Shama: Successful programs don’t have five players transfer within about 12 months

[BleedGopher]

From Shama:

"Successful basketball programs don’t have five players transfer within about 12 months but that’s reality for the Gophers. The departed now include Colton Iverson, the junior center who for whatever reasons didn’t improve during his career at Minnesota. Earlier this year guard Devoe Joseph transferred, while last off season forwards Paul Carter and Royce White, and guard Justin Cobbs, also left the program. Minnesota was 6-12 in the Big Ten last season.

What if Iverson joined White at Iowa State playing for former Timberwolves executive Fred Hoiberg who in his first year coaching in Ames has made national news with several transfers joining his program?"

http://www.shamasportsheadliners.com/

Go Gophers!!

 

[Holy Man]

Who is this guy, Shama? There is context to everything, and he clearly has not worked with the 18-22 year old set much in the last decade. At least part of what is happening is generational. Maybe he might actually talk to someone (Coach Smith) about it. To call Carter and White "transfers" is a bit of a stretch, since both of them had circumstances surrounding them which forced their decisions. He fails to mention that Joseph had a seven game suspension to start the season. This kind of garbage being spit out is just low. He has an axe to grind against Smith for some reason. Ask the questions, fine. But contribute to the conversation with a little research and context. I hope he isn't getting paid for this garbage.

 

[jovs]

Tubby's recruting classes:

1. 0/2 of Monson's last class left.
2. 3/5 of Tubby's first class left early and one that stuck is Bostick, what does that tell you.
3. 2/4 of Tubby's second class have left.

Let's see what happens with the third class. For the most part they aren't first round lottery picks, but players that are good that need to develop. If this continues they obviously will be Big Ten bottom feeders.

 

[goldengophers]

I agree the number of transfers can indicate on or more the the following:
-Athlete was sold something in recruiting that was far different in reality
-Issues with coaching style
-Coaching staff is not recruiting the right type of players for their program

 

[goldengophers]

Who is this guy, Shama? There is context to everything, and he clearly has not worked with the 18-22 year old set much in the last decade. At least part of what is happening is generational. Maybe he might actually talk to someone (Coach Smith) about it. To call Carter and White "transfers" is a bit of a stretch, since both of them had circumstances surrounding them which forced their decisions. He fails to mention that Joseph had a seven game suspension to start the season. This kind of garbage being spit out is just low. He has an axe to grind against Smith for some reason. Ask the questions, fine. But contribute to the conversation with a little research and context. I hope he isn't getting paid for this garbage.

Take off the maroon and gold glasses for a second and realize that with the exception of Paul Carter it is fair to place culpability on Tubby Smith. He recruits the athletes (watches them, talks to them, looks into their past) and it is his responsibility to understand the type of player and personality that will help to make his program successful. Every program is going to have some transfers but usually they are bench type players looking for more playing time, not Devoe Joseph, Colton Iverson, Royce White and Cobbs types.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Take off the maroon and gold glasses for a second and realize that with the exception of Paul Carter it is fair to place culpability on Tubby Smith. He recruits the athletes (watches them, talks to them, looks into their past) and it is his responsibility to understand the type of player and personality that will help to make his program successful. Every program is going to have some transfers but usually they are bench type players looking for more playing time, not Devoe Joseph, Colton Iverson, Royce White and Cobbs types.

I think you have to include Royce White there as well. He was a very highly recruited local kid. Tubby would have been criticized a lot more if he never offered White. It was a gamble he had to make, and I think it's tough to fault him for it. Tubby's fair game however for the other guys.

 

[goldengophers]

I think you have to include Royce White there as well. He was a very highly recruited local kid. Tubby would have been criticized a lot more if he never offered White. It was a gamble he had to make, and I think it's tough to fault him for it. Tubby's fair game however for the other guys.

I agree, he had to take Royce or would have been derided much more than he has been for that situation.

 

[notagopherfan]

This is a bad headline because successful programs do what they have to do to become successful. If that means kicking off a pothead who's flunking out of school. Letting an OK C(Iverson) transfer because he was really the best you could get when you first got here but now you have the guys you want(Walker, Elliason, Oto, Sampson) who give you more versatility then fine you do it.

Your other transfers are mostly guys who aren't going to play. Cobbs wasn't to play much though the circumstances that played out may have changed that. Carter left for family reasons. Royce never played a game for you guys and was nothing but trouble and bad PR for you.

