Recruiting versus Coaching and Player Retention

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GopherinFlorida

GopherinFlorida

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I know the quality of the athlete is important...but as we see with so many programs these days...3 star players that are coached and kept in a program for 5 years can grow and compete with the big boys...ala Boise State, Utah, TCU, Kansas St, etc. Teams that didn't have the tOSU talent, but were still fighting for BCS bowls.

I don't have any belief that we will be competing for a National Championship anytime soon...but if Kill can consistently recruit good athletes that fit his system and stay with the program for 5 years... I firmly believe we can compete at a high level and excel. Add in a couple of top talent at skill positions (RB or QB) and maybe we make a run for a year or two.

I always saw the failing of Mason as the inability to get moderate talent accross the board to fill out both the O and D...we always seemed like we were weak in an area...recruiting was a problem. With Brew...retention and coaching were the problem.

If Kill can get us 3star talent and keep'em on the team for 5 years...we will win more than we lose and compete...IMO.
 

I think this rivals "star" stuff is much over rated, and too many people make too much of it.

Too many people think all one needs to do is get on the rivals site and write down a bunch of 3 star, 4 star and 5 star players....then pick up the phone and make about 150 scholarship offers......and then hope you can yield about 20-25 players.

It doesn't work that way.

Recruiting is simply hard work.....one has to look at the game film ONESELF, interview high school coaches and teachers, interview the players and parents, evaluate the academics, look at the players background, work ethic, attitude, etc., etc. It's hard work. The Rivals folks simply don't do all that.
 

Don't fool yourself.......recruiting top athletes is paramount to having a winning program. You do not consistently beat the top schools by taking their leftovers, you have to land some of the kids that they want, too. You CAN get lucky and land the 2 star kids that are overlooked by everyone else that turn out to be gems, but your bust ratio is a lot higher than with the top kids and that's a proven fact.

I do believe that Kill's classes will most likely get better if he wins whereas this was not the case for Glen Mason. Mason turned in basically the same type of classes every year, even when he won 10 games.

But -- what you say about keeping the kids in the program for 5 years is absolutely true. You win championships with experienced teams, especially on the lines. You win with an offensive line that has 4 5th year seniors and a 4 year junior on it -- you don't win with 3 freshmen and 2 sophomores. Program continuity is very important -- we haven't seen this in a very long time. We lose way too many players in their first or second year and lose their best years. This is where a good coach who can coach these kids up comes in because they will most likely be much better to the program as 22-23 year olds than they are as an 18 year old freshman. They will put on weight, speed and add experience so they don't go into hostile environments of 100,000 fans and become unglued or completely in awe.

Again, Kill's biggest question mark is going to be recruiting but so far I think he has me feeling pretty good about everything else involved in coaching. If he can come across as honest and sincere and a good coach who will coach the kid up to be a better football player, that will come across a lot better when he recruits than a big blowhard that sounds like a used car salesman or a flippant uncaring guy who would rather just get some more kids from Ohio than you anyways.
 

I think it's really important for a school like the U to have player retention. I think the only way a program like the U wins their conference is to recruit guys that fit your system (consistantly), RS as much as possible and hope that you hit lightening in the bottle on a few recruits.

This is going to sound about as common sense as possible but I think you just need to find the best athletes that you think fit your system and that you think will be here for the full 5 seasons. I am not saying that "star ratings" don't matter, because they do. However, they aren't the end all be all. I think Kill's recruiting rankings will improve if he does a good job and keeps being an upfront kind of guy, but I think we will always have classes that have sporadic 2 star players and lower ranked 3 star players making up a part of the class. Iowa and Wisconsin do it every single season. Part of the reason is because we need a lot of those 5 year players to build depth and continuity and the other reason is that the Upper Midwest doesn't get evaluated as well as other areas (IMO), especially when it comes to OL, DL, LB and TE.
 

Recruiting, "coaching up", and player retention are not separate distinct issues. They all have to be part of a program that fits together. They did not under Brewster because we had a different objective every year.
We can have a good program based on "three star" recruits if we know what we want and are consistent about pursuing the same objective every year. Coach kill knows what he wants and will stay after it. The fact he knows what he wants, and has three proven good recruiters on his staff and a couple more who may turn out to be good recruiters at this level provides the best chance we have had in a long time.
 


