Pay for Play? Would Big Ten "De-Emphasis Instead?

[Iceland12]

Delaney has held the same thoughts since 1996. Lot of hypotheticals here. It's good to remember that history is full of people who said "It will never happen" before of course, it actually happened.

"Ohio State versus Mount Union in a regular-season football game? Wisconsin against Wisconsin-Whitewater in a regular-season basketball game?
This isn't an outreach program between Big Ten schools and their Division III neighbors. It's one possible future Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany envisions if the plaintiffs prevail in Ed O'Bannon vs. the NCAA. In a declaration filed last week in federal court in support of the NCAA's motion against class certification, Delany threatened that any outcome that results in athletes getting a piece of the schools' television revenue could force the schools of the Big Ten to de-emphasize athletics as the Ivy League's schools did decades ago.
"...it has been my longstanding belief that The Big Ten's schools would forgo the revenues in those circumstances and instead take steps to downsize the scope, breadth and activity of their athletic programs," Delany wrote. "Several alternatives to a 'pay for play' model exist, such as the Division III model, which does not offer any athletics-based grants-in-aid, and, among others, a need-based financial model. These alternatives would, in my view, be more consistent with The Big Ten's philosophy that the educational and lifetime economic benefits associated with a university education are the appropriate quid pro quo for its student athletes."
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If the Big Ten schools dropped athletic scholarships and moved to Division III or into the non-scholarship FCS realm occupied by the schools of the Ivy and Pioneer leagues, it would inject some intellectual honesty into this debate. Schools and leagues say they want to run amateur sports that enrich the collegiate experience, but then they run football and men's basketball like professional sports. This would mean a group of 14 schools leaving millions of dollars on the table to run true amateur athletic programs that exist only to enhance the university experience of their students.
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"It's not a bluff," Delany said. "It's a statement of belief. I think that's what would happen. I do not believe that the hypothetical case being put forth -- if it actually became the case -- that Big Ten institutions would engage in that."

The Big Ten likely would earn respect from the academic and non-sports community if it de-emphasized sports on principle rather than paying players. But the Big Ten isn't the Ivy League. Big-time sports are such an integral part of schools like Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State and Nebraska.

Delany has a good pulse on the Big Ten presidents, but he also has made them so much money in recent years. The league distributed a record $284 million last year. The Big Ten's upcoming TV deal will bring in even more profits. Would the presidents be willing to walk away and adopt a D-III model? I can't see it happening. As Staples points out, Delany also said the Big Ten likely wouldn't agree to a playoff in college football (it eventually did).

But Delany knows his bosses a lot better than we do. It would be interesting to see how the league reacts if the O'Bannon plaintiffs win."

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/co...ig-ten-jim-delany-ncaa-obannon/#ixzz2O0WkTZ7H

 

[highwayman]

This suit doesn't go to trial for 15 months. With appeals and cross-litigation, this won't be decided for a dozen years.

 

[RodentRampage]

If the Big Ten were to drop down, someone else would simply take their place. The MAC would rise in prominence, and other schools would fill the gap left behind by the Big Ten. Mankato State could move up and become a BCS team.

Someone needs to start a minor league for athletes who don't like the deal that a college scholarship gives them. They can have the luxurious lifestyle of a minor league baseball player.

 

[Lakeville Goldy]

What's he going to say? "Yep, all along we've wanted to pay the players, just haven't been able to convince the NCAA. Sure hope O'Bannon and company win!"

If he says the sky is falling and one juror hears about it and it affects their decision, he's done his job.

Unless the pay would make athletics unprofitable, I don't believe that they'd drop a division for a second. Athletics is the gateway to the B1G universities. Does anyone honestly think they would get as much research $ or as many top students without D1 FBS athletics? If so, why would any school ever move up?

If anything, I think the B1G and/or NCAA would work to change their TV and other contracts so that individual players aren't used for promotion, thus they'd have nothing to be paid for (that's the crux of the lawsuit - that players aren't compensated for the use of players' images, likeness and names to promote items and broadcasts).

 

[Go4Broke]

Pay for Play in the Big 10 would cause me to give up my Gopher football season tickets and start going to Vikings games. If I am going to spend money to see pro football players I am not going to do it to watch minor league players play second rate football.

 

[wait!what?]

that is so true.

 

[westcoastgopher11]

What's he going to say? "Yep, all along we've wanted to pay the players, just haven't been able to convince the NCAA. Sure hope O'Bannon and company win!"

If he says the sky is falling and one juror hears about it and it affects their decision, he's done his job.

