Our program's depth has improved.

[Ole]

I was simply impressed by the way we were able to fill in a few key injuries and come away with a W on Sat. I don't believe W Michigan is a bad team, time will tell if that was a quality win or not.

Shortell off the bench, Epping sliding over to C and Bak filling in, Shabazz being out and not getting exploited by a good passing offense.
Add to that all the different players contributing on D and the depth at WR, our depth being developed is a really good sign.

I wish we had one more QB on the roster so we wouldn't have to play Nelson.
He's gonna play IMO, and we'll lament it in 3 years.

If we win against Syracuse on Sat, then we all need to ratchet up our energy and expectations for this season. I don't see an automatic L on the schedule, and I see major flaws in our main rivals' teams'. This could go from a good to great season in the next 4 games.

 

[Iceland12]

I was simply impressed by the way we were able to fill in a few key injuries and come away with a W on Sat. I don't believe W Michigan is a bad team, time will tell if that was a quality win or not...
.

Get back to us in November.

 

[Bayfieldgopher]

Lack of depth was one of the major issues that Coach Kill quickly identified when he started. Depth should even be more improved next season. But there is a reason why Coach Kill has already burned 7 (?) RS this Fall and could be more.

Lets hope that Max stays on the field and he and Q can finish out the season. Then have JR. Max and RSFR Nelson duke it out for the #1. If not, at least Nelson will have some game time under his belt.

In the meantime, many GH-ers have annointed Nelson as the main guy down the road. Lets not forget the Strevelar kid who looks to be a steller athlete, probably as talented or even more than Nelson, and is off the to very good Sr. year.

 

[Breakin' The Plane]

Like most, I hate the idea of burning Nelson's RS. Still, maybe it's for the best. It would have been nice if Shortell had not played last year, but the game experience he got last year looks like it's helped him this year.

 

[Fuzzy Rumpton]

My hopes at QB '13-14: Shortell '15-16: Nelson '17-18 "insert experienced Junior". Would be great to have a two year rotation with an upper classman taking over each time.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Does anyone think that they RS Leidner because they see more potiential in him down the road. Nelson came out of HS pretty polished and Leidner had a huge summer before his senior year. Pure speculation on my part, but maybe they are R-Sing the right guy at this point.

 

[Ole]

Does anyone think that they RS Leidner because they see more potiential in him down the road. Nelson came out of HS pretty polished and Leidner had a huge summer before his senior year. Pure speculation on my part, but maybe they are R-Sing the right guy at this point.

I don't think Kill sees Nelson as the almighty savior of our program that others do. He's looking to win now, not save for the future. At this point Nelson is our #3 best QB, should Shortell go down, Kill isn't going to just throw in the towel on the season to save for the next few years. Wins are precious, even in a rebuilding season. I think Leidner would be the #3 if he had won the job in camp.

Playing as many freshmen as he did last year and this year, you need to understand that Kill is looking to get his best players on the field now and let the program grow and stock up talent as the depth improves and allows.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Nelson is the current flavor of the month but I wouldn't lose much sleep if we do end up burning his red shirt this season at some point. It is the difference between him being here in 2015 or 2016 and frankly if the next big thing at QB is not on the roster by 2015 then the coaching staff is not doing their job from a recruiting standpoint.

 

[dpodoll68]

It is the difference between him being here in 2015 or 2016 and frankly if the next big thing at QB is not on the roster by 2015 then the coaching staff is not doing their job from a recruiting standpoint.

Everyone keeps saying this, but two things are almost certain:

1. Nelson will be a far, far better college QB in 2016 than he is/will be in 2012.

2. Nelson as a 5th-year senior in 2016 with 2-4 years of starting experience will be far, far better than anyone we could acquire in the interim.

 

[mnsportsgeek]

Everyone keeps saying this, but two things are almost certain:

1. Nelson will be a far, far better college QB in 2016 than he is/will be in 2012.

2. Nelson as a 5th-year senior in 2016 with 2-4 years of starting experience will be far, far better than anyone we could acquire in the interim.

This...Personally, I would love to keep the trend we have going of having a Junior ready to step in when the senior graduates. 4 year starters like Matt Barkley are great, but I'd be willing to bet that a program that consistently starts juniors and seniors at QB is far better off overall.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Everyone keeps saying this, but two things are almost certain:

1. Nelson will be a far, far better college QB in 2016 than he is/will be in 2012.

2. Nelson as a 5th-year senior in 2016 with 2-4 years of starting experience will be far, far better than anyone we could acquire in the interim.