You'll have 5 solid guards next year, great length, you'll be a lot quicker and a much better shooting team. I don't know why your complaining. All you're doing is getting rid of dead weight and upgrading your talent. It happens when you're building a program as well as players that you end up taking a chance on because of talent(White, Devoe) who end up being more trouble than they're worth. I can't tell you how much we saw this in Pitino's first 4 years at UK.

 

[Jon]

Successful new papers don’t have Shama as a news clown

I did not read this article or any of his articles anymore

 

[Dr.Don]

I can't tell you how much we saw this in Pitino's first 4 years at UK.

Good point. But some would rather blame everything on Coach Smith.

Sometimes to get something better for the future, one has to give up something decent for today. That is life.

 

[jovs]

This is a bad headline because successful programs do what they have to do to become successful. If that means kicking off a pothead who's flunking out of school. Letting an OK C(Iverson) transfer because he was really the best you could get when you first got here but now you have the guys you want(Walker, Elliason, Oto, Sampson) who give you more versatility then fine you do it.

Your other transfers are mostly guys who aren't going to play. Cobbs wasn't to play much though the circumstances that played out may have changed that. Carter left for family reasons. Royce never played a game for you guys and was nothing but trouble and bad PR for you.

You'll have 5 solid guards next year, great length, you'll be a lot quicker and a much better shooting team. I don't know why your complaining. All you're doing is getting rid of dead weight and upgrading your talent. It happens when you're building a program as well as players that you end up taking a chance on because of talent(White, Devoe) who end up being more trouble than they're worth. I can't tell you how much we saw this in Pitino's first 4 years at UK.

Come on now, Cobbs would be the starting PG and Joseph would be the starting SG next year if they were here. They could have used both to fill in at pg this last year.

Carter would have been the starting SF last year and a second three point threat.

With Mbwake, Iverson's playing time was limited and would be next year if Mbwake stays.

These were key components to the team that probably would have gotten them into the NCAA tournement, and who knows battled for the Big Ten title this last year and made them competitive next year.

 

[507Gopher]

Come on now, Cobbs would be the starting PG and Joseph would be the starting SG next year if they were here. They could have used both to fill in at pg this last year.

Carter would have been the starting SF last year and a second three point threat.

With Mbwake, Iverson's playing time was limited and would be next year if Mbwake stays.

These were key components to the team that probably would have gotten them into the NCAA tournement, and who knows battled for the Big Ten title this last year and made them competitive next year.

I agree with all of your assesments, it just shows how hard it is to have a young player concentrate on the long term (With the exception of Paul Carter, who if his reason to leave was as reported, which i believe it still was, his focus was on his family needs, which is even more respectable). I think Cobb's just thought that he should have been a star far day one, and according to Tubby, Devoe wasnt getting it done in the classroom, and Iverson was prolly the only player who wasnt going to be seeing playing time go up through his career which in that sense, makes sense for him to transfer.

 

[Holy Man]

Take off the maroon and gold glasses for a second and realize that with the exception of Paul Carter it is fair to place culpability on Tubby Smith. He recruits the athletes (watches them, talks to them, looks into their past) and it is his responsibility to understand the type of player and personality that will help to make his program successful. Every program is going to have some transfers but usually they are bench type players looking for more playing time, not Devoe Joseph, Colton Iverson, Royce White and Cobbs types.

The point is that the hack is drawing conclusions without doing any more work on the subject than you or I do. Culpability is hard to place when you don't have the complete data. Circumstances that we have the data (Carter, White) are clear and would not attribute culpability to Tubby. The others are not as clear, but playing time appears to be a significant factor. Including Carter in the list of transfers of guys complaining about playing time is just an unfair assessment of the situation.

I return to the point of the generational problem. A lot of 18-22 year olds lack patience and perseverance. Cobbs certainly fits into that category. Iverson does not (he stuck it out for three years). Joseph is an unknown but he did something to get a seven game suspension. I can't believe it was arbitrary or purely about attitude. Transfers happen and the timing and circumstances hamstrung the team this year, but as far as I know, we don't have any more than an average D-1 team. Current recruiting practices seem to be focusing on fewer at risk candidates, which will help in stability. We'll see what happens on the court.

If Trevor and Ralph hit the road, I suspect Shama will blame that on Tubby as well. My glasses are not as maroon as you think they are. The guy is a hack.

 

[jmag21]

Shama is an irrelevant joke. I refuse to give the man hits by even clicking on the link. When you can't make it in the media of this town, you're worse than the most incompetent writers in the country. And that ain't good.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

From Shama:

"Successful basketball programs don’t have five players transfer within about 12 months but that’s reality for the Gophers. The departed now include Colton Iverson, the junior center who for whatever reasons didn’t improve during his career at Minnesota. Earlier this year guard Devoe Joseph transferred, while last off season forwards Paul Carter and Royce White, and guard Justin Cobbs, also left the program. Minnesota was 6-12 in the Big Ten last season.