Unless the pay would make athletics unprofitable, I don't believe that they'd drop a division for a second. Athletics is the gateway to the B1G universities. Does anyone honestly think they would get as much research $ or as many top students without D1 FBS athletics? If so, why would any school ever move up?

If anything, I think the B1G and/or NCAA would work to change their TV and other contracts so that individual players aren't used for promotion, thus they'd have nothing to be paid for (that's the crux of the lawsuit - that players aren't compensated for the use of players' images, likeness and names to promote items and broadcasts).

This is the credited response.

 

[Ski U Mah Gopher]

What's he going to say? "Yep, all along we've wanted to pay the players, just haven't been able to convince the NCAA. Sure hope O'Bannon and company win!"

If he says the sky is falling and one juror hears about it and it affects their decision, he's done his job.

Unless the pay would make athletics unprofitable, I don't believe that they'd drop a division for a second. Athletics is the gateway to the B1G universities. Does anyone honestly think they would get as much research $ or as many top students without D1 FBS athletics? If so, why would any school ever move up?

If anything, I think the B1G and/or NCAA would work to change their TV and other contracts so that individual players aren't used for promotion, thus they'd have nothing to be paid for (that's the crux of the lawsuit - that players aren't compensated for the use of players' images, likeness and names to promote items and broadcasts).

At least in basketball, most of the promotion of the game is the coach, they are the constant. Think about it, when the Lakers play the Heat; it's Kobe Bryant and the Lakers taking on LeBron James and the Heat. But if it's Duke vs Minnesota, it's Coach K and the Duke Blue Devils vs Tubby Smith's Minnesota Golden Gophers, not Ryan Kelly & the Blue Devils vs Trevor Mbakwe and the Gophers.

 

[FreakyDeke]

If the Big Ten were to drop down, someone else would simply take their place. The MAC would rise in prominence, and other schools would fill the gap left behind by the Big Ten. Mankato State could move up and become a BCS team.

Not sure if serious.

 

[Iceland12]

At least in basketball, most of the promotion of the game is the coach, they are the constant. Think about it, when the Lakers play the Heat; it's Kobe Bryant and the Lakers taking on LeBron James and the Heat. But if it's Duke vs Minnesota, it's Coach K and the Duke Blue Devils vs Tubby Smith's Minnesota Golden Gophers, not Ryan Kelly & the Blue Devils vs Trevor Mbakwe and the Gophers.

You're right. That's very true and has been since Underclassman were able to go the the NBA. Before that players got a lot more "play" and hype in the Media. It almost had to evolve that way. Once players started leaving after a year or two, writers and broadcasters saw the futility in developing a relationship with those players. They just left to soon. Even fans of many years started to need a scorecard to see who was who. The coaches though, would be there for a few years at least. Better spend your time getting to know him.

In the NBA it's usually the other way around. Even more so with the NBA's Model of a handful of "Globetrotters" and a lot of "Washington Generals" Stern saw the need to sell the Stars no matter what team they played for. Your Hornets, Bobcats, Raptors, Kings, Magic and for years Hawks and Clippers too, suck? Well come on down and pay to see Kobe, LeBron, Howard, McGrady etc., etc. It also helped ease the pain of Free Agency.

 

[RodentRampage]

Not sure if serious.

Yes, I'm serious. If the Big Ten decided to drop to D-III the market would be wide open, and that market would be filled. The Big Ten stadiums would draw D-III crowds and sit empty. Someone besides Ohio State would be the face of college football in Ohio. Someone would fill this market too. Without the competition from the U there's no reason that one of the Minnesota schools couldn't fill the market that the U left behind. Not being in the metro area isn't an obstacle, successful D-I schools are often not in metro areas. We hear so many people stating that being in the metro area has hindered the Gopher football program.

People just wouldn't continue to watch Big Ten football if it moved to D-III. But that doesn't mean they would give up football.

 

[Iceland12]

Yes, I'm serious. If the Big Ten decided to drop to D-III the market would be wide open, and that market would be filled. The Big Ten stadiums would draw D-III crowds and sit empty. Someone besides Ohio State would be the face of college football in Ohio. Someone would fill this market too. Without the competition from the U there's no reason that one of the Minnesota schools couldn't fill the market that the U left behind. Not being in the metro area isn't an obstacle, successful D-I schools are often not in metro areas. We hear so many people stating that being in the metro area has hindered the Gopher football program.

People just wouldn't continue to watch Big Ten football if it moved to D-III. But that doesn't mean they would give up football.

