***OFFICIAL MINNESOTA AT INDIANA STATE NIT IN-GAME THREAD!!!***

[kg21]

Hawkins, Mitchell and Garcia will be 5th year seniors. They are who they are. Carrington might have some areas to improve, but his biggest flaw is that he can't shoot the 3 and I don't see that changing. It's not like the coaching staff has shown much ability to develop talent either.

Let's say they all return. I'd still go with .500 in the Big 10 next year. Then Garcia, and Christie are gone, if they aren't already.

We currently have the last ranked recruiting class in the Big 10.

I wish we'd make the switch and get an established coach just one time. And do it now.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

I agree that we need better talent overall on the roster. There will need to be departures to accomplish that. I certainly don't agree with the belief that some of our older starters can't improve. Basketball players don't stop improving at the age of 21. Go through the historical stats of about 30 random 5th year players this season and see how much more effective many of them were as 5th year players than they were as 3rd year players or even 4th year players.

let's say that certain players have more room for improvement than others. younger players, by virtue of their age and lesser experience, have more room for growth. older players can certainly polish skills and try to improve on certain areas, but in general they will be making smaller improvements. someone like Garcia IMHO is not going to become a different player at this stage of his development. the foundation is more settled.

of course, growth can be limited by the players' individual ceiling. I would say that Christie has a higher ceiling and more room for growth as opposed to Carrington or Mitchell.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Let's say they all return. I'd still go with .500 in the Big 10 next year. Then Garcia, and Christie are gone, if they aren't already.

We currently have the last ranked recruiting class in the Big 10.

I wish we'd make the switch and get an established coach just one time. And do it now.

You are a monster!

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

I agree that we need better talent overall on the roster. There will need to be departures to accomplish that. I certainly don't agree with the belief that some of our older starters can't improve. Basketball players don't stop improving at the age of 21. Go through the historical stats of about 30 random 5th year players this season and see how much more effective many of them were as 5th year players than they were as 3rd year players or even 4th year players.

Yeah, I don't get those thinking guys are finished products as well. Sure, we have a pretty good idea of what kind of player they are late in their career but these are still kids that are maturing and growing and there absolutely is room for improvement in everyone's game.

Rookies in the pro ranks continue to evolve, develop and get better over the course of their career. Just because a guy is a 5th year senior it doesn't mean he is done improving.

Dalton Knecht became a Consensus AA and SEC POY in his fifth season, in addition to a legit projected top 20 first rounder, with his high water mark previously being second team All Big Sky - so this shows that saying older players cannot improve is by no means an absolute.

Jay Wright told the story pre-game about how one of his big men during a championship season went from one of the worst defensive rim protectors (in the nation) to one of the best in a season because it clicked. He also said Bigs can develop quicker than shooters as that’s a skill that can take years to mature/improve. He’s forgotten more about basketball than all is us know combined.

 

[GoodasGold]

A few fricking seconds at the end? Really disappointing. Not sure if he understands that part of being a team. He really loses me on his handling of this.

Hey, he’s inexperienced.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

let's say that certain players have more room for improvement than others. younger players, by virtue of their age and lesser experience, have more room for growth. older players can certainly polish skills and try to improve on certain areas, but in general they will be making smaller improvements. someone like Garcia IMHO is not going to become a different player at this stage of his development. the foundation is more settled.

of course, growth can be limited by the players' individual ceiling. I would say that Christie has a higher ceiling and more room for growth as opposed to Carrington or Mitchell.

So you don’t think Garcia can significantly improve (3-5+%) on his 3s by shooting hundreds of them every day till next season?

 

[cheeseheadgophfan]

As good as Garcia was against Butler he was really a no-show today. He didn't even attempt to drive the ball like he did all game against Butler. That's part of his problem, you never know which Garcia is going to show up.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

Did anyone see Fox Instagram post? Does that mean he might be back?

What did it say?

 

[RockChalk]

Indiana State is a wonderful passing team

For Payne to take the next step he needs, BADLY, to develop a 10, 12, 15 foot shot. When they give that to you you need to take it. You can't try to dribble and spin your way to the hoop every freakin time.

Does Ben ever uncross his arms? My goodness, show some freakin emotion once in a great while.

 

[howeda7]

Does Ben ever uncross his arms? My goodness, show some freakin emotion once in a great while.

He knows Minnesotans loved Bud Grant....

