One and Done's ???

[Section201]

I am interested in what the opinions are regarding "One and Done's".

Personaly I would like to get rid of the current sutuation. I fail to understand how the NBA can refuse a job to an 18 year old to begin with.

These kids do not want to go to college. They do not want to go to class or be students. As Coach Knight has said these kids wind up going to a few classes one semester and they bolt.

They want to play in the NBA and I say let them do so without having to pretend to go to college.

Lastly, is there some scholarship implication for schools that have One and Done's ?

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

If 18 Year Olds Can Go To Iraq, Afghanistan, Or MLB

They oughta be able to go to NBA, too.

 

[SeemoreButts]

Yes on BOTH Section201 and Friend of Tubby.

 

[Gopherocious]

I would like the format the MLB uses where you can go to the pros right after college, but if you decide to go to college, you need to stay for 3 years and can't declare for the draft till after your junior season.

 

[WilliamsArenaGuy]

I would like the format the MLB uses where you can go to the pros right after college, but if you decide to go to college, you need to stay for 3 years and can't declare for the draft till after your junior season.

That would be outstanding for college basketball. And fair for all, I think. I've heard this before. Has the NCAA ever even discussed it? I would hope so.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

I would like the format the MLB uses where you can go to the pros right after college, but if you decide to go to college, you need to stay for 3 years and can't declare for the draft till after your junior season.

NHL allows 18 year olds. So does pro tennis.

 

[Gopherocious]

I would like the format the MLB uses where you can go to the pros right after college, but if you decide to go to college, you need to stay for 3 years and can't declare for the draft till after your junior season.

Whoops..typo. That should say players can to to the pros after HIGH SCHOOL but if they choose to go to college, they must stay for 3 years. Sorry for the confusion....

 

[Dr.Don]

We allow 18-year old Cobber gals to wash windshields at Walmart up here in Moorhead/Fargo. And wallet buyers must also be 18 now. No one-and-done with that, though!

 

[Gopher Warrior]

That would be outstanding for college basketball. And fair for all, I think. I've heard this before. Has the NCAA ever even discussed it? I would hope so.

This topic has nothing to do with a decision the NCAA has made or will make.

The NBA has discussed a 2 year situation that would be similar (i.e., you can declare after high school, or go to college.. if you go to college, you're there two years before being eligible for the NBA draft). The union is not a big fan of this idea.

 

[WilliamsArenaGuy]

This topic has nothing to do with a decision the NCAA has made or will make.

The NBA has discussed a 2 year situation that would be similar (i.e., you can declare after high school, or go to college.. if you go to college, you're there two years before being eligible for the NBA draft). The union is not a big fan of this idea.

Right. I knew that too. I am glad it has at least been discussed, although I prefer three years to two.

 

[Section201]

Gw

This topic has nothing to do with a decision the NCAA has made or will make.

The NBA has discussed a 2 year situation that would be similar (i.e., you can declare after high school, or go to college.. if you go to college, you're there two years before being eligible for the NBA draft). The union is not a big fan of this idea.

GW, you among a few others here may have a better understanding of the things that affect the scholarship counts of any school. Doesn't One and Done's come into the agorithm somehow?

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

GW, you among a few others here may have a better understanding of the things that affect the scholarship counts of any school. Doesn't One and Done's come into the agorithm somehow?

Hurts APR score. Could result in lost scholarship(s).

 

[Section201]

FOT

Hurts APR score. Could result in lost scholarship(s).

Thanks, FOT,

After a few mind boggling minutes at the NCAA APR url I have to ask if they are serious?

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaa...s/Education+and+Research/Academic+Reform/APR/

Why not just make any "One and Done" cost the forfeiture of that scholarship for the year following "One and Done's" departure?

 

[The Big L]

I would like the format the MLB uses where you can go to the pros right after high school, but if you decide to go to college, you need to stay for 3 years and can't declare for the draft till after your junior season.

Completely agree, this would be ideal.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

GW, you among a few others here may have a better understanding of the things that affect the scholarship counts of any school. Doesn't One and Done's come into the agorithm somehow?

Not directly. You could talk theory for days (for example, 'balanced classes' being good - having a good mix of freshman/sophomores/juniors/seniors is better than 10 seniors or 10 freshman in your program, planning, etc.) about how it's a negative with regard to how your scholarships are used.. but, nothing directly.

The players are on one year scholarships. If a guy leaves, that's simply a scholarship you don't renew.