Two questions:

Do you think the same thing would happen if the SEC, Pac-!2 and ACC joined them rather than pay out a large % of their income in football and basketball?

Do you think that the smaller schools would move up if they had to share that revenue too?

 

[Ski U Master]

Pay for Play in the Big 10 would cause me to give up my Gopher football season tickets and start going to Vikings games. If I am going to spend money to see pro football players I am not going to do it to watch minor league players play second rate football.

This. The appeal for college football is that they are amateurs who are (presumably) playing for the school and a chance to get an education. Once they start paying players cash it's just a subpar pro league.

 

[RodentRampage]

Two questions:

Do you think the same thing would happen if the SEC, Pac-!2 and ACC joined them rather than pay out a large % of their income in football and basketball?

Do you think that the smaller schools would move up if they had to share that revenue too?

I don't know. All I'm saying is that there's a market for D-I sports, and if the Big Ten abandoned that market, someone else would fill it. If the other BCS conferences joined the Big Ten in moving to D-III, I don't think they would have to worry about paying out a lot of money, because they wouldn't have that money anymore.

We could have Western Michigan could be the face of football in the state of Michigan, and Ohio U could be the face of football in the state of Ohio.

 

[Dr.Don]

I just received my March 25, 2013 Time Magazine. There is an article titled "The Real March Madness?" In that issue there is an article written by Sean Gregory that talks about how college students are caught off guard by soaring athletic bills that fall under the heading of "annual student fees" that are paid by regular students on top of tuition, a large portion of which go to help finance their schools' intercollegiate athletic departments. Until now, no one has thought of this expense yet when talking about the high cost of higher education.

 

[mplsbadger]

Someone needs to start a minor league for athletes who don't like the deal that a college scholarship gives them. They can have the luxurious lifestyle of a minor league baseball player.

Well said. The schools should lease their stadiums to a league that covers the exact same cities during their off weeks. When they have to have a pig deliver the coin for the coin toss to the 50 yard line just to get ten fans to show up we can put the lie to the fantasy that the popularity of college football is attributable to the players.

 

[FreakyDeke]

Yes, I'm serious. If the Big Ten decided to drop to D-III the market would be wide open, and that market would be filled. The Big Ten stadiums would draw D-III crowds and sit empty. Someone besides Ohio State would be the face of college football in Ohio. Someone would fill this market too. Without the competition from the U there's no reason that one of the Minnesota schools couldn't fill the market that the U left behind. Not being in the metro area isn't an obstacle, successful D-I schools are often not in metro areas. We hear so many people stating that being in the metro area has hindered the Gopher football program.

People just wouldn't continue to watch Big Ten football if it moved to D-III. But that doesn't mean they would give up football.

Why do you watch the Gophers? Is it because of loyalty to the University of Minnesota or because you want to watch BCS football and they happen to be the nearest one?

 

[RodentRampage]

Why do you watch the Gophers? Is it because of loyalty to the University of Minnesota or because you want to watch BCS football and they happen to be the nearest one?

Why do tens of thousands of people show up to games at BCS schools, while only a small fraction show up for D-III games? Why aren't people glued to their couches watching Bemidji State football? It doesn't really matter what I would do, people would watch the state's dominant team. If the U abandoned that role, someone else would fill it. As it is, people are a lot less interested in attending games against lower-level teams, how much lower would the attendance be if Augsburg was making the road trip to play at TCF?

 

[FreakyDeke]

Why do tens of thousands of people show up to games at BCS schools, while only a small fraction show up for D-III games? Why aren't people glued to their couches watching Bemidji State football? It doesn't really matter what I would do, people would watch the state's dominant team. If the U abandoned that role, someone else would fill it. As it is, people are a lot less interested in attending games against lower-level teams, how much lower would the attendance be if Augsburg was making the road trip to play at TCF?

I think you've got it backwards. BCS schools are BCS schools BECAUSE people care to watch, not the other way around. There's nothing stopping Bemidji State from being a D1, BCS school, except that no one cares about them.

 

[RodentRampage]

I think you've got it backwards. BCS schools are BCS schools BECAUSE people care to watch, not the other way around. There's nothing stopping Bemidji State from being a D1, BCS school, except that no one cares about them.

No, I don't have it backwards. The BCS schools offer the highest level of college football. Stop offering that, and people stop watching. If the Twins were to move to the Northern League would people turn out in the same numbers? Minnesota has one college football team that represents the state of Minnesota. If Minnesota dropped to D-III, the state would likely still have one college football team that represented the state, but that team would no longer be the one fielded by the University of Minnesota.