First off let me say I am not disputing the fact that redshirting Nelson is the ideal scenario to all of this. To your points above.

1. Odds are that is probably true but it is not a guarantee. In general experience never hurts though. Coaching staff however is not playing for 2016, they are playing for 2012 so if Nelson is the guy they think gives them the best shot at the W in 2012 he will be in there regardless of how good he may or may not be in 2016.

2. This one I have an issue with. The kid has never taken a single college snap in a game. We have no idea how good he is going to be. He was well regarded coming out of high school but we are not talking about a 5* can't miss NFL prospect. As much as we all hope he will be great there is just as much liekelyhood that he will be a total bust, or that he will get hurt. It is foolish to try and project the roster out more then a year or two in advance because there are way too many unknowns in terms of injuries and new additions. And I will say it again, Jerry Kill is not thinking about saving a guy for the future if he can help him now because he won't be around for that future if the team isn't winning in the present.

 

[dpodoll68]

First off let me say I am not disputing the fact that redshirting Nelson is the ideal scenario to all of this. To your points above.

1. Odds are that is probably true but it is not a guarantee. In general experience never hurts though. Coaching staff however is not playing for 2016, they are playing for 2012 so if Nelson is the guy they think gives them the best shot at the W in 2012 he will be in there regardless of how good he may or may not be in 2016.

2. This one I have an issue with. The kid has never taken a single college snap in a game. We have no idea how good he is going to be. He was well regarded coming out of high school but we are not talking about a 5* can't miss NFL prospect. As much as we all hope he will be great there is just as much liekelyhood that he will be a total bust, or that he will get hurt. It is foolish to try and project the roster out more then a year or two in advance because there are way too many unknowns in terms of injuries and new additions. And I will say it again, Jerry Kill is not thinking about saving a guy for the future if he can help him now because he won't be around for that future if the team isn't winning in the present.

There is certainly no guarantee that Nelson will be any good. I am also not advocating that they keep his redshirt this year if it's the difference between winning and losing games. If Shortell goes down with a serious injury, Nelson has to be the guy. Has to be. That being said, the general tenor seems to be "let's play him anyway, we can certainly get someone better by 2016", which I couldn't disagree with more. If he's even an average QB, there's virtually no chance we will be able to put a better player than him on the field in 2016 if for no other reason than experience.

 

[MNVCGUY]

There is certainly no guarantee that Nelson will be any good. I am also not advocating that they keep his redshirt this year if it's the difference between winning and losing games. If Shortell goes down with a serious injury, Nelson has to be the guy. Has to be. That being said, the general tenor seems to be "let's play him anyway, we can certainly get someone better by 2016", which I couldn't disagree with more. If he's even an average QB, there's virtually no chance we will be able to put a better player than him on the field in 2016 if for no other reason than experience.

I have not really picked up on that line of thinking. I think most people would prefer he not see the field this year but maybe I have missed some threads where people want to see him on the field this year no matter what. While Gray is hurt I play Shortell 100% of the game or if we get into a garbage time situation (seems unlikely) then go with a Foreman or Maye or someone else just to fill those snaps. I would be very against burning Nelson's redshirt for meaningless action and I don't think the coaching staff would do that anyway. The only reason he plays this year is if he is viewed as the best option to get a win in my opinion at least.

 

[dpodoll68]

I think most people would prefer he not see the field this year but maybe I have missed some threads where people want to see him on the field this year no matter what.

You said earlier in this thread:

if the next big thing at QB is not on the roster by 2015 then the coaching staff is not doing their job from a recruiting standpoint.

I interpret that as, "if we have to burn his redshirt, nbd, we'll have someone better by 2015/2016 anyway". Was that not the sentiment you intended to convey?

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I think Nelson is the 3rd string because he can run. My guess is that the staff knows that if either Nelson or Leidner are playing QB, we are probably in a little trouble. Therefore, I think Nelson gives us more of a running option and I think our staff will probably really tone down the offense and run as much as possible. That's just my opinion. . .


As far as burning Nelson's RS, if Shortell gets hurt, I don't think there is much of an option.

 

[MNVCGUY]

You said earlier in this thread:



I interpret that as, "if we have to burn his redshirt, nbd, we'll have someone better by 2015/2016 anyway". Was that not the sentiment you intended to convey?