With regard to the APR... I think* the calculation is essentially based on (players in good academic standing + players staying in school) divided by (players + players that could stay in school)... 1 point for each player's academic standing and, if applicable, 1 point for retention of that player. If a guy leaves early to go pro, and is in good academic standing, the school get the point.. obviously they don't get the retention point, however, they are not penalized the retention point either. So, if you think of a player that is in good academic standing and returns, you'd get 2 out of 2 points, or 100%. If you think of a player that is in good academic standing and goes pro, you'd get 1 out of 1 point, or 100%.

So again.. not a direct impact.. but, if you have other issues in your program, not getting the additional 1/1 could 'hurt' your calculation mathematically.

The short answer is no. A guy going pro early doesn't hurt your scholarship count.

 

[Section201]

GW

Not directly. You could talk theory for days (for example, 'balanced classes' being good - having a good mix of freshman/sophomores/juniors/seniors is better than 10 seniors or 10 freshman in your program, planning, etc.) about how it's a negative with regard to how your scholarships are used.. but, nothing directly.

The players are on one year scholarships. If a guy leaves, that's simply a scholarship you don't renew.

With regard to the APR... I think* the calculation is essentially based on (players in good academic standing + players staying in school) divided by (players + players that could stay in school)... 1 point for each player's academic standing and, if applicable, 1 point for retention of that player. If a guy leaves early to go pro, and is in good academic standing, the school get the point.. obviously they don't get the retention point, however, they are not penalized the retention point either. So, if you think of a player that is in good academic standing and returns, you'd get 2 out of 2 points, or 100%. If you think of a player that is in good academic standing and goes pro, you'd get 1 out of 1 point, or 100%.

So again.. not a direct impact.. but, if you have other issues in your program, not getting the additional 1/1 could 'hurt' your calculation mathematically.

The short answer is no. A guy going pro early doesn't hurt your scholarship count.

Thank You GW for the excellent explanation.

 

[Ski U Mah Gopher]

I would like the format the MLB uses where you can go to the pros right after college, but if you decide to go to college, you need to stay for 3 years and can't declare for the draft till after your junior season.

+1

 

[Go4Gold]

I would like the format the MLB uses where you can go to the pros right after college, but if you decide to go to college, you need to stay for 3 years and can't declare for the draft till after your junior season.

Exactly what I was going to post. Well done.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

Not directly. You could talk theory for days (for example, 'balanced classes' being good - having a good mix of freshman/sophomores/juniors/seniors is better than 10 seniors or 10 freshman in your program, planning, etc.) about how it's a negative with regard to how your scholarships are used.. but, nothing directly.

The players are on one year scholarships. If a guy leaves, that's simply a scholarship you don't renew.

With regard to the APR... I think* the calculation is essentially based on (players in good academic standing + players staying in school) divided by (players + players that could stay in school)... 1 point for each player's academic standing and, if applicable, 1 point for retention of that player. If a guy leaves early to go pro, and is in good academic standing, the school get the point.. obviously they don't get the retention point, however, they are not penalized the retention point either. So, if you think of a player that is in good academic standing and returns, you'd get 2 out of 2 points, or 100%. If you think of a player that is in good academic standing and goes pro, you'd get 1 out of 1 point, or 100%.

So again.. not a direct impact.. but, if you have other issues in your program, not getting the additional 1/1 could 'hurt' your calculation mathematically.

The short answer is no. A guy going pro early doesn't hurt your scholarship count.

Not exactly how I understand APR.

Player who leaves early in good academic standing, you get 3 of 4 points toward APR score.

If academics not OK either, you get 2 of 4 points. You need (up to) 48 out of 52 points for 925 APR score - based on 13 scholarship players.

 

[Section201]

FOT

Not exactly how I understand APR.

Player who leaves early in good academic standing, you get 3 of 4 points toward APR score.

If academics not OK either, you get 2 of 4 points. You need (up to) 48 out of 52 points for 925 APR score - based on 13 scholarship players.

So in your understanding, what does it take to lose 1 scholarship? Does having 47 points cause the loss of 1 scholarship?

 

[Gopher Warrior]

Not exactly how I understand APR.

Player who leaves early in good academic standing, you get 3 of 4 points toward APR score.

If academics not OK either, you get 2 of 4 points. You need (up to) 48 out of 52 points for 925 APR score - based on 13 scholarship players.

Yeah, I think you're a bit confused... the trick is to remember we're not talking about incremental points here - at the end of the day, it's all about percentages. "925 APR score" really means 92.5%. Everything is based on percentages.