What if Iverson joined White at Iowa State playing for former Timberwolves executive Fred Hoiberg who in his first year coaching in Ames has made national news with several transfers joining his program?"

I would guess playing time was a key factor in Cobbs, Carter, Joseph and Iverson...Joseph maybe his own worst enemy and the other three, just not a big upside.

I have been critical of Tubby's stubborness surrounding RSIII and RW even when they struggle...and if RSIII leaves this year...it was a bad gamble by Tubby...but if thier talent and ability actually comes out next year...we will see what Tubby has seen...two very good players and without a doubt...the two best players at their position. Iverson, Cobbs and Carter did not have the upside of Devoe, RW or RSIII...and Devoe had his off the court problems and on the court attitude problems that tripped up his talent.

It's a gamble by Tubby that may turn out to really hurt him...but if this Gopher team is going to be good next year, we need the best versions of RSIII and RW...and playing them is the only way to get them there. If not...we are going to struggle for a couple more years until this years class starts to play out.

The only player I will miss and also feel wasted his opportunity and screwed us all over by being an imature canadian dbag is Devoe...the others weren't going to give us a big upside.

If Mbakwe is back for one more year, RSIII plays that high post to his ability and RW starts to play aggressive and confident like he did at times this year...plus a solid list of Juco, Fr and So gaurds that all have length and quickness plus Otto shooting from the corner and a healthy Mo and RFr EE...I like our team next year. Without Mbakwe...a little less, but still going to compete most nights.

 

[GoFerit]

This is a bad headline because successful programs do what they have to do to become successful. If that means kicking off a pothead who's flunking out of school. Letting an OK C(Iverson) transfer because he was really the best you could get when you first got here but now you have the guys you want(Walker, Elliason, Oto, Sampson) who give you more versatility then fine you do it.

Your other transfers are mostly guys who aren't going to play. Cobbs wasn't to play much though the circumstances that played out may have changed that. Carter left for family reasons. Royce never played a game for you guys and was nothing but trouble and bad PR for you.

You'll have 5 solid guards next year, great length, you'll be a lot quicker and a much better shooting team. I don't know why your complaining. All you're doing is getting rid of dead weight and upgrading your talent. It happens when you're building a program as well as players that you end up taking a chance on because of talent(White, Devoe) who end up being more trouble than they're worth. I can't tell you how much we saw this in Pitino's first 4 years at UK.

We are fresh out of a disappointing season. Consequently, a lot of people here are alarmed about the state of the program under Tubby. I believe some are really overcompensating on this concern by bringing up all the “transfers.”

In the world of sports lives “show me the money,” I guess . Tubby has failed to come up with the money. So, this may go on till Tubby actually does it. That is, all we have to do is to wait and see what may transpire next season. If we finish better than 9-9/6th in the conference, makes the Tourney, and have a good recruiting class next season, there will be no bitching. If we fail to make the Dance AND come up with a mediocre recruiting class, Tubby may have to go.

In the meantime, some people need to find something to keep them occupied and amused with in a very vague and masochistic way about transfers as this thread demonstrates. For your own sanity, please keep yourself away from all this.

 

[disco]

Shama is an irrelevant joke. I refuse to give the man hits by even clicking on the link. When you can't make it in the media of this town, you're worse than the most incompetent writers in the country. And that ain't good.

This. He's more or less some washed up old guy pretending to be a journalist.

 

[jamalo]

What is the threshold for transfers next year that would cause people to be concerned? 2? 3? Half of the non-seniors? I'll never understand the wolfpack mentality when it comes to dissenting opinions. Why not just address the thesis of the opposing argument rather than attacking the messenger?

 

[JackiO]

What is the threshold for transfers next year that would cause people to be concerned? 2? 3? Half of the non-seniors? I'll never understand the wolfpack mentality when it comes to dissenting opinions. Why not just address the thesis of the opposing argument rather than attacking the messenger?

Don't you understand...when people on this board hear or read things that goes against anything gophers even if it is logical they turn into complete buffoons and make themselves look like idiots in the process. I've learned to deal with it.

 

[jamalo]

Agreed JackiO. The problem is that they are potentially supporting something that goes against anything Gophers if there is later found to be fire where there was evidence of smoke.

 

[anonymous]

Somewhere in Chicago, Shama's post is making FOT's head explode.