 

[westcoastgopher11]

No, I don't have it backwards. The BCS schools offer the highest level of college football. Stop offering that, and people stop watching. If the Twins were to move to the Northern League would people turn out in the same numbers? Minnesota has one college football team that represents the state of Minnesota. If Minnesota dropped to D-III, the state would likely still have one college football team that represented the state, but that team would no longer be the one fielded by the University of Minnesota.

Foolish to try and say that the reason people watch BCS is because it is the highest level of college football. Drawing a line at college sports is an arbitrary divider when there are other development programs/systems that are undoubtedly as competitive or more competitive at the given age group. People go to sporting events because they have an emotional or other attachment to the given program. If people wanted to see the best at a given level then why isn't the AAA hockey in the US drawing 19,000+ people to its championship? Why is college baseball as successful as it is, considering many of the top prospects in that age range (18-22) are playing for minor league teams?

Look at the schools in the B1G, 12 of the 14 will have enrollments north of 30,000. That is an absolutely massive amount of people that have ties to a school/program. If you don't recognize what Delany is doing as classic misdirection/posturing you are a fool. The B1G is not going anywhere. He's doing what the leader of any large organization is supposed to do when the fundamental principle of his organization is under attack. He's firing up the troops by telling people the sky is falling, and digging in to fight the O'Bannon lawsuit.

 

[RodentRampage]

Compare D-I baseball attendance to D-III baseball attendance. Yes, there are a lot of people who are highly attached to their schools, but that attachment would end if they dropped to D-III.

I recognize that the Big Ten isn't actually going to go to D-III, I never said that I thought the Big Ten actually would go D-III. I was simply looking at the likely outcome if the Big Ten did this. It is not credible that the sports teams of the Big Ten schools would retain their popularity if they actually did go to D-III.

 

[FireDaveLee]

What exactly is the case about? What's the end desire of the plantiffs? Is it just to have ALL athletes paid? Receive higher stipends? Just athletes in the money making sports?

 

[4four4]

A perfect reason why we need somebody to start up Major Junior Football!

 

[imthewalrus]

Foolish to try and say that the reason people watch BCS is because it is the highest level of college football. Drawing a line at college sports is an arbitrary divider when there are other development programs/systems that are undoubtedly as competitive or more competitive at the given age group. People go to sporting events because they have an emotional or other attachment to the given program. If people wanted to see the best at a given level then why isn't the AAA hockey in the US drawing 19,000+ people to its championship? Why is college baseball as successful as it is, considering many of the top prospects in that age range (18-22) are playing for minor league teams?

Look at the schools in the B1G, 12 of the 14 will have enrollments north of 30,000. That is an absolutely massive amount of people that have ties to a school/program. If you don't recognize what Delany is doing as classic misdirection/posturing you are a fool. The B1G is not going anywhere. He's doing what the leader of any large organization is supposed to do when the fundamental principle of his organization is under attack. He's firing up the troops by telling people the sky is falling, and digging in to fight the O'Bannon lawsuit.

The B1G's commish dug out a 1995 argument he had made. And, in 2012 he is using it to go to war against the O'Bannon lawsuit. He also needs to enlist the help of the legislators who put teeth into Title IX...because this would be a real killer for Title IX. Basically, a win for the O'Bannon money-grab would pretty much force colleges to "join in..." or to "kill the NCAA..." as it exists today.

And, let's face it: does anyone REALLY think the nfl will stand idly by and watch ALL this competition come in from the O'Bannon lawsuit?

And, what tv network in their right mind wouldn't find ways to renegotiate their contracts that were held with the NCAA Schools to provide programming?

I'd say JD is BRILLIANT. Take the B1G D-III, watch the NCAA go belly up. Then form the SUPER-CONFERENCE into a governing body for just the super conference members.

Show the O' Bannon law suit fools just how to play the game. Take the NCAA down. Shut it down. Take away the content that the networks and cable outlets NEED. Make Major College Football a scarce commodity regardless of the temporary costs that going D-III would bring. Then, form a NEW, smaller Governing body that has NOTHING to do with the NCAA that the O'Bannon suit is attempting to extract all this money from.

Make FOOLS of ANY court of law that would assign billions to be put into trust for players until they graduated.

Believe me, I could Never support NCAA Football IF it was forced by a court to become a "play for pay" pawn.

The super conference teams would need to ditch the NCAA...become new entities and make the O'Bannon case ambulance chasers file so many new suits that they would be buried in their own paper work.