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Indiana State is a wonderful passing team

For Payne to take the next step he needs, BADLY, to develop a 10, 12, 15 foot shot. When they give that to you you need to take it. You can't try to dribble and spin your way to the hoop every freakin time.

Does Ben ever uncross his arms? My goodness, show some freakin emotion once in a great while.

One of the things that really hurts Payne's game is that we don't really have a guard who can attack the basket. Hawkins can a little, but higher level competition are going to let him attempt that floater over and over. Christie has shown flashes, but generally he is a perimeter player.

A guy like Payne should get a ton of garbage points (drive and dish), put backs from a guard driving, etc., those are essentially non-existent in our offense because we don't have anyone who can attack and break down the defense.

Obviously, those are incredibly hard players to find (talented guards who can attack the rim).

 

[EasyThere Pilgrim]

Dalton Knecht became a Consensus AA and SEC POY in his fifth season, in addition to a legit projected top 20 first rounder, with his high water mark previously being second team All Big Sky - so this shows that saying older players cannot improve is by no means an absolute.

Jay Wright told the story pre-game about how one of his big men during a championship season went from one of the worst defensive rim protectors (in the nation) to one of the best in a season because it clicked. He also said Bigs can develop quicker than shooters as that’s a skill that can take years to mature/improve. He’s forgotten more about basketball than all is us know combined.

Are you trying to talk sense in a Meltdown Thread ?

 

[GopherJack]

Indiana State is a wonderful passing team

For Payne to take the next step he needs, BADLY, to develop a 10, 12, 15 foot shot. When they give that to you you need to take it. You can't try to dribble and spin your way to the hoop every freakin time.

Does Ben ever uncross his arms? My goodness, show some freakin emotion once in a great while.

This! When Payne catches the pass in that "no man's land" (for him), 10-15 feet from the basket, he has no choice but to go into spin cycle and try to back his man down. The team would be better off not even passing him the ball there (until he develops a short-range shot)

 

[Johnnyboy18]

This! When Payne catches the pass in that "no man's land" (for him), 10-15 feet from the basket, he has no choice but to go into spin cycle and try to back his man down. The team would be better off not even passing him the ball there (until he develops a short-range shot)

I think I saw him take one in the non conference and make it. And I've yet to see him attempt one since then. Very strange

 

[tjgopher]

So you don’t think Garcia can significantly improve (3-5+%) on his 3s by shooting hundreds of them every day till next season?

Agree, Garcia absolutely has upside next year. His 3pt shooting this year was actually an outlier as much lower than his career average. Just get back to the norm and he improves.

For everyone saying 5th year guys are who they are....c'mon. Most of the great teams in the Big Ten were led by 5th year guys (who are OLD), and who improved by a good margin from their 4th year. Arguably, six of the top eight players in the Big Ten were 5th year seniors, who ALL improved (some substantially):

Examples:

Terrance Shannon (1st team All-Big Ten)
17.2 ppg - 4th year
23.3 ppg - 5th year

Zach Edey (National Player of the Year)
22.3 ppg - 4th year
24.6 ppg - 5th year

Boo Buie (1st team all-Big Ten)
17.3 ppg - 4th year
19.3 ppg - 5th year

Jahmir Young (1st team All-Big Ten)
15.8 ppg - 4th year
20.4 ppg - 5th year

Tyson Walker (2nd team all-Big Ten)
14.8 ppg - 4th year
18.4 ppg - 5th year

Kesei Tominaga (2nd team all-Big Ten)
13.1 ppg - 4th year
15.1 ppg - 5th year

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

Agree, Garcia absolutely has upside next year. His 3pt shooting this year was actually an outlier as much lower than his career average. Just get back to the norm and he improves.

For everyone saying 5th year guys are who they are....c'mon. Most of the great teams in the Big Ten were led by 5th year guys (who are OLD), and who improved by a good margin from their 4th year. Arguably, six of the top eight players in the Big Ten were 5th year seniors, who ALL improved (some substantially):

Examples:

Terrance Shannon (1st team All-Big Ten)
17.2 ppg - 4th year
23.3 ppg - 5th year

Zach Edey (National Player of the Year)
22.3 ppg - 4th year
24.6 ppg - 5th year

Boo Buie (1st team all-Big Ten)
17.3 ppg - 4th year
19.3 ppg - 5th year

Jahmir Young (1st team All-Big Ten)
15.8 ppg - 4th year
20.4 ppg - 5th year

Tyson Walker (2nd team all-Big Ten)
14.8 ppg - 4th year
18.4 ppg - 5th year

Kesei Tominaga (2nd team all-Big Ten)
13.1 ppg - 4th year
15.1 ppg - 5th year

Excellent data, so therefore, nobody who was making the converse argument will not respond. As the old saying goes, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there’s only one set of facts.