 

[Unregistered User]

This is a bad headline because successful programs do what they have to do to become successful. If that means kicking off a pothead who's flunking out of school. Letting an OK C(Iverson) transfer because he was really the best you could get when you first got here but now you have the guys you want(Walker, Elliason, Oto, Sampson) who give you more versatility then fine you do it.

Your other transfers are mostly guys who aren't going to play. Cobbs wasn't to play much though the circumstances that played out may have changed that. Carter left for family reasons. Royce never played a game for you guys and was nothing but trouble and bad PR for you.

You'll have 5 solid guards next year, great length, you'll be a lot quicker and a much better shooting team. I don't know why your complaining. All you're doing is getting rid of dead weight and upgrading your talent. It happens when you're building a program as well as players that you end up taking a chance on because of talent(White, Devoe) who end up being more trouble than they're worth. I can't tell you how much we saw this in Pitino's first 4 years at UK.

Worst...trolling...ever.

Stop applying logic to this situation. It would be preferable in the future if you write things that make it seem that you just put down the crack pipe so we can all tell you to just STFU.

Long story short, I agree with all you wrote.

 

[Unregistered User]

Come on now, Cobbs would be the starting PG...

That's what the poster meant when he/she wrote "Cobbs wasn't to play much though the circumstances that played out may have changed that."

 

[gopherphan]

Carter left because of his sister. Not Tubby's Fault

White left because of his stupidity. Not Tubby's Fault (and we know he tried hard to keep him)

Joseph left because of his penchant for Mary Jane, (and playing time) and Tubby's disinterest indulging him. I can't fault Tubby for trying to keep his players clean.

Cobbs left because of playing time and being homesick (iirc). Tubby's fault for having too many better players on the depth chart?

Colton left because he knows that he'll be riding the bench next year because in all honesty he hasnt really improved and Mo (and Eliot and Oto..etc) is going to eat up what time he would have gotten. Again, Tubby's fault for recruiting good players?

Even if you don't agree with my reasonings, you have to accept that there is a hell of alot going on with all of these guys that we don't know about and can't know about because we're not there. Speculation is all we have.

*edit need to read more notagopherfan beat me to it*

 

[The-Real-Truth]

Carter left because of his sister. Not Tubby's Fault

White left because of his stupidity. Not Tubby's Fault (and we know he tried hard to keep him)

Joseph left because of his penchant for Mary Jane, (and playing time) and Tubby's disinterest indulging him. I can't fault Tubby for trying to keep his players clean.

Cobbs left because of playing time and being homesick (iirc). Tubby's fault for having too many better players on the depth chart?

Colton left because he knows that he'll be riding the bench next year because in all honesty he hasnt really improved and Mo (and Eliot and Oto..etc) is going to eat up what time he would have gotten. Again, Tubby's fault for recruiting good players?

Even if you don't agree with my reasonings, you have to accept that there is a hell of alot going on with all of these guys that we don't know about and can't know about because we're not there. Speculation is all we have.

*edit need to read more notagopherfan beat me to it*

Great post. Thank you.

Go Gophers

 

[The-Real-Truth]

This is a bad headline because successful programs do what they have to do to become successful. If that means kicking off a pothead who's flunking out of school. Letting an OK C(Iverson) transfer because he was really the best you could get when you first got here but now you have the guys you want(Walker, Elliason, Oto, Sampson) who give you more versatility then fine you do it.

Your other transfers are mostly guys who aren't going to play. Cobbs wasn't to play much though the circumstances that played out may have changed that. Carter left for family reasons. Royce never played a game for you guys and was nothing but trouble and bad PR for you.

You'll have 5 solid guards next year, great length, you'll be a lot quicker and a much better shooting team. I don't know why your complaining. All you're doing is getting rid of dead weight and upgrading your talent. It happens when you're building a program as well as players that you end up taking a chance on because of talent(White, Devoe) who end up being more trouble than they're worth. I can't tell you how much we saw this in Pitino's first 4 years at UK.

Great post. Thank you. Please post more here even if you are not a Gopher fan. There are way too many clueless posters here.

Go Gophers

 

[notagopherfan]

Well I'm sort of a gopher fan because of tubby. I think I watched them every time they were on TV this year. I felt bad for Tubby because you had a really good team to start the year. I think you guys made it to #13 or so but as I said before, no team has 3 capable point guards and you guys lost 2, then your best shooting guard was playing pg and it took him out of his element. You guys were close in every game that you lost down the stretch and didn't get blown out all year. I think you're in good shape next year.