Points are awarded per semester - so the concept of 4 points is invalid unless qualified. You get 1 point for academics, 1 point for continuing, per semester. If you looked a guy over the course of a full year that was a freshman in college... and in the first semester he was in good academic standing, and continued on, the school would get 2 of 2 points. Separately from the facts and circumstances of the first semester, if he left school after the second semester in good academic standing to go pro, the school would get 1 of 1 point. (not 1 of 2 points)

Again, the 'score' is a percentage... so mathematically a player going pro can impact the calculation (you're losing another 1 to the numerator and 1 to the denominator, which is dilutive)... but you do not go 0/1.

Section201 - everything is negotiable. Scoring less than 92.5% means different things to different institutions on different days... excuses can be made... in other words, back to my quick answer: there is no direct impact.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

Yeah, I think you're a bit confused... the trick is to remember we're not talking about incremental points here - at the end of the day, it's all about percentages. "925 APR score" really means 92.5%. Everything is based on percentages.

Points are awarded per semester - so the concept of 4 points is invalid unless qualified. You get 1 point for academics, 1 point for continuing, per semester. If you looked a guy over the course of a full year that was a freshman in college... and in the first semester he was in good academic standing, and continued on, the school would get 2 of 2 points. Separately from the facts and circumstances of the first semester, if he left school after the second semester in good academic standing to go pro, the school would get 1 of 1 point. (not 1 of 2 points)

Again, the 'score' is a percentage... so mathematically a player going pro can impact the calculation (you're losing another 1 to the numerator and 1 to the denominator, which is dilutive)... but you do not go 0/1.

Section201 - everything is negotiable. Scoring less than 92.5% means different things to different institutions on different days... excuses can be made... in other words, back to my quick answer: there is no direct impact.

No, I'm not. Player leaves = lose 1 of 4 points. Player leaves with bad academics = lose 2 of 4.

With 13 scholarships, you can only lose 4 of 52 points in a year. Losing 1 or 2 (above) hurts.

 

[Section201]

GW

Yeah, I think you're a bit confused... the trick is to remember we're not talking about incremental points here - at the end of the day, it's all about percentages. "925 APR score" really means 92.5%. Everything is based on percentages.

Points are awarded per semester - so the concept of 4 points is invalid unless qualified. You get 1 point for academics, 1 point for continuing, per semester. If you looked a guy over the course of a full year that was a freshman in college... and in the first semester he was in good academic standing, and continued on, the school would get 2 of 2 points. Separately from the facts and circumstances of the first semester, if he left school after the second semester in good academic standing to go pro, the school would get 1 of 1 point. (not 1 of 2 points)

Again, the 'score' is a percentage... so mathematically a player going pro can impact the calculation (you're losing another 1 to the numerator and 1 to the denominator, which is dilutive)... but you do not go 0/1.

Section201 - everything is negotiable. Scoring less than 92.5% means different things to different institutions on different days... excuses can be made... in other words, back to my quick answer: there is no direct impact.

GW,

Yipes.

Seems like they purposely made it full of wiggle room and pretty hard for "one and done's" to have much direct and immediate impact on the number of scholarships available.

In looking at the NCAA url, if I am reading it right, The U of M hoops team has an APR of 939.
http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/apr2008/428_2008_apr.pdf

I wonder what impact Al Nolen might have on the team's number.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

No, I'm not. Player leaves = lose 1 of 4 points. Player leaves with bad academics = lose 2 of 4.

With 13 scholarships, you can only lose 4 of 52 points in a year. Losing 1 or 2 (above) hurts.

That's fine - sorry I called you confused - let me be more clear - you're wrong.

(although I think it's clear you're confused as well)

Those that have made the rules, really have not made the rules.. FOT has!

Those silly folks at the NCAA are talking about this concept of "0 for 2".. how crazy, right, FOT?

I wonder what impact Al Nolen might have on the team's number.

Depends on what time period you're looking at and what his status is after this semester... he 'controls' ... let's say there are 12 scholarship players this semester... so if he's back next year, then for the semester, his eff ups in the classroom hurt 1/24th.. or 42 points... for the particular semester... for the year with Royce and Al (perhaps Trevor?).. don't know the score will be real impressive this year alone.. which will obviously impact multi-year calcs going forward.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

That's fine - sorry I called you confused - let me be more clear - you're wrong.

(although I think it's clear you're confused as well)

Those that have made the rules, really have not made the rules.. FOT has!

