daughter was getting A's in accelerated Math in public school. She was two years ahead of the average child. But I would notice how little homework she had. I know from personal experience that to master Algebra and Trigonometry you either need to put in hours of disciplined work on a weekly basis, yet my daughter was breezing through her 4 problems a night. In 10th grade we switched her to a private school, They really stacked on the work in every area, and she could no longer keep up with Pre-Calculus. She had to drop it. She was mortified.

That tells me she wasn't really earning her A's in public school, they intentionally dropped their standards which made the children, the teacher and the school look better than they actually are. That is a fraud.

I had Calculus in high school and it was essentially a joke, def had to retake it in college.
 

Wally

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The only hope is to reconstitue the nuclear family. People need to be informed that making sexual mistakes creates life long troubles extending into generations
Or more abortions...
 

Section2

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Yeah, and now they're getting dispensation for ADD and massive tutoring support while they drop standards so that the weak can "compete".

I am talking about massive reform that would make it nearly impossible to field a football team. Drastically reduce college enrollment, heavily fund training in trades, etc. No more dumping billions on the many so a tiny few can change their arc.
The cure for bad policy is not more policy. It’s to eliminate the bad policy.
 

GoldenRodents

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Or more abortions...
@Wally, abortion erodes the character that communities depend on for productive happiness, as does any sexual sin. The only answer is a return to Christian sexual ethics. Intellectuals and elites hate this, but their answers don't scale to the middle class and below. Thus we have townhouses and condos by the thousands filled with single moms and their fatherless children.
 


STPGopher

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Book smarts will never guarantee financial success as an adult but it can be a very early indicator. Ambition, drive and a fear of failure can easily overcome the inability to comprehend Calculus in high school.

As for the OP and thread topic, it disgusts me. We should be doing everything in our power to expedite academic greatness among our youth, not drag them down with others less gifted or driven.

Life isn’t fair but stunting the growth of the gifted to placate the “feelings” of the lesser in the name of “equality” is a cowardly way of admitting defeat.

I’m so tired of seeing hard working, successful people have to foot the bill for the lazy. We’re not all created equal and we don’t all deserve trophies.
5oK3hHU.gif
 








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