Souhan: Fleck might have been the worst thing to happen to Pitino's career.

[BleedGopher]

per Souhan:

Fleck might have been the worst thing to happen to Pitino's career.

In Fleck, Coyle was able to hire the perceived best young football coach available, and Fleck produced a historic season that fulfilled at least some of his more realistic promises. Fleck, at least for one impressive season, pushed aside all of the excuses Gophers football coaches have been reasonably offering for decades.

Why we should remember Richard Pitino as an overachiever in Minnesota

Pitino won only 36% of his Big Ten games, which sounds terrible unless you consider modern Gophers basketball history.

www.startribune.com

Go Gophers!!

 

[#2Gopher]

I'm sure Fleck's success didn't help Pitino as to recruiting success. However as to coaching, that's on Pitino.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

Losing games is what hurt Pitino.

The rest of the idea here is elementary school spin...

Next theory will be that Pitino didn't answer quickly enough during an interview if he "like liked" Lindsay Whalen....

 

[LesBolstad]

Below average recruiting and well below average bench coaching did him in.

 

[TurfGopher]

I don't really blame him too much for the local recruiting misses. Mckinley Wright and Jericho Sims would have been nice gets but many others (Tyus, Tre, Rashad, Suggs, & Hurt) were not going to come here. He pulled in ok talent, although several players did not work out.

He failed to inspire & motivate the players during crunch time. Failed to make in game changes that win close games. PJ has more experience as a successful coach and player and the gets the respect of his players. Richard is likeable but he didn't play basketball at a high level. His game time demeanor is awful. I don't see how the players can fully buy into his schtick. He is a classic nepotism case, hired because of his father is a great coach, and he wasn't ready for it.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

He failed to inspire & motivate the players during crunch time. Failed to make in game changes that win close games.

That's my thing too. Those down streaks just looked ... like he couldn't reach those kids... and they lasted a long time.

Maybe he gains that latter, but that is what worried me.

Those "man why is the team so down right now" concerns remind me of my concerns about Mike Zimmer's teams ... obviously less lengthy bad streaks but still at odd times the team seems just checked out / unmotivated...

That's not a problem for PJ for sure.

 

[Plato]

If Fleck's recruits do not preform up to expectations and it is a mediocre year with losses to traditional rivals he will not be perceived as a "threat" to the new BB coach.

 

[tmvander]

A successful football program should put more spotlight on a University and therefore potentially help another program. Don't see how in any way a solid football program would hurt recruiting or Pitino's ability to coach in the slightest.

 

[NorthernLakesGopher]

I think what Souhan is implying is that Fleck's success on and off the field put more pressure on Pitino to perform. If Fleck hadn't had early success, Souhan is saying he likely would have had a longer leash. Coyle's quote in today's presser about not coming to Minnesota to be .500 tells me otherwise.

 

[Bayfieldgopher]

Hogwash from Souhan. RP and PJ each do their own thing independent of each other. Skeptics were on to RP long before PJ arrived.

 

[MNVCGUY]

I think what Souhan is implying is that Fleck's success on and off the field put more pressure on Pitino to perform. If Fleck hadn't had early success, Souhan is saying he likely would have had a longer leash. Coyle's quote in today's presser about not coming to Minnesota to be .500 tells me otherwise.

Didn't read the story but I don't buy the premise of the headline at all. Coyle inherited Pitino. He gave him a few years to get things going and Pitino got 8 years overall. This isn't a case of pulling the plug quickly. The level of success Pitino had in the Big Ten was not good enough to ensure him some long tenure at the school.

I think Pitino would be the first to tell you he was given a fair shot. There were things that happened that were out of his control but after 8 years the program has not made any significant gains from where it was when he took over. Time to try something different.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

I don't really blame him too much for the local recruiting misses. Mckinley Wright and Jericho Sims would have been nice gets but many others (Tyus, Tre, Rashad, Suggs, & Hurt) were not going to come here. He pulled in ok talent, although several players did not work out.

He failed to inspire & motivate the players during crunch time. Failed to make in game changes that win close games. PJ has more experience as a successful coach and player and the gets the respect of his players. Richard is likeable but he didn't play basketball at a high level. His game time demeanor is awful. I don't see how the players can fully buy into his schtick. He is a classic nepotism case, hired because of his father is a great coach, and he wasn't ready for it.

I think if we don't get the Wright and Sims of MN, we'll never build a consistent winner or get the higher level recruits a reason to come here. I give him credit for Coffey and Otoru, but how often does IA or WI miss on the top 40-125 level players in their state? I don't have those numbers, but I bet it's much lower than us.

 

[btowngopher]

I don't really blame him too much for the local recruiting misses. Mckinley Wright and Jericho Sims would have been nice gets but many others (Tyus, Tre, Rashad, Suggs, & Hurt) were not going to come here. He pulled in ok talent, although several players did not work out.

He failed to inspire & motivate the players during crunch time. Failed to make in game changes that win close games. PJ has more experience as a successful coach and player and the gets the respect of his players. Richard is likeable but he didn't play basketball at a high level. His game time demeanor is awful. I don't see how the players can fully buy into his schtick. He is a classic nepotism case, hired because of his father is a great coach, and he wasn't ready for it.

I don’t think it’s a given that there are no coaches out there that would be able to get some of the elite instate guys to stick around.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

I don’t think it’s a given that there are no coaches out there that would be able to get some of the elite instate guys to stick around.

I agree in general.

However, it's also hard to know for sure who would take the job who ... also be able to keep elite in state guys.

That's like half / all the battle of picking a coach...