If Nelson plays this year his senior season is 2015. Over the next 3 years if the coaches can't recruit the heir apparent to guys like Nelson and Leidner they are not doing their job. Nelson has been built up on this board as some kind of savior which is a lot to ask of a guy who has not even seen the field yet. I would sincerely hope that over the course of the next few seasons this staff can identify and recruit another QB that would have people as whipped up as they are about Nelson.

My sentiment is this, in a perfect world if you can red shirt him you red shirt him, but if he becomes the best option at QB this season then you play him. And in general you are correct that for a number of reasons I see burning his RS this year if it happens as no big deal.

 

[dpodoll68]

If Nelson plays this year his senior season is 2015. Over the next 3 years if the coaches can't recruit the heir apparent to guys like Nelson and Leidner they are not doing their job. Nelson has been built up on this board as some kind of savior which is a lot to ask of a guy who has not even seen the field yet. I would sincerely hope that over the course of the next few seasons this staff can identify and recruit another QB that would have people as whipped up as they are about Nelson.

My sentiment is this, in a perfect world if you can red shirt him you red shirt him, but if he becomes the best option at QB this season then you play him. And in general you are correct that for a number of reasons I see burning his RS this year if it happens as no big deal.

See, I disagree thoroughly. I don't see/haven't seen anyone calling Nelson the savior for this season. People are hopeful for him in 2013 and beyond. I also don't agree that, if Nelson is even average (hopefully he will be much better), that the Gophers will have anyone who will be better than him in 2016. They may have a young QB who is expected to lead in the years after, but it's extremely doubtful that anyone would be better in 2016, assuming Nelson is even just average. An average 5th-year DI-A QB is better than 80-90% of all DI-A underclassmen QBs.

 

[MNVCGUY]

See, I disagree thoroughly. I don't see/haven't seen anyone calling Nelson the savior for this season. People are hopeful for him in 2013 and beyond. I also don't agree that, if Nelson is even average (hopefully he will be much better), that the Gophers will have anyone who will be better than him in 2016. They may have a young QB who is expected to lead in the years after, but it's extremely doubtful that anyone would be better in 2016, assuming Nelson is even just average. An average 5th-year DI-A QB is better than 80-90% of all DI-A underclassmen QBs.

At this point we are just going back and forth on the same thing. We have both stated we would play Nelson if it meant the difference between winning and losing games this year and we would also both like to see him RS this year if at all possible. I think where we differ is I am far less concerned about the roster makeup in 2016 because in my opinion there are far too many unknowns that will take place between now and then.

 

[dpodoll68]

At this point we are just going back and forth on the same thing. We have both stated we would play Nelson if it meant the difference between winning and losing games this year and we would also both like to see him RS this year if at all possible. I think where we differ is I am far less concerned about the roster makeup in 2016 because in my opinion there are far too many unknowns that will take place between now and then.

You are correct. I guess my point is that you can't be trivial with redshirts. I'm sure in 2008 people were thinking, "We can play all of these guys right away, we need them on the field and Brewster is such an amazing recruiter that we'll have far better players in place by 2012." Instead, 2008 was Brewster's best class by far, and we could have really used those guys this year. How much better would this squad be with guys like Lair, Kirksey, and McKnight? How much better off would we be if Gray were a Jr. instead of a Sr. this year? I am in agreement with play the guys who should be playing, but wasting redshirts for an occasional play here and there (or on special teams) has far-reaching consequences. If Nelson needs to play because Shortell is out (not dinged up, needs a breather, or helmet comes off), then great, but we can't play him just to play him. I know that's not what you're saying, but I'm saying it is a big deal if we burn his redshirt for the reasons outlined above.

 

[Ski U Mah Gopher]

I would think the coaches have a contingency if Shortell has to come out because of a helmet violation (which is unlikely because the only way his helmet comes off is a facemask, which is the only exception). Probably KJ Maye. If it is an injury, then it will most likely be Nelson.

 

[50PoundHead]

I wish we had a bit more depth on the O-line. Losing Gjere hurt. But Epping's versatility is very helpful.

Things look solid at pretty much every other position set. Kudos to Kill for getting them ready and throwing them into game action to get their feet wet. I like the fact that he rotates a lot of guys into games either for a play or two or in certain situations (especially on defense).