For the most part, talent wins. Boise State, TCU, and Utah play in far easier conferences than the Big Ten. They play a lot of easy games, so they don't need the depth of talent that is needed in the Big Ten, SEC, or Big 12 to withstand the injuries occurred during 6-7 tough games per year.

Retention was a problem before Brewster. I don't believe it is acceptable to go backwards in terms of the talent brought in on signing day (Kill mostly gets a pass for this year). I'd rather have a 3 star player that was offered by Iowa and Michigan State than a 4 star guy offered by Indiana and Purdue. We have too many guys in this class who are not being offered by teams we want to be competitive with. I think it's unrealistic to expect the program to succeed with large numbers of athletes who don't have a number of BCS offers. There's always guys who will be able to do it (McKnight a recent example, Eslinger an older example), but it can't be 1/3 (or more) of your team.
 

EG#9 said:
For the most part, talent wins. Boise State, TCU, and Utah play in far easier conferences than the Big Ten. They play a lot of easy games, so they don't need the depth of talent that is needed in the Big Ten, SEC, or Big 12 to withstand the injuries occurred during 6-7 tough games per year.

Retention was a problem before Brewster. I don't believe it is acceptable to go backwards in terms of the talent brought in on signing day (Kill mostly gets a pass for this year). I'd rather have a 3 star player that was offered by Iowa and Michigan State than a 4 star guy offered by Indiana and Purdue. We have too many guys in this class who are not being offered by teams we want to be competitive with. I think it's unrealistic to expect the program to succeed with large numbers of athletes who don't have a number of BCS offers. There's always guys who will be able to do it (McKnight a recent example, Eslinger an older example), but it can't be 1/3 (or more) of your team.
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I think you have to look at the JuCo guys seperately.

I look at JuCo players as guys who are taking the spot of the players who left for whatever reason. JuCo's are recruited completely different, often with different reasons for their recruitment (depth, immediete depth, keep our FR's RS alive, etc.).

Now, when you look at this class in comparison with WI and IAs, it's pretty comparable. WI is having a really good class and they have a handful of guys without any other BCS offers.
 

The upper midwest isn't exactly a mecca for national BCS schools to recruit. IMO, it is not exactly a suprise to see Wisconsin and Iowa also have recruits who did not receive other BCS offers.
 

4four4 said:
The upper midwest isn't exactly a mecca for national BCS schools to recruit. IMO, it is not exactly a suprise to see Wisconsin and Iowa also have recruits who did not receive other BCS offers.
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Yeah, it's one of those things where I don't think the Upper Midwest gets recruited enough and I don't think it gets enough credit from recruiting experts, especially amongst OL, DL, and TEs. All three of us schools (Iowa, WI, MN) have a really god TE it seems like every single season and most of those kids are very lightley recruited kids.
 



I guess I'm greedy. I want a coach that recruits well and coaches them up. Hopefully Coach Kill will be the guy that does that.
 

My definition of a quality recruit is who else has offerred and not the number of stars. Stars appear to be based too much on "look" test versus football ability.
 

I think the key to winning is getting players who put more points on the board than the opposition
 

I do think there are a lot of UpperMidwest kids who develop late for various reasons, one of them being a year around football focus is not the norm here. With that said however, it still is not easy to identify all of the kids with a lot of upside from a lot of other kids who just don't get there. The number of good o-linemen that have gone to other schools and even the NFL, does indicate we clearly have missed the boat in that area. When this issue comes up I always think about looking at Eric Decker's high school clips, and it was clear he was a good athlete and had good hands, but it was not clear, to me at least, he could just take the ball away from any defensive back in the BigTen. Maybe someone could have seen it from watching him play basketball, but his ability to adjust in the air was amazing.
It's a new day, I trust these guys will take as many local kids as they believe can really play their style of football, but they made it clear they want mobile kids. They should really enjoy this, it will be the first time they have recruited as the top program in their home state.
 



4four4 said:
The upper midwest isn't exactly a mecca for national BCS schools to recruit. IMO, it is not exactly a suprise to see Wisconsin and Iowa also have recruits who did not receive other BCS offers.
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These are some notables who will are in either the college or NFL hall of fame from Minnesota (inclusive of the U): Bobby Bell, Carl Eller, Bud Grant, Bronko Nagurski, Leo Nomellini, Paul Giel, William Heffelfinger, Bobby Marshall, Pug Lund, John McGovern, Bruce Smith
Dave Casper, Sid Gillman, Joe Guyon, Walt Kiesling, Jim Langer, John Madden, Ernie Nevers.