 

[UpAndUnder43]

I don't really blame him too much for the local recruiting misses. Mckinley Wright and Jericho Sims would have been nice gets but many others (Tyus, Tre, Rashad, Suggs, & Hurt) were not going to come here. He pulled in ok talent, although several players did not work out.

He failed to inspire & motivate the players during crunch time. Failed to make in game changes that win close games. PJ has more experience as a successful coach and player and the gets the respect of his players. Richard is likeable but he didn't play basketball at a high level. His game time demeanor is awful. I don't see how the players can fully buy into his schtick. He is a classic nepotism case, hired because of his father is a great coach, and he wasn't ready for it.

Very few successful coaches played basketball beyond high school or small college. Doesn't change

I don't really blame him too much for the local recruiting misses. Mckinley Wright and Jericho Sims would have been nice gets but many others (Tyus, Tre, Rashad, Suggs, & Hurt) were not going to come here. He pulled in ok talent, although several players did not work out.

He failed to inspire & motivate the players during crunch time. Failed to make in game changes that win close games. PJ has more experience as a successful coach and player and the gets the respect of his players. Richard is likeable but he didn't play basketball at a high level. His game time demeanor is awful. I don't see how the players can fully buy into his schtick. He is a classic nepotism case, hired because of his father is a great coach, and he wasn't ready for it.

basketball at a high level doesn’t matter. Read this list and you’ll see that.

Ranking 2021 NCAA tournament coaches as players, 1-68

Two former NBA All-Stars, a national champion at North Carolina and a guy who didn't play past the eighth grade.

www.espn.com

 

[stocker08]

Good take, soupcan. Yeah....Fleck's success is what did Pitino in. Not the eight years with two NCAA appearances and one over .500 Big Ten season.

 

[TurfGopher]

Very few successful coaches played basketball beyond high school or small college. Doesn't change

basketball at a high level doesn’t matter. Read this list and you’ll see that.

Ranking 2021 NCAA tournament coaches as players, 1-68

Two former NBA All-Stars, a national champion at North Carolina and a guy who didn't play past the eighth grade.

www.espn.com

I suppose you're right. Did he even play high school basketball? RP can't possibly be any taller than 5'10" Maybe a JV point guard.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

I suppose you're right. Did he even play high school basketball? RP can't possibly be any taller than 5'10" Maybe a JV point guard.

He played in high school, but its really irrelevant. That list proves it. There is no correlation playing at a high level and coaching at a high level .In fact, many HOFers have failed as college coaches.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

He played in high school, but its really irrelevant. That list proves it. There is no correlation playing at a high level and coaching at a high level .In fact, many HOFers have failed as college coaches.

Sometimes being good at a thing / just being a natural at it ... makes it really hard to coach up folks who aren't / trying to get better / don't understand.

I'm thinking of every math teacher I've ever met ...

 

[Otis]

Missing in recruiting 101:

Basketball: You get 15 scholarships and play 5 guys at a time. Every missed scholarship is noticeable by everyone who cares.

Football: You get what? 100 scholarships and play 22 guys, 11 at a time. Lineman are invisible to the average fan and you can take HS kids and have them eat, lift weights and develop into studs before having to use them. Scholarship misses can be almost invisible if you find just a few diamonds in the rough out of your stable of 100+ players.

Pitino wasted far too many scholarships on non-contributing players for a sport where just 1 or 2 players can make a huge impact.

PJ and his coaches, and Kill, have found lesser known players and developed them into studs over time. His low rated recruits have improved while at the U through his program.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

Missing in recruiting 101:

Basketball: You get 15 scholarships and play 5 guys at a time. Every missed scholarship is noticeable by everyone who cares.

Football: You get what? 100 scholarships and play 22 guys, 11 at a time. Lineman are invisible to the average fan and you can take HS kids and have them eat, lift weights and develop into studs before having to use them. Scholarship misses can be almost invisible if you find just a few diamonds in the rough out of your stable of 100+ players.

Pitino wasted far too many scholarships on non-contributing players for a sport where just 1 or 2 players can make a huge impact.

PJ and his coaches, and Kill, have found lesser known players and developed them into studs over time. His low rated recruits have improved while at the U through his program.

That's the reason I'm wary of folks who say a coach's strength is finding lesser known players who can contribute well later on ..... because math says that is probably going to happen anyhow in football.

Just by the numbers every coach is going to do that ...

That still could be a skill that a coach has that is better than others, but just doing the thing, almost all of them will just by the odds pick a guy who stands out later

 

[MNVCGUY]

That's the reason I'm wary of folks who say a coach's strength is finding lesser known players who can contribute well later on ..... because math says that is probably going to happen anyhow in football.

Just by the numbers every coach is going to do that ...

That still could be a skill that a coach has that is better than others, but just doing the thing, almost all of them will just by the odds pick a guy who stands out later

Your first part was definitely a limiting factor in the recruiting being done by guys like Mason, Kill and would have almost certainly been the case with Claeys as well. Those staffs did seem to have better than average luck at finding those hidden gems but they also struggled to recruit the high end difference makers that you need as well.

Fleck is getting us in the door with those bigger time recruits. No guarantees that they will succeed when they get to college but to truly compete in the Big Ten you have to land some of those guys that everyone is after and not just hope you can find the fringe Big Ten guys and turn them into stars.

 

[highwayman]

A successful football program should put more spotlight on a University and therefore potentially help another program. Don't see how in any way a solid football program would hurt recruiting or Pitino's ability to coach in the slightest.

Soupcan’s theory, like all his theories, are not really theories. He’s just lazy, and stupid. What a great job.