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

See, I disagree thoroughly. I don't see/haven't seen anyone calling Nelson the savior for this season. People are hopeful for him in 2013 and beyond. I also don't agree that, if Nelson is even average (hopefully he will be much better), that the Gophers will have anyone who will be better than him in 2016. They may have a young QB who is expected to lead in the years after, but it's extremely doubtful that anyone would be better in 2016, assuming Nelson is even just average. An average 5th-year DI-A QB is better than 80-90% of all DI-A underclassmen QBs.

Or Nelson could get a concussion later this year or next spring and never play for the Gophers again.

This is a ridiculous argument. "Tomorrow is promised to no one". Coaches get fired for making dumb decisions like hanging on to Redshirts for hopes 4 years from now.

And yes, I've been one of the ones who has been saying all along that if they don't have a quality QB to step in for 2016, this staff won't be around to see it anyway. Nobody has ONE SINGLE CLUE what kind of QB Phil Nelson will be in 2013, much less 2015 and/or 2016. Anybody who says otherwise is fooling themselves.

 

[John Galt]

I think Nelson is the 3rd string because he can run. My guess is that the staff knows that if either Nelson or Leidner are playing QB, we are probably in a little trouble. Therefore, I think Nelson gives us more of a running option and I think our staff will probably really tone down the offense and run as much as possible. That's just my opinion. . .


As far as burning Nelson's RS, if Shortell gets hurt, I don't think there is much of an option.

Exactly. This is also no doubt part of the reason we brought in 2 QBs during this class. With Gray's Gopher career over in hopefully a little over 3 months, we'd be in the same position next year with Streveler or TBD QB having to be 3rd string.

 

[Sportsfan24]

As usual what is being lost (or not thought of at all) is the best interest of the player. Nelson would be a boarder line fool to take the field 4 games in as the 2/3rd team QB.

 

[mnsports1]

As usual what is being lost (or not thought of at all) is the best interest of the player. Nelson would be a boarder line fool to take the field 4 games in as the 2/3rd team QB.

Maybe HE is TEAM player and would willingly do it for the seniors and upperclassmen if he gave the TEAM the best chance to win.

 

[GopherHomer]

As usual what is being lost (or not thought of at all) is the best interest of the player. Nelson would be a boarder line fool to take the field 4 games in as the 2/3rd team QB.

Was Shortell a "fool" for "taking the field" against USC? Should he have refused? Not sure what you're getting at here. Obviously, we can agree it would be better for Nelson's development to not have to play this year, but he is part of this team and if injuries dictate, he'll have to step up. True freshman are thrown into mix every year...even QBs.

 

[dpodoll68]

Or Nelson could get a concussion later this year or next spring and never play for the Gophers again.

This is a ridiculous argument. "Tomorrow is promised to no one". Coaches get fired for making dumb decisions like hanging on to Redshirts for hopes 4 years from now.

And yes, I've been one of the ones who has been saying all along that if they don't have a quality QB to step in for 2016, this staff won't be around to see it anyway. Nobody has ONE SINGLE CLUE what kind of QB Phil Nelson will be in 2013, much less 2015 and/or 2016. Anybody who says otherwise is fooling themselves.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that if Nelson is needed, we should play him. Emphasis on "needed". I don't think people should be cavalier and say "nbd". It is a big deal if your 3rd-string QB is playing in a non-blowout, especially if that player is a true freshman and a presumed future starter. Do you think it was a good use of Da'Jon McKnight's redshirt for him to have 1 catch on the entire season, a 22-yd TD reception with a minute left in a 34-21 loss to OSU that wasn't remotely as close as the score would indicate? Do you think it was a good use of Brandon Kirksey's redshirt for him to have 8 total tackles on the season? Do you think either of those guys would have helped this season? How much of an upgrade would Kirksey as a 5th-yr Sr. be over Botticelli? How nice would it have been to have McKnight as a 5th-yr Sr. this season and leave the redshirts on one or both of McDonald and Harbison?

All I'm saying is that it is a big deal. You don't throw a guy's redshirt season away so he can play in a few plays here and there, because you never know how good he will be down the road. If he is needed, play him. Do you think McKnight's 1 catch or Kirksey's 8 tackles were big difference-makers? Were they needed in the 2008 season? I'd say they sure as hell are needed now. We'll never know because Brewster idiotically threw away their redshirts. I fear the same thing has already happened to McDonald, and I don't want Kill to do the same with Nelson.