Here are some recent notable NFL players who played in at least 30 games who hail from Minnesota: James Laurinaitis (The Ohio State), Larry Fitzgerald (Pitt), Michael Arthur (Texas A&M), Marian Barber (U of M), Bill Barnett (Nebraska), Barry Bennet (Concordia), James Bertelson (Texas), Matt Birk (Harvard), Jon Borchardt (Montana State), Todd Bouman (South Dakota State); Lawrence Brink (Northern Illinois), Bill Buckler, (Alabama), Wendel Butcher (Gustavus Adolphus), John Campbell (U of M), Gino Capelletti (U of M), Jay Carroll (U of M), James Carter (U of M), Larry Cole (Hawaii/AFA/Houston), Carl Cramer (Hamline), Ward Cuff (Marquette), Bruno Cuppoletti (Oregon), David Dalby (UCLA), Dick Danmeier (Souix Falls), Mark Dusbabek (UofM), Patrick Eilers (Notre Dame), Aaron Eiling (Wyoming), Dick Enderle (UofM), Derek Engler (Wisconsin), Harold Erickson (St. Olaf), James Fahnhorst (UofM), Keith Fahnhorst (U of M), John Fina (Arizona), William P. Fleckenstein (Carleton/Iowa), Jamal Foreman (Nebraska), Phillip Freeman (Arizona), Russell Gary (Nebraska), Jeff Groth (Bowling Green State), James Gustafson (St Thomas), Roger Hagberg (UofM), Ben Hamilton (UofM), Hal Hanson (UofM), Ryan Harris (Notre Dame), Justin Hartwig (Kansas), Steve Heiden (South Dakota State), Matt Herkenhoff (UofM), Gordon Holz (UofM), Jon F. Jelacic (UofM), Herbert W. Joesting (UofM), Daniel Johnson (Iowa St), Lester Josephson (Augustana), Todd Kalis (Arizona State), Steven Kiner (Tennessee), Kurt Knoff (Kansas), Steven Knutson (USC), Victor Kulbitski (UofM/Notre Dame), Corbin Lacina (Augustana), Gregory Larson (UofM), Jack Ross Lee (Cincinnati), Michael Lehan (UofM), Charles Loewen (South Dakota State), John M. Lohmiller (UofM), Sean Lumpkin (UofM), Thomas MacLeod (UofM), Errol Mann (NoDak), Steven Martin (Missouri), Ted McKnight, John McNamara (UofM), Jon Melander (UofM), Mark Merrill (UofM), Russell G. Method (no college), Michael Mikula, Paul Anthony Mitchell (UofM), Wilbur John Moore (UofM), Steven Neils (UofM), Bob Nelson (Nebraska), Steven Nelson (Augsburg/NoDak), Keith Nord (St Cloud State), Daniel E. Orlich (Penn State), John Perko (Duquesne), Richard Pesonen (UofM/UMD), Volney Peters (USC), Joe Prokop (UCalPoly), Derek Rackley (UofM), Randy Rasmussen (UofM), John Richardson (UCLA), Stacy Robinson (NoDak), Wayne L. Robinson (UofM), Harry Rooney (UofM), Thomas Ruud (Nebraska), Craig Sauer (UofM), Robert Schmidt (UofM), Joseph Schmiesing (New Mexico St/UofM/NoDak College of Science), Jeff Schuh (UofM), Lyle Sendlein (Texas), Jeff Siemon (Stanford), Rod Smith (Notre Dame), Gordon Soltau (UofM), Victor M. Spadaccini (UofM), Matt Spaeth (UofM), Robert Stein (UofM), William Stein (Macalester/Fordham), Terrell Suggs (Arizona State), Milt Sunde (UofM), Harland Svare (Washington St), Earl Svendsen (UofM), Robert Sweiger (UofM), Darrell Thompson (UofM), Frank Tonnemaer (UofM), Jack Trudeau (Illinois), John Underwood (none), Andrew Uram (UofM), Reuben J. Ursella (none), Ben Utecht (UofM), Lloyd Voss (Nebraska), Stephen Walsh (Miami), Christopher Weinke (Florida St), Robert Wetoska (Notre Dame), Edwin C. Widseth (UofM-Crookston), Jeff Wright (UofM), Fred Young (NoDak/Macalester), Frank Youso (UofM), Steven Zabel (Oklahoma).