Kill that O'Bannon nonsense any and every way possible. Baffle 'em with b.s. Take 'em to school. Kill the thing that they are attempting to steal from and start ALL over again...for as many years as it may take.

NEVER turn this into a "...play for pay..." scam.

And...the NFL will NEVER stand idly by and accept this kind of black mail.

Bring on the SUPER CONFERENCE that totally splits from the NCAA. It may very well be time for the NCAA to cease to exist...

; 0 )

 

[imthewalrus]

What's he going to say? "Yep, all along we've wanted to pay the players, just haven't been able to convince the NCAA. Sure hope O'Bannon and company win!"

If he says the sky is falling and one juror hears about it and it affects their decision, he's done his job.

Unless the pay would make athletics unprofitable, I don't believe that they'd drop a division for a second. Athletics is the gateway to the B1G universities. Does anyone honestly think they would get as much research $ or as many top students without D1 FBS athletics? If so, why would any school ever move up?

If anything, I think the B1G and/or NCAA would work to change their TV and other contracts so that individual players aren't used for promotion, thus they'd have nothing to be paid for (that's the crux of the lawsuit - that players aren't compensated for the use of players' images, likeness and names to promote items and broadcasts).

Heck, I have to believe that the U of M could offer the services of their crack beer/wine sales brain-trust to make sure that ALL DI Football Programs showed an actual LOSS for all promotional efforts, sales of game content to networks/cable companies and even IF the O'Bannon forces of EVIL would win in court....they would get NOTHING but red-ink, losses and very poor profit margin management. Take THAT O'Bannon ambulance chasers...

; 0 )

 

[FireDaveLee]

That's kind of why I'm wondering what the desired outcome is by the plantiffs. Is it for past revenue? Is it just for athletes in sports that net a positive? Baseball is a revenue producer in southern schools, but is a complete black hole here at the U. Does that mean baseball players at LSU would receive money but players at the U wouldn't? Or would U players receive money & cause an even larger debt? Same with women's basketball comparing UConn & Minnesota.

I don't see how this can work while also following Title IX without shutting down LOTS of sports.

 

[highwayman]

That's kind of why I'm wondering what the desired outcome is by the plantiffs. Is it for past revenue? Is it just for athletes in sports that net a positive? Baseball is a revenue producer in southern schools, but is a complete black hole here at the U. Does that mean baseball players at LSU would receive money but players at the U wouldn't? Or would U players receive money & cause an even larger debt? Same with women's basketball comparing UConn & Minnesota.

I don't see how this can work while also following Title IX without shutting down LOTS of sports.

Hardly. Only 6 schools in the nation average over 5,000 a game. Except for LSU and maybe one or two of the other schools I doubt if they even make a dime.

Miss St charges $5-10 a ticket, South Carolina $10-20. LSU gets up to $60 a ticket. Now that's revenue.

I still bet no more than 3-4 programs make money.

 

[dpodoll68]

Hardly. Only 6 schools in the nation average over 5,000 a game. Maybe at LSU and one or two of the other schools do they even make a dime.

+1. Which is why I question the earlier statement in this thread that college baseball is "popular". Sure, in select pockets it's very popular, but by that logic we could call curling "popular".

 

[Lakeville Goldy]

And, let's face it: does anyone REALLY think the nfl will stand idly by and watch ALL this competition come in from the O'Bannon lawsuit?

Why would the NFL get involved? They already don't draft kids until after their true Junior years That's only one or two years of "competition", and you're assuming the pay would be similar, which would never happen.

Also, the suit is specific to getting compensated for their likeness being used for promotion. If the NCAA used me in a commercial I'd get paid, but if they use an athlete, the athlete does not. If O'Bannon and company win, someone may have to pay out for past instances. But going forward I would imagine the networks would have to cover any promotional fees for players they use to promote games. Like if ESPN would say "see Heisman Trophy candidate Phil Nelson take on the hated Badgers Saturday night in prime time for the national game of the week", ESPN might have to pay Phil Nelson, but no other player on the team would be paid. Or if they had Nelson in a standalone ad where he promoted the Gophers in the Rose Bowl. (A guy can dream, right???)

I don't honestly see this affecting Title 9, either. The same thing would hold. If the ad specifically used Rachel Banham (sp?) she'd get paid but no one else would.

I'd say JD is BRILLIANT. Take the B1G D-III, watch the NCAA go belly up. Then form the SUPER-CONFERENCE into a governing body for just the super conference members.

Why go down a division? If the endgame is to leave, leave. The problem is that wouldn't change the result of the law suit. If players were due compensation in one collegiate league, they would be due compensation in any league.