I thought Shannon was a underclass man, but he’s now projected as a lottery pick.

This is actually a good argument for Christie to come back and work on his game and let his body develop and mind develop, so he can have a lengthy career in the NBA and be a contributor on a team.

 

[USAF]

Excellent data, so therefore, nobody who was making the converse argument will not respond.

So everybody will?

 

[Spaulding!No!]

The 3 Polar bears at Como were loving the weather on Sunday.

 

[Otis]

Was it just me or did the Sycamore guards look twice as fast as the Gophers?

 

[MonikerSchmoniker45]

Was it just me or did the Sycamore guards look twice as fast as the Gophers?

It was just you.

Would like to add...I think they only seemed faster because they were actually moving and cutting to the basket.

 

[Some Day...Maybe]

Cincy will kick there butt next game

 

[Spottedmuskie]

Well we might have lost to the eventual NIT champs. Still shoulda been in the tourney over Virginia.

 

[Chico Gopher]

As good as Garcia was against Butler he was really a no-show today. He didn't even attempt to drive the ball like he did all game against Butler. That's part of his problem, you never know which Garcia is going to show up.

"That's part of his problem, you never know which Garcia is going to show up.". In talking with coaches, that is one of the more frustrating "In Game" issues for them. A major reason that playing time is an issue for some players.

Just remember that first sentence when you're wondering why a guy with less proven experience, talent or potential doesn't get in a game when you believe they deserve a chance. Guys who have exhibited some consistency in practices and/or games, will generally be given more of a chance to work through it than a guy who has no track record in practices or game situations. BTW, practice performance and consistency is a far bigger deal to most coaches than it is to we fans.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I watched most of that game last night. Those are a couple of good teams. I wish we'd been able to see how the Gophs fared against them without Hawkins on the bench and Garcia in bogus foul trouble. That said, the Gophers are clearly not in either of these teams' league, at least yet. There's a lot of talk about potential for improvement next year, but there's going to have to be a great deal of improvement even to rise to the level of these seeded NIT teams / snubbed NCAA bubble teams.

 

[bga1]

I watched most of that game last night. Those are a couple of good teams. I wish we'd been able to see how the Gophs fared against them without Hawkins on the bench and Garcia in bogus foul trouble. That said, the Gophers are clearly not in either of these teams' league, at least yet. There's a lot of talk about potential for improvement next year, but there's going to have to be a great deal of improvement even to rise to the level of these seeded NIT teams / snubbed NCAA bubble teams.

I agree with you, but a lot of good things can happen to get us there. Recall that in the year prior to our final four team- we got hammered by Tulane at Williams Arena in the NIT. I thought we were a long ways from being ready for the next level. But the guys put the work in during the summer and without too much added to the squad they went from pretty good to great with that work. Everyone added muscle and worked on their game and they came out with a new mindset.

This team needs another scoring guard who can defend and another rebounding/defending big plus the core needs to all come back. If that happens- and don't discount Asuma as an added piece- this will be a VERY good team. Can Ben max them out on the coaching side? I don't know. He's not Clem (yet).

 

[Bad Gopher]

I agree with you, but a lot of good things can happen to get us there. Recall that in the year prior to our final four team- we got hammered by Tulane at Williams Arena in the NIT. I thought we were a long ways from being ready for the next level. But the guys put the work in during the summer and without too much added to the squad they went from pretty good to great with that work. Everyone added muscle and worked on their game and they came out with a new mindset.

This team needs another scoring guard who can defend and another rebounding/defending big plus the core needs to all come back. If that happens- and don't discount Asuma as an added piece- this will be a VERY good team. Can Ben max them out on the coaching side? I don't know. He's not Clem (yet).

I thought about that Tulane game, too, the other night. People back then overreacted to one bad game. That was a good team that had a bad game. This is not that; dese are not dose. That was a NCAA team that got snubbed. This is a bubble NIT team. Also, then, we had confidence that Clem would elevate them to the next level. Ben is not Clem.