As you can see, the list is kind of small and not everybody played for the U.
 

CDH27 said:
I guess I'm greedy. I want a coach that recruits well and coaches them up. Hopefully Coach Kill will be the guy that does that.
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I think this issue is a "both/and" and not an "either/or."

You want to get the best kids in (and I realize that "best" is subjective) and keep them around. The goal should be a five-year cycle program where you can red-shirt at least 75% (and hopefully more) of your freshman class each year.

Minnesota is always going to be able to produce offensive linemen, but we are probably going to have to go elsewhere to consistently be at least two or three deep at the skilled positions. I still see Wisconsin and Iowa as good models in this regard.
 

Don't forget that pumping thing in the chest. A player with heart and desire can overcome alot if he has a little talent and good coaching to go with it.
 


northerngopher said:
Hard wor:)k will beat talent when talent doesn't work hard!
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Maybe. Sometimes. Possibly. Occasionally.

However, talent that works hard will almost always beat non-talent that works hard.

You need both. The idea that Kill will be able to win without recruiting effectively is fanboy poppycock. Other coaches 'coach them up' too, y'know.
 

Dick Pesonen,Green Bay UMD.....Ted McKnight,Oakland Raiders UMD........Chet Anderson,Pittsburg Steelers,Duluth Central.......
Dan Devine, Green Bay UMD.....Tom Adams, Vikings UMD......Dave Viaene, Houston Oilers,UMD....Vern Emerson, St Louis Cardinals UMD
 

USAFChief said:
Maybe. Sometimes. Possibly. Occasionally.

However, talent that works hard will almost always beat non-talent that works hard.

You need both. The idea that Kill will be able to win without recruiting effectively is fanboy poppycock. Other coaches 'coach them up' too, y'know.
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Largely agree. If talent "lifts enough fingers," it is going to beat lesser talented teams unless those lesser talented teams are recruited and schooled to a very specialized system. It's not enough to just go out and collect athletes, but if you collect good players, demand effort, and put those players in a place where they can succeed, they are usually going to beat lesser talented squads.
 

The biggest problem at Minnesota, no matter the talent level has been have we develop the player to his fullest potential? No, we have taken the talent and applied to a system. What it takes is the entire staff being on the same page. Every player working to be his best. This was brought into focus in the Big 10 interview with Adam Weber. He said for three years he hadn't been near the weight room, but going into this year he really hit the weights. When you have one player outside the strength and conditioning program you don't have a program. And when a Captain does not participate, it can cause division, and questioning of how important it is.

We have had some highly talented players, who could have been game changers but didn't. We saw other talent apply themselves and make plays we could not imagine.

This coaching staff, and Eric Klien will meet with each player. Give them what they want from them, they will monitor it, test it, evaluate it. All before the spring.
 

I'm not so sure that the difference between a three star and a four star is the amount of upside they have, as much as it is how soon they will be ready to play. I think you can assume a four star should be able to play well by the time they are a redshirt sophomore, for a three star it may be as a redshirt junior.
 

Tarball said:
Dick Pesonen,Green Bay UMD.....Ted McKnight,Oakland Raiders UMD........Chet Anderson,Pittsburg Steelers,Duluth Central.......
Dan Devine, Green Bay UMD.....Tom Adams, Vikings UMD......Dave Viaene, Houston Oilers,UMD....Vern Emerson, St Louis Cardinals UMD
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Thanks, I missed a few. Just goes to show that Minnesota produces a large number of drafted NFL players on a regular basis. It is not a rarity. It is a regular occurrence. Too many on GH and elsewhere are enamored with the myth that somehow southern, warm weather dwellers are gifted by the elements to better training and conditioning for speed, strength, endurance and other myths of nature. Wait until spring ball when the Minnesota State High School Champion in the 100m starts catching balls. The oohs and ahhhs will be heard from sideline to sideline.
 

Mustang Mountain Man said:
Thanks, I missed a few. Just goes to show that Minnesota produces a large number of drafted NFL players on a regular basis. It is not a rarity. It is a regular occurrence. Too many on GH and elsewhere are enamored with the myth that somehow southern, warm weather dwellers are gifted by the elements to better training and conditioning for speed, strength, endurance and other myths of nature. Wait until spring ball when the Minnesota State High School Champion in the 100m starts catching balls. The oohs and ahhhs will be heard from sideline to sideline.
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I've always felt that Minnesota should reserve around 8 or 10 scholarships for Minnesota kids every year. I also think Brewster passed on some Minnesota talent to take equivalent players from out of state. Boise State has about 36% of their roster from Idaho, but has far less D1 talent than Minnesota. Example: In 2010 Minnesota had 21 players commit to D1 schools, while Idaho had only 8 (per Rivals).
 