 

[MNVCGUY]

As usual what is being lost (or not thought of at all) is the best interest of the player. Nelson would be a boarder line fool to take the field 4 games in as the 2/3rd team QB.

Good lord the coaches won't play him just to play him. But if he is the best option we have at QB he can/should/will be the starter at that point, end of story. I can guarantee they want to red shirt him if humanly possible but I don't care if we are in week 8 if the coaches look at our QB situation and say Nelson is the guy that can win us this game then he 100% should be in there red shirt be damned.

On the point regarding Kirksey and McKnight, you have to look at more then just stats. I don't know the exact circumstances that led to McKnight and Kirksey playing but I would be wiling to bet it had something to do with there not being a better option avaialble. Coaches are not idiots, they understand the value of holding a guy out his freshman year if they have a better alternative on the roster. So if a guy is on the field as a true freshman it means the coaches, who evaluate the hell out of their own players, have looked at the different options and come to the conclusion that player is the best option for the team to win games.

Coaches can't afford to project 5 years down the line, they have to worry about the present and then deal with the future. I am not 100% sold on Kill as the savior of the program from a coaching standpoint but I trust him and his staff to know which players should be on the field each week.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that if Nelson is needed, we should play him. Emphasis on "needed". I don't think people should be cavalier and say "nbd". It is a big deal if your 3rd-string QB is playing in a non-blowout, especially if that player is a true freshman and a presumed future starter. Do you think it was a good use of Da'Jon McKnight's redshirt for him to have 1 catch on the entire season, a 22-yd TD reception with a minute left in a 34-21 loss to OSU that wasn't remotely as close as the score would indicate? Do you think it was a good use of Brandon Kirksey's redshirt for him to have 8 total tackles on the season? Do you think either of those guys would have helped this season? How much of an upgrade would Kirksey as a 5th-yr Sr. be over Botticelli? How nice would it have been to have McKnight as a 5th-yr Sr. this season and leave the redshirts on one or both of McDonald and Harbison?

All I'm saying is that it is a big deal. You don't throw a guy's redshirt season away so he can play in a few plays here and there, because you never know how good he will be down the road. If he is needed, play him. Do you think McKnight's 1 catch or Kirksey's 8 tackles were big difference-makers? Were they needed in the 2008 season? I'd say they sure as hell are needed now. We'll never know because Brewster idiotically threw away their redshirts. I fear the same thing has already happened to McDonald, and I don't want Kill to do the same with Nelson.

I completely understand what you're saying. I guess I'm just referring in general to the almost paranoia over preserving a player's redshirt. We'd all love for people to preserve their eligibility if they're not able to contribute significantly THIS year and would be better served with a 5th year.

Let's just say it seems like there are some extreme perspectives on the "preserving" side of the argument that I just don't understand.

As far as some of the instances/players that have been mentioned, I think a couple things come into play. First, do you REALLY know at the time you burn the redshirt that they are NOT going to contribute more for the remainder of the season? Usually, that's really tough to tell. Secondly, I think it's kind of hard to bridge these thoughts and arguments for certain players across coaching regimes. Different staffs, different philosophies.

As far as Nelson's case, specifically, I'll go out on a limb and say that at some point in the next 2-3 years they'll bring in somebody at that position that can more than fill the bill when his number is called.

 

[dpodoll68]

McKnight had Decker, Kuznia, Spry, Green, and Brodrick Smith (at least) ahead of him. You don't play a guy to get 1 catch on the season if he's your 6th receiver, at best. We also threw a lot to both TEs (Simmons and Tow-Arnett) as well as to our RBs (Bennett and Eskridge mostly).

Kirksey played DE his freshman year, and had VanDeSteeg, Campbell, Ray Henderson, Jacobs, McKinley, and Onwuachi (at least) in front of him. Many of those guys have had a cup of coffee or more in the NFL. You don't play your 4th-string DE (at best) to get 8 tackles on the season, especially when he's behind several fringe NFL prospects.

Saying "coaches are not idiots" is not a valid argument, because you're implying that they don't make mistakes. Coaches are people - they can and do make mistakes. I'm not saying they are idiots, but they quit often make idiotic decisions. That's why they get fired so much and so often. Kill is the rare coach who has never been fired in his career, but he's not above making stupid decisions. I questioned many of his decisions to play true freshmen last year, and I'm doing so again this year, and I'm sure I will be in the future. If he plays Nelson when he's not needed, it is a big deal, and I will absolutely question it.