Those silly folks at the NCAA are talking about this concept of "0 for 2".. how crazy, right, FOT?



Depends on what time period you're looking at and what his status is after this semester... he 'controls' ... let's say there are 12 scholarship players this semester... so if he's back next year, then for the semester, his eff ups in the classroom hurt 1/24th.. or 42 points... for the particular semester... for the year with Royce and Al (perhaps Trevor?).. don't know the score will be real impressive this year alone.. which will obviously impact multi-year calcs going forward.

You lose 1 point (1-for-2) if a player leaves for whatever reason. The 0-for-2 rule applies if the player has poor academics, too.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

GW,

Yipes.

Seems like they purposely made it full of wiggle room and pretty hard for "one and done's" to have much direct and immediate impact on the number of scholarships available.

In looking at the NCAA url, if I am reading it right, The U of M hoops team has an APR of 939.
http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/apr2008/428_2008_apr.pdf

I wonder what impact Al Nolen might have on the team's number.

It's a 4-year number. The 2010 report will include 2009 academic results (not Nolen this year). I believe Gophers will have good number (close to 1000 APR) for 2009.

 

[Section201]

GW & FOT

Thank you both for your input and discussion on the APR.

I appreciate it.

It certainly seems the mechanism could be simplified if the NCAA wanted to. Obviously they don't.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

You lose 1 point (1-for-2) if a player leaves for whatever reason. The 0-for-2 rule applies if the player has poor academics, too.

Sorry that you're having such a tough time believing me. The APR is new and changes, including the change that now does not directly penalize programs, with respect to the retention point, if a player leaves early to go pro - and for what it's worth, it's not simply a "4 year number". The time period looked at (usually 1 year and 4 year) changes for different purposes and has different consequences to programs.

Here is a link to ncaa.org that describes the directive to address situation where the player can become, for example, a 1/1. This includes certain transfers and kids leaving school to play professionally.

New reading, apparently, for FOT

As the document states, "...it removes the lost points from both the numerator and the denominator. Thus the 1/2 becomes a 1/1, or the 0/2 becomes a 0/1 or 0/0."

I have never gotten too wrapped up into the arguments for or against the 1 year past high school and 19 years old rule the NBA has... so, I will reserve my right to do a 180 on my thinking here at any moment.. but,

- Most important is that the NBA runs its own business. The league and the players' union agreed to this requirement, so for me the discussion as to what's fair ends there. A business made a decision, so I will live with that, end of story.

- Selfishly I'd prefer a 2 year / 20 years old requirement so that we get to see some of these young men compete at the collegiate level for more than 1 year.

- I hear the cry of "wah wah wah, the kids don't want to go to school so why make them?" I don't know that if 'argument' really has any basis in the real discussion.. but, some thoughts:
- It's not about education.
- There are plenty of kids that are in college playing basketball that don't want to be taking classes. Many of these kids get little out of their college 'education' even though they are there for more than one year.
- No program is required to take kids that don't want to study hard and want to bolt after one year. If you don't want them, don't take them.
- The NBA gives lucrative 3-year contracts to some of these kids. If they want to get to see them compete for another year or more after they are done with high school and before getting locked into a contract, I can understand that.
- Some kids will get a lot out of going to school for a year - academically and emotionally. To say that all 'one and doners' will try to squeak by in the first semester, then say 'screw it' to the second semester is not accurate.
- If a kid has to go to college for a year, it may force them to take their high school studies more seriously. That is a positive.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

Quoting From YOUR Link

A student-athlete who was not retained by an institution (did not return to the institution or did not return as a full-time student) in the next regular academic term and did not graduate will be a "1 for 2" (1/2) or a "0 for 2" (0/2) depending on whether he or she earns the E point.

 

[Gopher Warrior]

A student-athlete who was not retained by an institution (did not return to the institution or did not return as a full-time student) in the next regular academic term and did not graduate will be a "1 for 2" (1/2) or a "0 for 2" (0/2) depending on whether he or she earns the E point.

Geezus, get a clue. Read the rest of that paragraph where a point can be removed from both the numerator and denominator. Do you honestly still disagree with this?:

Player A is sophomore enrolled for the second semester. The academics are good for that semester, but the student leaves the school after the year to enter the NBA draft. In this situation, the impact of that student on his program's APR is is 1/1. It is not 1/2.

I can't tell if you're trying to be cute with semantics, are thick-headed and don't want to admit that you're wrong, or are just slow.