WAGopher said:
I've always felt that Minnesota should reserve around 8 or 10 scholarships for Minnesota kids every year. I also think Brewster passed on some Minnesota talent to take equivalent players from out of state. Boise State has about 36% of their roster from Idaho, but has far less D1 talent than Minnesota. Example: In 2010 Minnesota had 21 players commit to D1 schools, while Idaho had only 8 (per Rivals).
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Your math doesn't make much sense. A quick check of Boise State's published roster shows 24 of 109 players are from Idaho.

Didn't see how 36% of BSU's roster could be from Idaho when they only had 8 players commit to D1 schools in 2010, and it turns out I was right.

I think it's going to be difficult to find 8-10 worthy recruits from MN every year. There aren't that many B10 capable players every year to begin with, and not all of them will commit to the Gophers.
 

Mostly True?

USAFChief said:
Your math doesn't make much sense. A quick check of Boise State's published roster shows 24 of 109 players are from Idaho.

Didn't see how 36% of BSU's roster could be from Idaho when they only had 8 players commit to D1 schools in 2010, and it turns out I was right.

I think it's going to be difficult to find 8-10 worthy recruits from MN every year. There aren't that many B10 capable players every year to begin with, and not all of them will commit to the Gophers.
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I don't know if I am counting right but I think we have five MN kids so far this year. Say I'm short one or we add one more for 6. Next year it kinda seems like if we recruit well there could be 12 or more Minnesota kids. That'd be 9 on average. But, I think you are correct that finding 8 to 10 worthy MN recruits on an annual basis is going to be pushing it.

I think the answer is walk ons from Minnesota high schools. Somehow finding, convincing and developing kids to become preferred walk ons to the Gophers is the key. These people having success and getting those who earn scholarships in this manner to be featured and publicized.
Creating a desire on the part of high school kids to be a Gopher....to live a dream. But I think the seed needs to be planted for that dream to grow in enough kids.
 

Really True?

husker70 said:
The biggest problem at Minnesota, no matter the talent level has been have we develop the player to his fullest potential? No, we have taken the talent and applied to a system. What it takes is the entire staff being on the same page. Every player working to be his best. This was brought into focus in the Big 10 interview with Adam Weber. He said for three years he hadn't been near the weight room, but going into this year he really hit the weights. When you have one player outside the strength and conditioning program you don't have a program. And when a Captain does not participate, it can cause division, and questioning of how important it is.

We have had some highly talented players, who could have been game changers but didn't. We saw other talent apply themselves and make plays we could not imagine.

This coaching staff, and Eric Klien will meet with each player. Give them what they want from them, they will monitor it, test it, evaluate it. All before the spring.
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Is it really true that Weber wasn't near the weight room for three years? I know the captain part is true. How can you be a Big Ten football player, any player in good standing on the team, let alone a captain and not be in the weight room for three years? (Let alone three consecutive days?) Was it really that disorganized and undisciplined? I'm told by good sources that Brewster worked 15-18 hours a day. How is it possible for a coach to be that dedicated and allow players not to weight lift who play football on a scholarship? How is that possible if your coach worships Adam Weber and showers his character with praise? He'd have to be a leader in conditioning...wouldn't he?
 

USAFChief said:
Your math doesn't make much sense. A quick check of Boise State's published roster shows 24 of 109 players are from Idaho.

Didn't see how 36% of BSU's roster could be from Idaho when they only had 8 players commit to D1 schools in 2010, and it turns out I was right.

I think it's going to be difficult to find 8-10 worthy recruits from MN every year. There aren't that many B10 capable players every year to begin with, and not all of them will commit to the Gophers.
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It's not my math that's bad, but my memory. I did a survey on this earlier in the year, and it was California that represents about 36% of Boise's roster.

I think Minnesota does produce 8 recruits each year on average that have Big 10 potential. If we get better players from out of state and can't offer that many Minnesota players, that's fine with me. But the fact is we've passed on a number of players and taken what has turned out to be worse players in their place. This isn't the rule, but as many have already observed there are plenty of Div 1 players from Minnesota.
 

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